Date   

locked Appendix to Contracts Book Index to Vol IX

George Eichelberger
 

Although the terminology does not appear to be commonly used, a few of the more than 23 bound SR contract books include an "Index Appendix", The example from Volume iX is attached. It groups contracts by subject rather than as individual items. The contract numbers are the same as on the covers.

Ike


locked Re: V1 of Southern Railway Contracts Covers Catalog

sgwarner88@...
 

Ike-.  Looks like a good reproduction of a typical Jt. Facility agreement, of which I made, amended, or supplemented over much of my career.  I am glad to see that the agreements are being organized and were saved.  While I was there I fought a continuing battle to not destroy them, but others in my group pushed for destruction of the contracts that I used every day.  And the 3 yrs. Trashing decree didn’t help.

 

While I am involved in other thing these days, if anyone needs interpretation or understanding of any facility, I will be glad to review and explain the intent and usage/history of the facility.  For instance, this agreement was located in downtown Appalachia just east of the L&N depot and west of the Westmoreland Transloader which used the old SR Appalachia Yard until going into Andover.  I inspected the track about two times/week in the 70’s, although of course the IRR tracks were not needed after SR getting the IR. We still interchanged with the L&N there.   I always was fascinated by these agreements, because if one took the time to go over the history of the parties and locations involved, one could develop a 10,000’ view of the context of a specific agreement.  Such as the East Gulf, W. Va./ Crab Orchard Stone Coal Jct. C&O – Vgn. early 1900’s agreements, all of which were needed to break up the Piney River and Paint Creek Railroad in early 1900.

 

I also managed to “salvage” many ancient maps and terminal maps from destruction during my days at SR/NS, and have them here in my files.  If anyone wants to review them for the purpose of copying them, I will be glad to meet them to discuss (but I still want to keep them for now).

 

Stephen

 

From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io> On Behalf Of George Eichelberger
Sent: Monday, March 18, 2019 10:12 AM
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io
Subject: [SouthernRailway] V1 of Southern Railway Contracts Covers Catalog

 

One of the on-going SRHA archives projects has been to scan as many of the 1,100+ Southern Railway contract books as possible. The first pass scanning the unbound contracts we have is done.
Now, we will do re-scans as needed, scan other contracts in bound volumes and attempt to beg, borrow or purchase the two of three bound volumes we are missing. (Two "disappeared" as we were leaving Kennesaw.)

The entire scan file is very large and we need to scan, clean up and make searchable the indexes the Southern prepared each time they bound a group of contracts together to distribute to the executives. More than 700 covers have been scanned
and included in a thumbnail "catalog". Version 1 is available (for a short time) on Google Drive using the link:

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1wbNf3y9IKO0SovGz9_eGkrjIMq39TSO9?usp=sharing

Admittedly, some contracts are "dry as a bone" and not of much use to Southern modelers or historians. The majority are rich sources of data never before seen by many people. There are several different categories: Union stations and shared facilities include all of the details about which railroad owns and controls a facility, what the tenant road will pay, etc. So/me include structure drawings or track layouts included in the text. Junctions and interlocking are particularly useful because they provide construction and modification dates, track details and even the arrangement of the "interlocking" bars used in the hand-thrown versions. As the contracts include agreements from the 1880s into the 1960s, it is not unusual to find multiple versions for the same location. Earlier versions are either modified or cancelled by later agreements. Together they provide a useful history of that specific depot or junction.

Trackage rights agreements are very detailed and go from miles of shared main lines to joint use of street trackage or an industrial siding. Drawings are typically included to illustrate what the agreement covers.

Rolling stock has its own version; purchase contracts and trust agreements typically list what equipment/which car or loco builder it came from, etc. Usually as many as 50 pages, only the cover and pages that list the rolling stock to be included have been scanned. As primarily "banking" documents, they include a lot of detail about when bond payments are to be made, etc.

I have attached a PDF copy of contract No. 861 between the Southern and the Interstate Railroad for trackage at Appalachia, VA. It includes a drawing of the track layout at Appalachia. The joint agreement contracts include whichever other railroad(s) were involved.
Cincinnati Union Terminal, Jacksonville Terminal, Atlanta Terminal Station and Union Station in Washington, DC are all covered by different contracts.

The thumbnail size text may be difficult to read, or the color cover did not scan well but for "V-1" we think it useful for people to at least see and understand what this collection is all about. SRHA will make full copies of all of the scanned contracts available in the near future.If someone is particularly interested, we can provide a limited number, particularly for anyone willing to write articles for TIES.

Your questions or comments please!

Ike

PS You may need to download the entire file from Google then click on the unumbered html file. Your browser should then show the entire catalog in sequence.


locked V1 of Southern Railway Contracts Covers Catalog

George Eichelberger
 

One of the on-going SRHA archives projects has been to scan as many of the 1,100+ Southern Railway contract books as possible. The first pass scanning the unbound contracts we have is done.
Now, we will do re-scans as needed, scan other contracts in bound volumes and attempt to beg, borrow or purchase the two of three bound volumes we are missing. (Two "disappeared" as we were leaving Kennesaw.)

The entire scan file is very large and we need to scan, clean up and make searchable the indexes the Southern prepared each time they bound a group of contracts together to distribute to the executives. More than 700 covers have been scanned
and included in a thumbnail "catalog". Version 1 is available (for a short time) on Google Drive using the link:

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1wbNf3y9IKO0SovGz9_eGkrjIMq39TSO9?usp=sharing

Admittedly, some contracts are "dry as a bone" and not of much use to Southern modelers or historians. The majority are rich sources of data never before seen by many people. There are several different categories: Union stations and shared facilities include all of the details about which railroad owns and controls a facility, what the tenant road will pay, etc. So/me include structure drawings or track layouts included in the text. Junctions and interlocking are particularly useful because they provide construction and modification dates, track details and even the arrangement of the "interlocking" bars used in the hand-thrown versions. As the contracts include agreements from the 1880s into the 1960s, it is not unusual to find multiple versions for the same location. Earlier versions are either modified or cancelled by later agreements. Together they provide a useful history of that specific depot or junction.

Trackage rights agreements are very detailed and go from miles of shared main lines to joint use of street trackage or an industrial siding. Drawings are typically included to illustrate what the agreement covers.

Rolling stock has its own version; purchase contracts and trust agreements typically list what equipment/which car or loco builder it came from, etc. Usually as many as 50 pages, only the cover and pages that list the rolling stock to be included have been scanned. As primarily "banking" documents, they include a lot of detail about when bond payments are to be made, etc.

I have attached a PDF copy of contract No. 861 between the Southern and the Interstate Railroad for trackage at Appalachia, VA. It includes a drawing of the track layout at Appalachia. The joint agreement contracts include whichever other railroad(s) were involved.
Cincinnati Union Terminal, Jacksonville Terminal, Atlanta Terminal Station and Union Station in Washington, DC are all covered by different contracts.

The thumbnail size text may be difficult to read, or the color cover did not scan well but for "V-1" we think it useful for people to at least see and understand what this collection is all about. SRHA will make full copies of all of the scanned contracts available in the near future.If someone is particularly interested, we can provide a limited number, particularly for anyone willing to write articles for TIES.

Your questions or comments please!

Ike

PS You may need to download the entire file from Google then click on the unumbered html file. Your browser should then show the entire catalog in sequence.


locked Re: Southern bulkhead flat 116184

Robert Graham
 

Decking is wood clearly in the photo. Also shown on the print as the "wood grain" is drawn into the detail of several of the planks. The thickness, type of wood and specified finish is likely in the detail drawings or bill of materials. No way it would not be specified somewhere.

Bob Graham


---- George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:

To answer a question about the decking on Southern Greenville Steel Car bulkhead flats, here is the title block half of GSC drawing 36028 but I do not see any references to the planks being wood or steel. The photo of Southern 116184, I took at Atlanta July 2001 shows their wood decks clearly.

The early Intermountain (?) center beam flat may provide a starting point for one of the bulkhead versions. The tie down ratchets on the kit are very nice and starting with an underframe and deck would save a lot of scratchbuilding. I have lost track of which Southern car had the same truck centers although that length could be modified rather easily.

Ike



locked Re: Southern 72747

George Eichelberger
 

Kevin:

One of the local fans told us the railroad hired a contractor periodically to salvage the coal and scrap the cars. Other than rust on the wheels, there was no way to tell how long the car laid there but it had been some time.

The gate onto mine property was a short distance past the switch points beside a public road. The tipple was maybe 1/4 mile inside the fence so the car must have built up some speed before it was diverted. I do not know if it would be considered a "derailment" as far as the Southern was concerned?

I took multiple rolls of Kodachrome while a group of us from Tampa and N.C. railfanned the area. What seemed like an excessive number of slides then was really nothing when we realize how much coal mining has declined in SW Virginia.

Ike

PS Kevin Centers is the SRHA Treasurer and a BOD member. A volunteer 501c3 organization simply cannot function without good financial records and controls, Kevin provide both......


locked Re: Southern 72747

Kevin Centers
 

Ike

I noticed that too. Suspect they took whatever was easily reusable and left the rest. When was the derailment?

Kevin

On Mar 17, 2019, at 3:52 PM, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:

I just noticed the photos of derailed Sou 72747 show the knuckles removed from both couplers. Is that some kind of universal “sign” that the car is permanently out of service?

Ike




locked need help: Southern low side gon lettering 1929

A&Y Dave in MD
 

Hi all,

I need your interpretive eye help.  I'm going to create a Ghost decal for the gondola pictured below. Other than one rib off (8 instead of 9) the Ertl model is almost perfect for this number series (add a .005 gusset at each corner top and some archer rivets and choose some Yarmouth twist stirrups and other than the missing side rib, it's really close.  Yes, the Speedwitch Media 1937 gon (of which I have a couple of kits) may have the ribs, but I got 3 Ertl gons for $16 on eBay recently so I can live without the rib for the price difference in developing a fleet for my layout.

The photo is a blow up from the Duke University construction photos of 1928-1929. You can get the full photo at
https://repository.duke.edu/dc/dukeconstruction/19290301WC0174 This is the West Campus Progress Picture #174.  This photo is dated 1929 and the gondola built date is '24.  I'm going to say this gon made it to '34 without repainting, just usual reweighing and repacking.   I'll make a simplified '34 scheme later, but I like the way the data are laid out here.   So any help would be appreciated.  There are several similar series Southern gondolas as well as other cars from other railroads in this photo series if you're not familiar with it. Attached are part of two lettering diagrams from the Southern, one for 1921 and one for 1928 (I don't have a gondola specific lettering diagram for that time). They may give you more of a clue than I got.   Anyway, on to my help request!

First panel from left.  No idea what that tiny writing next to the grab is, but I'm guessing it might be the "United States Safety Appliances Standard" lettering found on both the '21 and '28 lettering guides.

Second panel.  I'm comfortable that the CAPY has a bracket for the top row "958 CU FT" and the next row "100,000 LBS"   as I saw those values in Note K for an ORER entry for this series of gondolas and while the bracket is not in the box car lettering diagram, I can see it here and I will include it.  But the next line should be "LT WT 40000" and I cannot tell if that is just some scuff marks or is there something else stencilled there.   I'm confident the next line is "LOAD LIMIT 129000".  That tiny writing below could be repack data.  I don't think it is chalk marks.  Looks too regular. Guesses?

Third panel.  I'm trying to figure out the small lettering above the rivets here, but no clue unless that is repack data (but they all cannot be repack data).  About all I could even guess is that bottom right corner is "GA" or "KA".   Clearly under the rivets is "BUILT 7-1924"

Any suggestions or help from other sources would be much appreciated!

Dave Bott



--

Sent from David Bott's desktop pc


locked Re: Southern 72747

Dick Fisher
 

Ike,

The Stonega line ends at the Wentz mine and transloader.

Dick

On 3/17/2019 11:08 AM, George Eichelberger wrote:
Here are three photos of Southern 70-ton hopper 72747 derailed and on its side just outside the mine at the very north end of the Roda or Stonega Interstate mine spurs. The tipple is uphill to the left. The switch, like a safety track, was normally set for the siding to keep cars from running away down the valley. Although rails had been removed to insure cars were derailed, note one photo taken from the other end shows the siding curving off to the left. We did not walk that line but I suspect it was a derail or safety track rather than a lead to another mine.

Ike


locked Re: Southern 72747

George Eichelberger
 

I just noticed the photos of derailed Sou 72747 show the knuckles removed from both couplers. Is that some kind of universal “sign” that the car is permanently out of service?

Ike


locked PARTIAL list of Southern’s 50-ton articulated hoppers.

George Eichelberger
 

Here is a PARTIAL list of Southern’s 50-ton articulated hoppers.
 
There are more than 100,000 spreadsheet entries for Southern locomotives, freight and passenger cars that have been transcribed from records in the SRHA archives. If anyone is seriously interested in Southern or Central of Georgia rolling stock, they need to make a plan to get to the SRHA archives at TVRM and help with researching the data there and organizing it so it to be published.
 
The list of work session dates is on the SRHA home page and someone is usually there several times per month.
 
We would like to get things as organized as possible before the archives’ “grand opening” during the SRHA convention.
 
Ike


locked Southern bulkhead flat 116184

George Eichelberger
 

To answer a question about the decking on Southern Greenville Steel Car bulkhead flats, here is the title block half of GSC drawing 36028 but I do not see any references to the planks being wood or steel. The photo of Southern 116184, I took at Atlanta July 2001 shows their wood decks clearly.

The early Intermountain (?) center beam flat may provide a starting point for one of the bulkhead versions. The tie down ratchets on the kit are very nice and starting with an underframe and deck would save a lot of scratchbuilding. I have lost track of which Southern car had the same truck centers although that length could be modified rather easily.

Ike


locked Southern 72747

George Eichelberger
 

Here are three photos of Southern 70-ton hopper 72747 derailed and on its side just outside the mine at the very north end of the Roda or Stonega Interstate mine spurs. The tipple is uphill to the left. The switch, like a safety track, was normally set for the siding to keep cars from running away down the valley. Although rails had been removed to insure cars were derailed, note one photo taken from the other end shows the siding curving off to the left. We did not walk that line but I suspect it was a derail or safety track rather than a lead to another mine.

Ike


locked SRHA Archives Work Session this weekend

Jim Thurston
 

The SRHA Archives Work Session for March will be this weekend, Friday & Saturday, March 15 & 16.
 
The schedule for future Work Sessions may be found at SRHA.net (on the first page)
 
The remaining sessions for 2019 are as follows:
 
Apr 26-27
May 17-18
Jun 21-22
Jul 19-20
Aug 16-17
Sep 20-21
Oct 18-19
Nov 15-16
Dec 13-14
 
If you want to come at other times, please send me an email.
 
Ike is recovering well from his hip replacement and should be able to come this weekend.
 
We continue our extended Christmas celebration by opening more presents (unprocessed boxes - surprises!)
 
Hope you can come!
 
Jim Thurston


locked Re: Southern Railway Bridge Colors

Kevin von der Lippe
 

Thank you for all of you help.  I have forwarded all the comments to the City of Greensboro.

 

Kevin von der Lippe


locked Re: Southern Railway Bridge Colors

sgwarner88@...
 

I also do not know with authenticity the colors of steel structures in the 30's, but I do know that SR "greased" its steel structures in the 70's to preserve the steel. However, SR had a unit train fall through a bridge into the Big Warrior River in the late 70's, and I was there during the restoration process.  It was a through truss of which a hanger had broken.  So SR hired an ultrasonic inspection of the entire trestle, after scraping it clean.  I watched them run the tests (and I wrote the Bridge Inspection Standard Procedure), and they discovered multiple cracked hangers that the grease hid.  So SR/Joel DeValle (I believe) ordered all steel to be degreased and uncovered after that.


locked Re: Southern Railway Bridge Colors

Robert Graham
 

While the Sou Ry steel bridges I shot photos of in the 1960's, 1970's, 1980's were silver in color with either black or green lettering like the one Carl Ardrey provided, I believe in the 1940's and earlier, they were painted black with either white or silver or aluminum lettering. I have attached a photo from Charlotte NC made April 24 1947 of a P&N interurban car coming in to Mint St station. The Sou Ry main line to Columbia SC passed over the P&N station approach tracks (just about where BOA Stadium is now) at that time before being relocated when the old passenger station was closed and SOU lines relocated in and around Charlotte as a result circa 1960 or thereabouts. While a B&W photo, the steel trestle girders are clearly a dark color with light lettering. I suspect this was also the case in Greensboro, as bridge colors were usually system wide and not subject to division preferences.

Also, to answer Bill Schafer's question regarding the presence of the Southern Railway letterboard on the Davie St overpass in Greensboro, it is long gone, removed by NS about the same time the other SOU bridge lettering was removed a few years after the merger. I don't think it was saved, but do not know, but if not, too bad.

Bob Graham



---- Kevin von der Lippe <kevin.vonderlippe@...> wrote:

The City of Greensboro is working with NS and the NCRR to paint the various railroad bridges within the city limits, and would like to paint them to be historically correct for the Southern Railway.  Does anyone know what the standard paint colors were for the the railroad in the 1930s or 40s?

Thank you,

Kevin von der Lippe



locked Drawbridge questions

Ron Stafford
 

Can anyone cite the builder(s) and dates for the Charleston Division drawbridges over the Congaree River (SC Line MP 102.6) and over the Wateree River on the SB Line (MP 5.2)?

Also looking for the dates when they were replaced with the current (non-draw) structures.

Thanks,

Ron Stafford


locked Re: Southern Railway Bridge Colors

Carl Ardrey
 

This structure still in use by the Aiken RR is between Aiken and Warrenville.

CEA

On February 25, 2019 at 10:10 AM Kevin von der Lippe <kevin.vonderlippe@...> wrote:

The City of Greensboro is working with NS and the NCRR to paint the various railroad bridges within the city limits, and would like to paint them to be historically correct for the Southern Railway.  Does anyone know what the standard paint colors were for the the railroad in the 1930s or 40s?

Thank you,

Kevin von der Lippe


locked Re: Southern Railway Bridge Colors

Bill Schafer
 

Kevin Van Der Lippe:

I don’t know how the underpasses were painted in the 1940s, but when I was living there in the early-1970s, the McGee Street/Davie Street underpass was a dirty gray or silver, with maybe black underneath. The letter board bearing the name “Southern Railway” was silver too, and from the accompanying photo, the letters were raised and appear to have been painted black (I wonder if this letter board is still there). This is pre-Amtrak train 5, which Southern called the Piedmont, leaving Greensboro at 7:00 am in early 1971. 

35 SOU train 5 leaving Greensboro crossing Elm St. behind 6148 FP7 Mar 1971 GWS photo.jpeg

Here’s another view, taken later the same year, that shows a little bit of the underpass. In this view, it looks to me as if the underpass is silver, and that it needs a paint job. 

SOU 6308 leads two more SD24s across Elm St Greensboro NC with train 159 1971 Bill Schafer photo.tiff

Hope this helps.

—Bill Schafer

On Feb 25, 2019, at 11:10 AM, Kevin von der Lippe <kevin.vonderlippe@...> wrote:

The City of Greensboro is working with NS and the NCRR to paint the various railroad bridges within the city limits, and would like to paint them to be historically correct for the Southern Railway.  Does anyone know what the standard paint colors were for the the railroad in the 1930s or 40s?

Thank you,

Kevin von der Lippe


locked Southern Railway Bridge Colors

Kevin von der Lippe
 

The City of Greensboro is working with NS and the NCRR to paint the various railroad bridges within the city limits, and would like to paint them to be historically correct for the Southern Railway.  Does anyone know what the standard paint colors were for the the railroad in the 1930s or 40s?

Thank you,

Kevin von der Lippe