Date   

locked Re: Enoree River

Ed Mims
 

David, you are correct. Budd applied the smooth roof prior to June, 1963.

 

Ed

 

From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io [mailto:main@SouthernRailway.groups.io] On Behalf Of David Payne via Groups.Io
Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2019 7:49 PM
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Enoree River

 

 

Thanks.  That's more than I had heard/seen/read before; just assumed that the smooth roof was part of the repair.

Daivd

 

 

In a message dated 8/6/2019 7:46:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, klcenters@... writes:

 

 

Ultimately that probably led to the smooth roof. After Budd repaired the wreck damage it retained the fluted roof for a while. At some point Southern got tired of the leaks and installed a smooth roof.

The thing to remember about a Budd is that the roof was part of the structure of the car. The fluted roof allowed greater strength without the weight cost of structural beams.


On Aug 6, 2019, at 7:37 PM, David Payne via Groups.Io <davidcofga@...> wrote:

 

I thought the smooth roof on 665 came after the "roll-over" at Second Avenue in Columbus.  I don't recall the date, and I'm not going to look for it, but it could have been post-Southern acquisition and following Southern practices.  Of course, a "little" warping and twisting in a roll-over could cause a "few" leaks ...

DPayne

 

 

In a message dated 8/6/2019 7:21:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, klcenters@... writes:

 

SOU 665 (former CofGa 665) at Southern Appalachia Ry Museum is a good example of this. Built by Budd with a fluted roof with smooth panels applied by Southern.


locked Re: Enoree River

David Payne
 


Thanks.  That's more than I had heard/seen/read before; just assumed that the smooth roof was part of the repair.
Daivd


In a message dated 8/6/2019 7:46:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, klcenters@... writes:


Ultimately that probably led to the smooth roof. After Budd repaired the wreck damage it retained the fluted roof for a while. At some point Southern got tired of the leaks and installed a smooth roof.
The thing to remember about a Budd is that the roof was part of the structure of the car. The fluted roof allowed greater strength without the weight cost of structural beams.

On Aug 6, 2019, at 7:37 PM, David Payne via Groups.Io <davidcofga@...> wrote:


I thought the smooth roof on 665 came after the "roll-over" at Second Avenue in Columbus.  I don't recall the date, and I'm not going to look for it, but it could have been post-Southern acquisition and following Southern practices.  Of course, a "little" warping and twisting in a roll-over could cause a "few" leaks ...
DPayne


In a message dated 8/6/2019 7:21:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, klcenters@... writes:

SOU 665 (former CofGa 665) at Southern Appalachia Ry Museum is a good example of this. Built by Budd with a fluted roof with smooth panels applied by Southern.


locked Re: Enoree River

Kevin Centers
 

Ultimately that probably led to the smooth roof. After Budd repaired the wreck damage it retained the fluted roof for a while. At some point Southern got tired of the leaks and installed a smooth roof. 
The thing to remember about a Budd is that the roof was part of the structure of the car. The fluted roof allowed greater strength without the weight cost of structural beams. 

On Aug 6, 2019, at 7:37 PM, David Payne via Groups.Io <davidcofga@...> wrote:


I thought the smooth roof on 665 came after the "roll-over" at Second Avenue in Columbus.  I don't recall the date, and I'm not going to look for it, but it could have been post-Southern acquisition and following Southern practices.  Of course, a "little" warping and twisting in a roll-over could cause a "few" leaks ...
DPayne


In a message dated 8/6/2019 7:21:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, klcenters@... writes:

SOU 665 (former CofGa 665) at Southern Appalachia Ry Museum is a good example of this. Built by Budd with a fluted roof with smooth panels applied by Southern.


locked Re: Enoree River

David Payne
 


I thought the smooth roof on 665 came after the "roll-over" at Second Avenue in Columbus.  I don't recall the date, and I'm not going to look for it, but it could have been post-Southern acquisition and following Southern practices.  Of course, a "little" warping and twisting in a roll-over could cause a "few" leaks ...
DPayne


In a message dated 8/6/2019 7:21:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, klcenters@... writes:

SOU 665 (former CofGa 665) at Southern Appalachia Ry Museum is a good example of this. Built by Budd with a fluted roof with smooth panels applied by Southern.


locked Re: Enoree River

Kevin Centers
 

Curt

Budds were built with fluted roofs. Being of all stainless construction, the cars were-and in many cases still are-practically indestructible. Unfortunately they leak. Sometimes a little silicon will do the trick, but some are a little worse. Southern fixed the issue by applying smooth stainless over the flutes. SOU 665 (former CofGa 665) at Southern Appalachia Ry Museum is a good example of this. Built by Budd with a fluted roof with smooth panels applied by Southern. 

Kevin

On Aug 6, 2019, at 7:02 PM, Curt Fortenberry <curtfortenberry@...> wrote:


Alaska RR got several of the SR coaches (one CofG) after Amtrak took over the Crescent (all Budd built).   Roofs varied among the lot.  Some fluted roofs, some smooth (were these replacement roofs?).  Some natural metal, some black. 

Photos can be found here:  http://www.alaskarails.org/fp/passenger/passenger-roster-retired.html   Scroll down to the 5200 group.

Curt Fortenberry


locked Re: Enoree River

Curt Fortenberry
 


Alaska RR got several of the SR coaches (one CofG) after Amtrak took over the Crescent (all Budd built).   Roofs varied among the lot.  Some fluted roofs, some smooth (were these replacement roofs?).  Some natural metal, some black. 

Photos can be found here:  http://www.alaskarails.org/fp/passenger/passenger-roster-retired.html   Scroll down to the 5200 group.

Curt Fortenberry


locked Re: Low side gons

A&Y Dave in MD
 

When were the ‘24 gons converted FROM 9 ribs?  Is that the ‘45 rebuild?

Dave

Sent from Dave Bott' iPhone

On Aug 6, 2019, at 6:27 PM, Jim King <jimking3@...> wrote:

Bill … glad you recorded the former SOU numbers on the remaining 6 ESHR gons.  That’s important when determining heritage.  These cars had a very long-running history, some starting in 1924 as 9-rib bodies and lasting into the 90s in MOW service (the last 2 cars I show were in 1992 rolling thru Swannanoa with loads of ties).  The ends are the key to understanding some of their heritage; the road numbers “finish the investigation”, IMO.  I’m sure TVRM will accurately restore these cars now that the last road numbers are known.  If they need help with those projects, let me know and I can send hi-rez pix to the “point person”.

 

Jim King

www.smokymountainmodelworks.com

 


--
Jim King
www.smokymountainmodelworks.com


locked Low side gons

Jim King
 

Bill … glad you recorded the former SOU numbers on the remaining 6 ESHR gons.  That’s important when determining heritage.  These cars had a very long-running history, some starting in 1924 as 9-rib bodies and lasting into the 90s in MOW service (the last 2 cars I show were in 1992 rolling thru Swannanoa with loads of ties).  The ends are the key to understanding some of their heritage; the road numbers “finish the investigation”, IMO.  I’m sure TVRM will accurately restore these cars now that the last road numbers are known.  If they need help with those projects, let me know and I can send hi-rez pix to the “point person”.

 

Jim King

www.smokymountainmodelworks.com

 


--
Jim King
www.smokymountainmodelworks.com


locked Re: Enoree River

Bill Schafer
 

If the picture dates from 1972, there’s only one train the sleeper could be operating in - trains 1 and 2, the Southern Crescent. I notice the neighboring sleeper and dining car also still have silver roofs, even though the SR monogram has been applied next to the doorway of the Emory River. I had thought that the monograms were applied the same time that the roofs were painted black, but apparently I was wrong. 

TVRM’s Budd coach currently under refurbishment, SOU 832, will (I think) emerge with a stainless roof again, and be without the SR monogram, which would be correct for pre-1968 cars. Based on the Kimsey photo, stainless roofs with the monogram are correct for the 1968-1972 period at the least. 

—Bill

On Aug 6, 2019, at 6:10 PM, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:

I’ve attached a photo of Sou 3252 “Emory River” taken Atlanta, GA 4-5-72 O.W. Kimsey, Jr. photo. Bill Schafer may be able to tell us which train the car is operarting in?

Note the unpainted roof..

I’ve also attached two memos from the SRHA archives - Hayne Shop files that may be of interest although the unpainted roof in 1972 is not explained. (More research is needed….)

Ike

<Sou 3252 "Emory River" 10-6 Pullman Atlanta, GA 4-5-72.jpg>

<1957-12-12 black pass car roof memo.jpg>

<11-5-57 Black Roof On #835.jpg>


On Aug 6, 2019, at 2:49 PM, Doug Alexander <doug_alexander@...> wrote:

Enoree River was built for the Crescent in 1949 and began service on that train in 1950. While it might have been used on other trains from time to time, Enoree’s home was 37 & 38.

Doug



locked Re: Enoree River

Kevin Centers
 

Bill

As a matter of fact SRHA does have records of some movements of the Enoree River. The car shows being inspected on 12/11/56 and 12/12/56 in Charlotte. The first day it was in The Southerner and the second day is was part of The Crescent’s consist. The car line number on 47/48 was SR41 and on 37/38 the car line was S21.  
The first inspection wasn’t bad but did note that the car made excessive squeaking noises and the center plates/trucks, coupler carrier irons and buffer diaphragm mechanisms should be greased to make the car quieter. It was also noted that the car was riding 1-1/2” low on the vestibule end and 3-1/2” low on the blind end. This caused issues with coupling the tightlock interlocking couplers as well as matching up footplates so there was no tripping hazard. 
Apparently Pullman or Southern was able to do some quick work and correct the issues. On the second day the inspector made the interesting note that “This car is now ok and rides good, it has no noises and matches up very good (footplates between cars). Get ‘em all like this one.”  
These inspection forms came from the archives in Chattanooga. I am in the process of transcribing the info from scanned forms into a spreadsheet. This kind of info is invaluable in that inspectors not only noted defects with the cars, but also the train numbers, dates, locations, and car line number. 

Kevin


On Aug 6, 2019, at 4:39 PM, Bill Schafer <bill4501@...> wrote:

It was originally assigned to the Crescent, and the car ran in that train off and on for years. It also ran on the Southerner in the 1960s, according to some consists I have seen. Does anybody know if the Enoree River operated on other Southern trains or even in Pullman charter service prior to, say, 1965?

On Aug 6, 2019, at 12:15 PM, mclain2004@... wrote:

In which passenger train was Pullman “Enoree River” mostly used?


locked Re: Enoree River

George Eichelberger
 

I’ve attached a photo of Sou 3252 “Emory River” taken Atlanta, GA 4-5-72 O.W. Kimsey, Jr. photo. Bill Schafer may be able to tell us which train the car is operarting in?

Note the unpainted roof..

I’ve also attached two memos from the SRHA archives - Hayne Shop files that may be of interest although the unpainted roof in 1972 is not explained. (More research is needed….)

Ike





On Aug 6, 2019, at 2:49 PM, Doug Alexander <doug_alexander@...> wrote:

Enoree River was built for the Crescent in 1949 and began service on that train in 1950. While it might have been used on other trains from time to time, Enoree’s home was 37 & 38.

Doug


locked Re: Southern dining car 3307 and OC 5 to TVRM

George Eichelberger
 

Dan:

The L&N cabs were acquired by the L&NHS, I’ll ask what their plans are for them. We were told the ACL/SALHS was not interested but SRHA does not have those items, (The MD&S low side gon is particularly nice.)

SRHA was supposed to get, most of the other WrightTrak items but, offhand, I remember only the TC box car. Rick Bell has the entire inventory, I’ll ask him to give us the details…. We will follow up with Gary but…..

As I mentioned, SRHA is interested in preserving and promoting accurate Southern Railway models. Even though we are not a “modeling” organization, we believe that there is a considerable cross-over between SR historians and modelers and both are important to the Association. (Not to mention, the SRHA archives are the best possible source to model anything “Southern”.)

Ike



On Aug 6, 2019, at 3:33 PM, Dan Miller <danieljmiller@...> wrote:

Ike,

Do you know what happened to non-Southern Wright Trak models?  I had an order in for several kits (Seaboard ventilator boxcars and NYC caboose), but it looks like I won't be getting them from Wright Trak themselves.

Dan Miller

On Mon, Aug 5, 2019 at 4:01 PM George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:
Glen:

We intend to have the Southern bay window cab available in the next month or so. To keep the price down SRHA will provide only the resin castings (possibly not including the interior as it is very difficult to appreciate through the windows) and the etched end railing, ladder and roof walk parts from Plano. Modelers can provide their own trucks, couplers and decals.

Instructions and history will be on the SRHA web site and the complete package of 11" x 17” Stencil, General Arrangement and Brake drawings will be re-issued and available from the SRHA Company Store.

My personal second model to produce is the 52’-6” gondola but no decision will be made until we have feedback from modelers.

Ike



On Aug 5, 2019, at 6:46 PM, Glen Bole via Groups.Io <sgbole@...> wrote:

Ike,

Is there a expected date that we will see these ex Wright Track kits available again from SRHA?

Glen Bole


-----Original Message-----
From: George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...>
To: main@southernrailway.groups.io <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io>
Cc: ModelingTheSouthern@southernrailway.groups.io <ModelingTheSouthern@SouthernRailway.groups.io>
Sent: Mon, Aug 5, 2019 3:39 pm
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Southern dining car 3307 and OC 5 to TVRM

Re: Jim’s model of the Southern 40’ lo side gons….

May I add that I believe, and have told many people, that it is one of the best, most accurate HO models ever made!

It is just one of the reasons SRHA acquired all of the Southern prototypes from WrightTrak. The Association will make the resin castings of as many of the WrightTrak models available to Southern modelers as possible. We never expect to recover SRHA's purchase cost but felt simply preserving the masters and molds was something the group needed to do.

Ike


On Aug 5, 2019, at 4:47 PM, Jim King <jimking3@...> wrote:

I’m always thrilled when Southern history is saved, especially for future service.  The 2 gons have particular interest to me because I’ve produced the 1945 PS rebuild in HO, S and O (shipping now).  I know TVRM is very good when it comes to accurately restoring equipment.  The gons, possibly from Eastern Shore RR, have a very diverse history.  ESHR had, I think, 5 of these low sides in service as ferry idlers.  Attached are pix of 2.  They appear identical (PS end with darts is a clue) 11-rib style from the 1945 rebuild program.  It’s doubtful a car number is still visible on the centersill but that would be all that’s needed to determine a car’s history.  Glad they are saved … likely the only ones to be so.
 
Jim King
 

-- 
Jim King
www.smokymountainmodelworks.com<Eastern Shore 583 Little Creek VA 8-3-2002 R. Underwood Kodachrome lo rez.jpg><Eastern Shore 581 Little Creek VA 8-3-2002 R. Underwood Kodachrome lo rez.jpg>






locked Re: Southern dining car 3307 and OC 5 to TVRM

Dan Miller
 

Ike,

Do you know what happened to non-Southern Wright Trak models?  I had an order in for several kits (Seaboard ventilator boxcars and NYC caboose), but it looks like I won't be getting them from Wright Trak themselves.

Dan Miller


On Mon, Aug 5, 2019 at 4:01 PM George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:
Glen:

We intend to have the Southern bay window cab available in the next month or so. To keep the price down SRHA will provide only the resin castings (possibly not including the interior as it is very difficult to appreciate through the windows) and the etched end railing, ladder and roof walk parts from Plano. Modelers can provide their own trucks, couplers and decals.

Instructions and history will be on the SRHA web site and the complete package of 11" x 17” Stencil, General Arrangement and Brake drawings will be re-issued and available from the SRHA Company Store.

My personal second model to produce is the 52’-6” gondola but no decision will be made until we have feedback from modelers.

Ike



On Aug 5, 2019, at 6:46 PM, Glen Bole via Groups.Io <sgbole@...> wrote:

Ike,

Is there a expected date that we will see these ex Wright Track kits available again from SRHA?

Glen Bole


-----Original Message-----
From: George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...>
To: main@southernrailway.groups.io <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io>
Cc: ModelingTheSouthern@southernrailway.groups.io <ModelingTheSouthern@SouthernRailway.groups.io>
Sent: Mon, Aug 5, 2019 3:39 pm
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Southern dining car 3307 and OC 5 to TVRM

Re: Jim’s model of the Southern 40’ lo side gons….

May I add that I believe, and have told many people, that it is one of the best, most accurate HO models ever made!

It is just one of the reasons SRHA acquired all of the Southern prototypes from WrightTrak. The Association will make the resin castings of as many of the WrightTrak models available to Southern modelers as possible. We never expect to recover SRHA's purchase cost but felt simply preserving the masters and molds was something the group needed to do.

Ike


On Aug 5, 2019, at 4:47 PM, Jim King <jimking3@...> wrote:

I’m always thrilled when Southern history is saved, especially for future service.  The 2 gons have particular interest to me because I’ve produced the 1945 PS rebuild in HO, S and O (shipping now).  I know TVRM is very good when it comes to accurately restoring equipment.  The gons, possibly from Eastern Shore RR, have a very diverse history.  ESHR had, I think, 5 of these low sides in service as ferry idlers.  Attached are pix of 2.  They appear identical (PS end with darts is a clue) 11-rib style from the 1945 rebuild program.  It’s doubtful a car number is still visible on the centersill but that would be all that’s needed to determine a car’s history.  Glad they are saved … likely the only ones to be so.
 
Jim King
 

-- 
Jim King
www.smokymountainmodelworks.com<Eastern Shore 583 Little Creek VA 8-3-2002 R. Underwood Kodachrome lo rez.jpg><Eastern Shore 581 Little Creek VA 8-3-2002 R. Underwood Kodachrome lo rez.jpg>



locked Re: Enoree River

Bill Schafer
 

It was originally assigned to the Crescent, and the car ran in that train off and on for years. It also ran on the Southerner in the 1960s, according to some consists I have seen. Does anybody know if the Enoree River operated on other Southern trains or even in Pullman charter service prior to, say, 1965?

On Aug 6, 2019, at 12:15 PM, mclain2004@... wrote:

In which passenger train was Pullman “Enoree River” mostly used?


locked Re: Enoree River

Doug Alexander
 

Enoree River was built for the Crescent in 1949 and began service on that train in 1950. While it might have been used on other trains from time to time, Enoree’s home was 37 & 38.

Doug

Sent from my portable UNIVAC Computational Machine.


locked Enoree River

Roy McLain
 

In which passenger train was Pullman “Enoree River” mostly used?


locked Re: Southern dining car 3307 and OC 5 to TVRM

Doug Alexander
 

I;m with Marv; I'd much rather see Clover and other Pullman cars in Pullman Green.

I once asked the late Bob Soule why they had chosen Tuscan red for their cars, that being a more N&W and Pennsy color than Southern.  He said, if I recall correctly, that the decision was driven by the donation of something like near 1,000 gallons of the Tuscan color.  That seemed to me to be a perfectly rational explanation.

Doug A.


locked Re: Southern dining car 3307 and OC 5 to TVRM

Bill Schafer
 

TVRM didn’t paint it in Pullman green; that’s the way it was painted when TVRM received it. I was never comfortable with this paint job because the person who lettered it used zeroes instead of letter “o”s in the name Clover Colony when the car was lettered. That’s not a mistake Pullman would have made. 

Its present scheme (maroon, lettered for “Tennessee Valley” with “Pullman” at the corners) was chosen to depict what the car would look like if it had been divested by the Pullman Company to the Tennessee Valley RR, circa 1948 or so, but that was leased back to Pullman for operation. 
 
—Bill


On Aug 6, 2019, at 9:57 AM, Marv Clemons <mclemonsjr@...> wrote:

Right on, Ed.  I'm still waiting for CLOVER COLONY to return to her original Pullman green as first painted by TVRM, seen below on an early Summerville excursion.

<Clover Colony111.jpg>


locked Re: Southern dining car 3307 and OC 5 to TVRM

Marv Clemons
 

Right on, Ed.  I'm still waiting for CLOVER COLONY to return to her original Pullman green as first painted by TVRM, seen below on an early Summerville excursion.


locked Re: Southern dining car 3307 and OC 5 to TVRM

Marv Clemons
 

OC #9 is a personal favorite and one of the first SR office cars I recall from my time at Birmingham Terminal Station from 1963-65. Here's a scan from a slide I took but forgot to tag.  I know it's not Birmingham, but could it be Knoxville?

Marv Clemons

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