Date   

locked Re: Southern 390399 "Ortner's 10,000th Rapid Discharge Car" Questions

Ryan Harris
 

I am familiar with Dan's model and it is fantastic. I understand why he built only one. And I didn't mean to diminish any of the work he did on that model by making the point that the kitbash boiled down to removing the center bays. Obviously it was much more involved than that and he left no stone unturned.

I am not interested in doing that kind of a 99% kitbash because I want 40 of them. Instead the kitbash I'm talking about does boil down to removing the center bay, adding a few details and living with a lot of things that aren't right. This is the type of kitbash I meant when I said it would be easy. I can't imagine many people would be willing to even attempt Dan's kitbash. Like you said, he only did it once.

My plan for a good enough kitbash is to 3D print some new parts, including an insert for the open area created by removing the center bay, new brake and door air equipment, and a set of interior braces. I'll have to ignore the lack of rivets and the embossed beads on the panels. I might not worry about the channels in place of the side stakes at the carbody ends, but I'll have to see about that. When I start with an MDC Roundhouse car, as in the case of the 10,000th Ortner car, I'll add the door opening hardware and do some additional work on the ends that the Athearn RTR version won't need.

Now if I wanted to build a model that was similarly faithful to the Southern version, I wouldn't kitbash it and I certainly wouldn't start with the MDC Roundhouse model. Instead, I'd draw it in 3D and break it down as a flat kit to 3D print. Then I'd have resin copies made of the individual parts.

I did something similar after I damaged my WrightTrak radio car, minus the resin casting part. I had already made drawings of the car back in the 90s before I was aware WrightTrak even existed. From those drawings I scratchbuilt a model from styrene many years ago. Later on I acquired one of the WrightTrak resin kits, but I damaged the body. So I went back to my old CAD drawings and modified them from 2D to 3D and then designed a kit, which I 3D printed. Here's how that turned out:

https://pbase.com/mecrharris/image/167249896

But doing all that -- while certainly easier than Dan's involved kitbash process -- would cost a small fortune. A much smaller fortune can instead be spent fixing the things that matter to me: four bays instead of five, interior bracing details, adding door opening hardware, adding ladders at all four corners, etc. It won't be a perfect model, but again I need forty of them so I'm not aiming for perfection here. 

--
Ryan Harris
Fort Worth, TX


locked Re: Southern 390399 "Ortner's 10,000th Rapid Discharge Car" Questions

George Eichelberger
 

“Thin” Southern road name lettering

For years, I have thought, and told people, that SRHA did not have a stencil drawing of the last version of the “thin” Southern road name lettering. 

In the years before the N&W/Sou merger the SR Mechanical Dept. produced fewer and fewer new equipment drawings, relying on car builder drawings exclusively. The attached Ortner “stenciling” drawing OC-5075-7 is for 100T aggregate cars Sou 1109950-109999 from New Car Program (NCP)-226 and apparently was never traced by the Southern.

We will re-scan both the 35mm aperture card and the original drawings (in the archives?) to improve on this poor quality example. I’ll make sure scans of this, Ortner drawings 332-151 & 152 and get whatever other similar drawings we can locate to Hubert Mask at Mask Island in case he is interested in producing decals. (The thin lettering, in green, was also used on the last order(s) of 100T covered hoppers but we need to confirm the dimensions are the same.)

Ike




locked Re: Southern 390399 "Ortner's 10,000th Rapid Discharge Car" Questions

Stuart Thayer
 

Ryan,

In regards to your assertion that the SOU 4-bay ortners are an easy kitbash, I have to disagree.  My good friend Dan Bourque built one of these cars and he said to get the model correct it was an extremely difficult kitbash and one that he is not planning to ever try again due to it's complexity.  You have to essentially cut an MDC/Athearn 5-bay model apart and move the bays, redo the interior slope sheets between the bays, shorten overall length of the car, and simulate the depressed panels between the ribs that were done to increase the capacity of the car.  There was a lot of work.

Stuart Thayer

In a message dated 11/23/2019 2:24:06 AM Eastern Standard Time, ryan.harris@... writes:

In this discussion I was referring to the N scale model only to point out that it had all the data one would expect to find on the other cars in the series. I wonder if this was based in fact or if it was the artist simply making an educated guess as to how the car appeared. I like the idea that it did receive the additional markings, especially since I'm interested in the car in later years. Having seen the N scale model and the HO scale model by MDC Roundhouse, Eastern Seaboard Models did a much better job on the shape and placement of the large "ORTNER" lettering than MDC Roundhouse did.

I don't think anyone has made a mass-produced model of the four bay configuration used by Southern and Northern Pacific. I don't have production totals, but my suspicion is the five bay version was more popular than the four bay version. There were certainly more users of the five bay version, which makes the case for tooling the five bay version from the point of view of a manufacturer trying to get the most bang for the buck. Athearn has gone on to upgrade the MDC Roundhouse five bay Ortner tooling they purchased and have released it in Southern previously (in the five bay version, unfortunately). Another release of Southern Ortners is scheduled for next year.

For those who want to model a four bay version, the good news is it uses nearly the same overall dimensions as the five bay version (55'-0" over strikers for the five bay vs. 54'-6" over strikers for the four bay and 45'-1" truck centers for the five bay vs. 43'-7" truck centers for the four bay). It's a simple kitbash for those HO and N scale modelers who want to model the car with four bays instead of five.

--
Ryan Harris
Fort Worth, TX


locked Re: Time to reduce the memory used for attachments

Arthur J Bryson
 

I find the attachments very useful and understand the need to delete. Keep doing what needs to bedone.


locked Re: Time to reduce the memory used for attachments

RamblingReck
 

Advance warning of what you are deleting would be helpful.  

Sent from the iPhone of the Ramblin’ Wreck from Georgia Tech

On Nov 23, 2019, at 12:13 PM, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:

All:

We will keep allowing attachments to posts but it is about time to delete attachments from earlier messages to reduce our storage at groups.io.

We think some of the past attachments have been of interest but we do not plan to archive them at groups.io.  I'll wait a few days in case anyone wants a copy of anything before doing any deleting. If possible, I'll only delete attachments from the oldest messages but keep the message body. If someone sees the message text in the future, whoever sent the attachment can re-send it later.

Ike
PS Do list members find the attachments useful? We will probably use the SRHA file server for (larger) attachments using links or a notice from posts here. That allows us to get around size limitations on groups.io

--
John Ryan


locked Time to reduce the memory used for attachments

George Eichelberger
 

All:

We will keep allowing attachments to posts but it is about time to delete attachments from earlier messages to reduce our storage at groups.io.

We think some of the past attachments have been of interest but we do not plan to archive them at groups.io.  I'll wait a few days in case anyone wants a copy of anything before doing any deleting. If possible, I'll only delete attachments from the oldest messages but keep the message body. If someone sees the message text in the future, whoever sent the attachment can re-send it later.

Ike
PS Do list members find the attachments useful? We will probably use the SRHA file server for (larger) attachments using links or a notice from posts here. That allows us to get around size limitations on groups.io


locked Re: Southern Railway Aggregate Hoppers

Ryan Harris
 

Thanks for confirming the information Jason provided, Ike. Looking back at the builder's photos of the Greenville 3600cf open hoppers in the 1984 Car & Locomotive Cyclopedia the class label "HS58" is absent from the carbody side. I learn something new every day!
--
Ryan Harris
Fort Worth, TX


locked Re: Southern Railway Aggregate Hoppers

George Eichelberger
 

Ryan:

Jason Greene is correct that Southern never had car classes. Any photo you see of a Southern freight car with a class designation was taken after the Sou/NS merger. At that time, the new NS Mechanical Dept (senior people were mostly ex N&W) simply expanded the N&W class system by adding an “S”. So BSnn indicates a Southern box car. N&W classes were not modified as a result of the merger. (I have never noticed if the same class number appeared on matching Bnn and BSnn cars. As the N&W built a very high proportion of its hopper cars and the Southern did not, I don’t expect there were many exact matches.)

Caution….many cars with complete Southern paint were given the new class stencils (I have been presented with photos as “proof” of Southern car classes. That may appear to have been from when the car was built but that is not correct.

Ike

PS After all of this…Southern DID have car classes for a very few years after the railroad was formed. There is an artifact of that on drawings into the 1900s. Usually in the upper right corner you will see a “Class” block. After classes were dropped, “Class” became something such as “box car”. (As they say..”never say never”.)


locked Re: Southern Railway Aggregate Hoppers

Ryan Harris
 

I see what you mean about the term "stenciling" Ike. I have run across drawings that lay out where each individual stencil is to be applied, which I believe is what you're referring to. Those drawings actually do fit what I'm looking for. However, I was thinking of a drawing where the dimensions and shape of the individual characters are laid out so they can be reproduced accurately. I used the term stencil because that is the term I saw used on this Southern Railway diagram:

https://www.nwhs.org/archivesdb/detail.php?ID=188131

This is the only Southern Railway stencil drawing of this type I found on the Norfolk and Western Historical Society archives, but honestly I was glad to have found anything Southern related there. Since Southern had such a unique letter and numeral style, I have to imagine more drawings than this single stencil drawing I found existed at one time or another. To my point, the letters and numerals on the Ortner cars in Warren Calloway's photos above are very close if not an exact match to the lettering used on Greenville cars in series 351862-352661 and Pullman Standard cars in series 88000-88499. I have to imagine the different builders used a common Southern Railway standard drawing to create stencils in their own shops, or at the very least the Southern Railway standard letters and numerals were specified on the individual drawings supplied to each builder.

I am very familiar with Mask Island decals. They are excellent quality and tend to be true to the prototype lettering. I was very pleased to learn he made decals for the boxcars rebuilt as flatcars to carry highway trailers. I had built a couple models of those cars and was almost resigned to painting them for Norfolk Southern when I was alerted to the newly released set. I have also purchased other Southern decals from Mask Island in the hopes of finding something I can use for the 360000-360999 series I mentioned earlier in the thread, but so far nothing is a good fit. If the SRHA has any drawings that might help Mask Island to produce the lightweight or "thin" letters and numerals found on the Ortner and Greenville open hopper series I mentioned and Warren Calloway's photos above depict, I would very much appreciate any help Mr. Mask might be given by the SRHA to produce those decals. There are unpainted models out there just waiting for these decals!

--
Ryan Harris
Fort Worth, TX


locked Re: Southern Railway Aggregate Hoppers

Ryan Harris
 

That's interesting, Jason. I'm certainly no expert on Southern railcars. I was using the terminology used in Andrew Dow's book, Norfolk and Western Coal Cars. In Appendix H there is a listing of "Coal Cars of the Southern Railway as may be found in service on Norfolk and Western coal routes." The Greenville cars I referred to in series 360000-360999 are listed as Southern class HS58 in this book.

I have some Southern equipment drawings of the Ortner quick dump hoppers (79425-79979, 79980 and 390000-390499). These are listed as Car Type K240 (K340 for the lone aluminum car) but no "class" is given on the diagram. In the Dow book the same Southern Ortner cars are listed as Southern classes HS24 through HS27 for the 79xxx cars and classes HS59 through HS61 for the 390xxx cars. I wonder if the concept of a Southern class of cars is a Norfolk Southern thing, since in the context of the book these cars are only considered as coal cars in the combined Norfolk Southern railroad.

--
Ryan Harris
Fort Worth, TX


locked Re: Southern 390399 "Ortner's 10,000th Rapid Discharge Car" Questions

Ryan Harris
 

That's interesting, Scott. I'd be very interested to know when it wore the blue paint. I used to live in Newnan, Georgia not far from Plant Yates and Plant Wansley, so ever since I saw the publicity photo years ago I've been fascinated by this car.
--
Ryan Harris
Fort Worth, TX


locked Re: Southern 390399 "Ortner's 10,000th Rapid Discharge Car" Questions

Ryan Harris
 

In this discussion I was referring to the N scale model only to point out that it had all the data one would expect to find on the other cars in the series. I wonder if this was based in fact or if it was the artist simply making an educated guess as to how the car appeared. I like the idea that it did receive the additional markings, especially since I'm interested in the car in later years. Having seen the N scale model and the HO scale model by MDC Roundhouse, Eastern Seaboard Models did a much better job on the shape and placement of the large "ORTNER" lettering than MDC Roundhouse did.

I don't think anyone has made a mass-produced model of the four bay configuration used by Southern and Northern Pacific. I don't have production totals, but my suspicion is the five bay version was more popular than the four bay version. There were certainly more users of the five bay version, which makes the case for tooling the five bay version from the point of view of a manufacturer trying to get the most bang for the buck. Athearn has gone on to upgrade the MDC Roundhouse five bay Ortner tooling they purchased and have released it in Southern previously (in the five bay version, unfortunately). Another release of Southern Ortners is scheduled for next year.

For those who want to model a four bay version, the good news is it uses nearly the same overall dimensions as the five bay version (55'-0" over strikers for the five bay vs. 54'-6" over strikers for the four bay and 45'-1" truck centers for the five bay vs. 43'-7" truck centers for the four bay). It's a simple kitbash for those HO and N scale modelers who want to model the car with four bays instead of five.

--
Ryan Harris
Fort Worth, TX


locked Re: Southern 390399 "Ortner's 10,000th Rapid Discharge Car" Questions

D. Scott Chatfield
 

I've got the impression that Ortner hopper only had that scheme for a short period of time.  It might have made a few trips in blue, but since it wasn't in interchange service they might not have felt the need to give it its full AAR-spec markings until it was repainted red.

Just my theory.

Scott Chatfield


locked Re: Southern Railway Aggregate Hoppers

Jason Greene
 

The Southern did not have classes for the freight cars. 
The drawings are however for specific number series of cars. 

Jason Greene 

On Nov 22, 2019, at 4:37 PM, Ryan Harris <ryan.harris@...> wrote:



These cars have the thin large "SOUTHERN" and numerals on the sides of the car similar to the three bay hoppers in the 360xxx series. This thin style of letters and numbers is difficult to pin down.

Did Southern keep stenciling diagrams of the various freight car classes, such as this one from the NWHS archives?

https://www.nwhs.org/archivesdb/detail.php?ID=93862

If lettering guides per class were not kept, was a standard diagram of alphabet and numerals used by Southern published for car builders to use?

Ryan Harris
Fort Worth, TX


locked Sou 550555

George Eichelberger
 

Here are two photos of Sou 550550. One is when the car was turned over to the Southern, the second photo is the only time I saw the car long after it was painted. The “in service” photo was taken in Mechanicsville, NY on 8-5-80 in a D&H train. 

Note the odd feature of the second photo….the car has a (much newer) “SOUTHERN” road name above the number. (SR and PRR did not follow the AAR standard..there is none on the as-built car.)

Ike



locked Re: Southern 390399 "Ortner's 10,000th Rapid Discharge Car" Questions

George Eichelberger
 

I cannot locate data on the Ortner car but recall it was the standard stencil arrangement with the 10,000 car stencil added. Other than that, it was the standard stencil scheme except on a blue car.

MDC did their car, including 390423 (think I have two if anyone wants one) with five bays. That was the standard Orton design but Southern asked for a four-bay version because they thought it would stand up to heavy use better.

We sent a package of drawings and P-S photos to the NCTM that they used to do an excellent restoration of the paint scheme. A lower res version of P-S drawing M-024-295 is attached. (By 1970, Southern had stopped tracing carbuilders’ drawings so their is no “SF” version.)

Ike


locked Re: Southern 390399 "Ortner's 10,000th Rapid Discharge Car" Questions

Robert Graham
 

That Ortner rapid discharge hopper was a one-of-a-kind commemorative paint livery car, similar to the Pullman-Standard 200,000th car SOU boxcar 550555 that ran around for quite a while in its blue/green/yellow special paint on the SOU. I have a shot of it somewhere. But, be aware that those SOU Ortner rapid discharge N scale model hoppers illustrated are incorrect for SOU. They are 5 bay cars and the SOU Ortner rapid discharge cars were all 4 bay. In HO scale, MDC (I think it was) made the same error.

As to the more mundane stenciling seen on these commemorative painted cars, the SOU 550555 did receive the more common stenciling common to the other SOU cars in this group of P-S exterior post boxcars. I shot it in service that way several times. I doubt there is a set of drawings that reflect that car, other than as-built. I would imagine the commemorative Ortner rapid discharge hopper car was handled in a similar fashion.


Bob Graham  


-----------------------------------------

From: "Ryan Harris"
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io
Cc:
Sent: Friday November 22 2019 3:52:16PM
Subject: [SouthernRailway] Southern 390399 "Ortner's 10,000th Rapid Discharge Car" Questions

I've only seen one photo of the 10,000th Rapid Discharge Car, Southern 390399:

http://southern.railfan.net/ties/1980/80-11/ortner.html

In this photo the car appears to be marked with only the large SOUTHERN name and numbers on the side, along with the tagline "Ortner's 10,000th Rapid Discharge Car". This photo is pretty low resolution, but it doesn't appear to show any of the typical data that appears on other cars in the 390xxx series, such as the consolidated stencil, dimensional data or discharge plunger instructions as seen on adjacent car 390423.

A company called Eastern Seaboard Models made a limited run of N scale models of this car many years ago. Their version of the car includes all the data that would typically be found on the other cars in the series. I asked Eastern Seaboard Models if they still had any of the research materials used to create the artwork or if they could put me in touch with the person who prepared the artwork for them. Here is a website showing a couple photos of their model:

https://www.trovestar.com/generic/zoom.php?id=138042

So my questions are:

Did this car receive all the data markings at some point after the publicity photo was taken in 1980?

How long did it remain in this paint scheme?

--
Ryan Harris
Fort Worth, TX


locked Re: Southern Railway Aggregate Hoppers

George Eichelberger
 

Ryan:

The Southern was rather particular about how its rolling stock was painted and lettered. It produced stencil drawings for different car types and updated drawings as lettering standards changed. It’s important to understand that “stencil” drawings were only intended to show where individual stencils were to be placed on the equipment, each and every stencil; monogram, dim data, road names and numbers, etc. had their own drawing to be used to cut the stencils.

Although the different sizes of the post 1960 “block” lettering were proportionally different (i.e. same design, just different sizes) the earlier “Roman” style letters had individual drawings for different sizes. Things such as letter thickness, width, style of serifs and spacing could vary. Early (hand painted) passenger car lettering was quite ornate. Later “block” style passenger lettering, sometime called “streamlined” lettering was much simpler.

(I have mentioned before, the Southern did not have a lettering standard when the 1941 “Tennessean” and “Southerner” were being built at P-S. Southern simply used the same 7 inch lettering EMD had developed for the E-6s.)

Quite a few lettering drawings, the round monogram (never called a “logo”!) and placement drawings were published in the SRHA 40’ and 50’ (1938-1982) box car books. The 50’ book is still available from SRHA (maybe 12 left?) The 40’ book is long out of print but a new version that includes all of the various 40’ rebuilds is about 60% done. (When time permits, we will publish a list of all the drawings we have scanned. When we get the new networked drive set up, we will make digital versions available at nominal pricew.)

Ike

PS About the best Southern decals produced and sold today are from Hubert Mask at Mask Island. SRHA has provided Hubert with detailed drawings of many of his decal sets.


locked Southern 390399 "Ortner's 10,000th Rapid Discharge Car" Questions

Ryan Harris
 

I've only seen one photo of the 10,000th Rapid Discharge Car, Southern 390399:

http://southern.railfan.net/ties/1980/80-11/ortner.html

In this photo the car appears to be marked with only the large SOUTHERN name and numbers on the side, along with the tagline "Ortner's 10,000th Rapid Discharge Car". This photo is pretty low resolution, but it doesn't appear to show any of the typical data that appears on other cars in the 390xxx series, such as the consolidated stencil, dimensional data or discharge plunger instructions as seen on adjacent car 390423.

A company called Eastern Seaboard Models made a limited run of N scale models of this car many years ago. Their version of the car includes all the data that would typically be found on the other cars in the series. I asked Eastern Seaboard Models if they still had any of the research materials used to create the artwork or if they could put me in touch with the person who prepared the artwork for them. Here is a website showing a couple photos of their model:

https://www.trovestar.com/generic/zoom.php?id=138042

So my questions are:

Did this car receive all the data markings at some point after the publicity photo was taken in 1980?

How long did it remain in this paint scheme?

--
Ryan Harris
Fort Worth, TX


locked Re: Southern Railway Aggregate Hoppers

Ryan Harris
 

These cars have the thin large "SOUTHERN" and numerals on the sides of the car similar to the three bay hoppers in the 360xxx series. This thin style of letters and numbers is difficult to pin down.

Did Southern keep stenciling diagrams of the various freight car classes, such as this one from the NWHS archives?

https://www.nwhs.org/archivesdb/detail.php?ID=93862

If lettering guides per class were not kept, was a standard diagram of alphabet and numerals used by Southern published for car builders to use?

Ryan Harris
Fort Worth, TX

1341 - 1360 of 1920