Date   
Re: From the SRHA Archives - Gondola Shortage in 1948

A&Y Dave in MD
 

Gino,

That is correct. There is a great discussion of coal car design issues in the book by Robert Karig "Coal Cars: The first three hundred years."  White's "The American Railroad Freight Car" is another good source for early designs.  The Karig book is worth the price alone for his discussion and many photos of freight car trucks.Neither book is specific to the Southern designs and nomenclature though, but they are both informative, interesting reads.

Dave



Monday, June 1, 2020, 4:58:14 AM, you wrote:


Hi,

I'm no chemist, but could it be that the sulfur in the coal reacted to form sulfuric acid? Which in it's turn corrodes the metal quickly if it is an inferior quality?

Gino Damen
The Netherlands


1 jun. 2020 04:06:43 George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...>:

Sam:

To further complicate the nomenclature, there were also “hopper bottom” (HB) gondolas. They were as you’d expect, gondolas with hopper bottoms. A benefit of the “hopper” design was that although there were doors on both sides of the center sill, the latching mechanism controlled both doors so they could both be opened from one side.

I would think the early Carbuilders’ Cycs would provide a formal definition of DB and DDB but it does not. The Southern applied the term very specifically to different car series but without some research the meanings are not clear. A quick look at drawings suggests “DDB” cars had a “winding shaft” that went through over the center sill with a chain arrangement holding the doors closed. The ICC records show DDB cars being rebuilt into DB versions. That may (!) coincide with the development or door latches that eliminated the need for the chain design? (Any  other ideas?)

PPS Wood or composite gondolas or hoppers cars were preferred by the Southern well into the 1920s. Apparently the steel of the period rusted out very quickly when used to carry coal. Very few steel gondolas lasted more than 20 years….

Ike


On May 31, 2020, at 7:52 PM, Sam Smith via groups.io <sam_smith2004@...> wrote:

Would one of y'all gentlemen please explain to me the difference between the "drop bottom" vs. "double drop bottom" as described below.

Thank you,
Samuel Smith



On Sun, May 31, 2020 at 7:26 PM, George Eichelberger
<
geichelberger@...> wrote:
Dave:

There is not a specific file or folder to refer to and read but these kinds of letters appear in the Southern Railway Presidents’ files quite often. They provide insights into both the technology and business of railroading across many years.

BTW, drop bottom (DB) and double drop botton (DDB) gondolas went through a name change in SR terminology. Before the "Hopper car” designs that we see today (open top, slope sheets and hopper doors), “coal cars” (sounds like Lionel?) were DB and DDB gons. The jpg below is a portion of an 1899 freight equipment capacity chart prepared for Samuel Spencer. Note “coal cars”…. (First column is 1899 quantities, third are 1898, second is the difference between the two years. Other columns are quantities and tonnage by different size cars.

The entire chart will be published as a “From the Archives” item in a future TIES magazine. The chart, and a complete inventory of Southern rolling stock acquired when the Southern was created from the Richmond Terminal Company bankruptcy provides a starting point for all SR rolling stock and locomotives.

Ike

<PastedGraphic-1.png>

On May 31, 2020, at 4:03 PM, A&Y Dave in MD <
dbott@...> wrote:

Re: [SouthernRailway] From the SRHA Archives - Gondola Shortage in 1948
The AAR was almost funny.  The Southern had one of the larger gondola fleets in the US, especially relative to its size (obviously nothing like the Pennsy).   I guess Faricy figured if a road had so many, it wouldn't mind adding a few more.

I'm curious since I've been reading about ATSF gondolas designed for both gravel and other loads (with drop doors) and for mill materials also (with drop ends).  Didn't the AAR think to consider the types of gons used by Southern customers vs others?  That's hinted at in the letter about 10% having to be returned empty (other than low side gons).  I wonder  also if that rule had anything to do with the fact that the Southern obtained a lot of low side gons?  A lot of people who I have talked to think it was due to the surplus of cheap manual labor in the southeast  and so low side fixed gons for gravel, sand, etc, would be cheaper and easier to unload than high side gons.  It's a plausible theory, but here's a hint that there may be more to the story.

Interesting bit of correspondence.

Dave

Sunday, May 31, 2020, 9:56:33 AM, you wrote:


For a medium size railroad, the Southern maintained sufficient freight cars to receive, rather than pay, per diem for interchanged freight cars. When cars were MOL free running, there are multiple letters in the Southern Presidents’ files complaining to the AAR and other railroads that Southern’s cars were not being returned in a timely manner.

The two attached letters discuss a gondola shortage in 1948, a request that the Southern buy gons and the response from SR President EE Norris.
Ike

<9-27-48 AAR ltr to EEN about gons.jpeg>

<10-1-48 gon response letter.jpeg>



--
David Bott

Sent from David Bott's desktop PC
<PastedGraphic-1.png>


--
David Bott

Sent from David Bott's desktop PC

Re: From the SRHA Archives - Gondola Shortage in 1948

George Eichelberger
 

Gino:

I believe that is correct. Eventually, the composition of the steel improved to help somewhat. I cannot quote the car series offhand but the Southern(s) first group of all steel gondolas was followed by more composite designs using wood rather than steel plate.

A few years ago, Richard Hendrickson was working on an article about USRA gondolas and asked if/how they were rebuilt at the end of the Gov’t financing. My, somewhat “flip”, first answer was “like everything else, they were probably rebuilt and renumbered” was completely wrong. After nearly 20 years of service, the cars were in poor condition, the USRA finance terms were expiring and the Great Depression had drastically reduced the need for any type of freight cars.

Ike

PS The USRA gondola specification in the SRHA archives has been scanned. I will post a copy if folks are interested. (Rather than a Southern Railway produced spec., it is simply the USRA document with a new cover sheet.)


On Jun 1, 2020, at 4:58 AM, Gino Damen <g.damen@...> wrote:

Hi,

I'm no chemist, but could it be that the sulfur in the coal reacted to form sulfuric acid? Which in it's turn corrodes the metal quickly if it is an inferior quality?

Gino Damen
The Netherlands


1 jun. 2020 04:06:43 George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...>:

Sam:

To further complicate the nomenclature, there were also “hopper bottom” (HB) gondolas. They were as you’d expect, gondolas with hopper bottoms. A benefit of the “hopper” design was that although there were doors on both sides of the center sill, the latching mechanism controlled both doors so they could both be opened from one side.

I would think the early Carbuilders’ Cycs would provide a formal definition of DB and DDB but it does not. The Southern applied the term very specifically to different car series but without some research the meanings are not clear. A quick look at drawings suggests “DDB” cars had a “winding shaft” that went through over the center sill with a chain arrangement holding the doors closed. The ICC records show DDB cars being rebuilt into DB versions. That may (!) coincide with the development or door latches that eliminated the need for the chain design? (Any  other ideas?)

PPS Wood or composite gondolas or hoppers cars were preferred by the Southern well into the 1920s. Apparently the steel of the period rusted out very quickly when used to carry coal. Very few steel gondolas lasted more than 20 years….

Ike


On May 31, 2020, at 7:52 PM, Sam Smith via groups.io <sam_smith2004@...> wrote:

Would one of y'all gentlemen please explain to me the difference between the "drop bottom" vs. "double drop bottom" as described below.

Thank you,
Samuel Smith


On Sun, May 31, 2020 at 7:26 PM, George Eichelberger
Dave:

There is not a specific file or folder to refer to and read but these kinds of letters appear in the Southern Railway Presidents’ files quite often. They provide insights into both the technology and business of railroading across many years.

BTW, drop bottom (DB) and double drop botton (DDB) gondolas went through a name change in SR terminology. Before the "Hopper car” designs that we see today (open top, slope sheets and hopper doors), “coal cars” (sounds like Lionel?) were DB and DDB gons. The jpg below is a portion of an 1899 freight equipment capacity chart prepared for Samuel Spencer. Note “coal cars”…. (First column is 1899 quantities, third are 1898, second is the difference between the two years. Other columns are quantities and tonnage by different size cars.

The entire chart will be published as a “From the Archives” item in a future TIES magazine. The chart, and a complete inventory of Southern rolling stock acquired when the Southern was created from the Richmond Terminal Company bankruptcy provides a starting point for all SR rolling stock and locomotives.

Ike

<PastedGraphic-1.png>

On May 31, 2020, at 4:03 PM, A&Y Dave in MD <dbott@...> wrote:

The AAR was almost funny.  The Southern had one of the larger gondola fleets in the US, especially relative to its size (obviously nothing like the Pennsy).   I guess Faricy figured if a road had so many, it wouldn't mind adding a few more.

I'm curious since I've been reading about ATSF gondolas designed for both gravel and other loads (with drop doors) and for mill materials also (with drop ends).  Didn't the AAR think to consider the types of gons used by Southern customers vs others?  That's hinted at in the letter about 10% having to be returned empty (other than low side gons).  I wonder  also if that rule had anything to do with the fact that the Southern obtained a lot of low side gons?  A lot of people who I have talked to think it was due to the surplus of cheap manual labor in the southeast  and so low side fixed gons for gravel, sand, etc, would be cheaper and easier to unload than high side gons.  It's a plausible theory, but here's a hint that there may be more to the story.

Interesting bit of correspondence.

Dave

Sunday, May 31, 2020, 9:56:33 AM, you wrote:


For a medium size railroad, the Southern maintained sufficient freight cars to receive, rather than pay, per diem for interchanged freight cars. When cars were MOL free running, there are multiple letters in the Southern Presidents’ files complaining to the AAR and other railroads that Southern’s cars were not being returned in a timely manner.

The two attached letters discuss a gondola shortage in 1948, a request that the Southern buy gons and the response from SR President EE Norris.
Ike

<9-27-48 AAR ltr to EEN about gons.jpeg>

<10-1-48 gon response letter.jpeg>



--
David Bott

Sent from David Bott's desktop PC

<PastedGraphic-1.png>


Re: From the SRHA Archives - Gondola Shortage in 1948

Gino Damen
 

Hi,

I'm no chemist, but could it be that the sulfur in the coal reacted to form sulfuric acid? Which in it's turn corrodes the metal quickly if it is an inferior quality?

Gino Damen
The Netherlands


1 jun. 2020 04:06:43 George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...>:

Sam:

To further complicate the nomenclature, there were also “hopper bottom” (HB) gondolas. They were as you’d expect, gondolas with hopper bottoms. A benefit of the “hopper” design was that although there were doors on both sides of the center sill, the latching mechanism controlled both doors so they could both be opened from one side.

I would think the early Carbuilders’ Cycs would provide a formal definition of DB and DDB but it does not. The Southern applied the term very specifically to different car series but without some research the meanings are not clear. A quick look at drawings suggests “DDB” cars had a “winding shaft” that went through over the center sill with a chain arrangement holding the doors closed. The ICC records show DDB cars being rebuilt into DB versions. That may (!) coincide with the development or door latches that eliminated the need for the chain design? (Any  other ideas?)

PPS Wood or composite gondolas or hoppers cars were preferred by the Southern well into the 1920s. Apparently the steel of the period rusted out very quickly when used to carry coal. Very few steel gondolas lasted more than 20 years….

Ike


On May 31, 2020, at 7:52 PM, Sam Smith via groups.io <sam_smith2004@...> wrote:

Would one of y'all gentlemen please explain to me the difference between the "drop bottom" vs. "double drop bottom" as described below.

Thank you,
Samuel Smith


On Sun, May 31, 2020 at 7:26 PM, George Eichelberger
Dave:

There is not a specific file or folder to refer to and read but these kinds of letters appear in the Southern Railway Presidents’ files quite often. They provide insights into both the technology and business of railroading across many years.

BTW, drop bottom (DB) and double drop botton (DDB) gondolas went through a name change in SR terminology. Before the "Hopper car” designs that we see today (open top, slope sheets and hopper doors), “coal cars” (sounds like Lionel?) were DB and DDB gons. The jpg below is a portion of an 1899 freight equipment capacity chart prepared for Samuel Spencer. Note “coal cars”…. (First column is 1899 quantities, third are 1898, second is the difference between the two years. Other columns are quantities and tonnage by different size cars.

The entire chart will be published as a “From the Archives” item in a future TIES magazine. The chart, and a complete inventory of Southern rolling stock acquired when the Southern was created from the Richmond Terminal Company bankruptcy provides a starting point for all SR rolling stock and locomotives.

Ike

<PastedGraphic-1.png>

On May 31, 2020, at 4:03 PM, A&Y Dave in MD <dbott@...> wrote:

The AAR was almost funny.  The Southern had one of the larger gondola fleets in the US, especially relative to its size (obviously nothing like the Pennsy).   I guess Faricy figured if a road had so many, it wouldn't mind adding a few more.

I'm curious since I've been reading about ATSF gondolas designed for both gravel and other loads (with drop doors) and for mill materials also (with drop ends).  Didn't the AAR think to consider the types of gons used by Southern customers vs others?  That's hinted at in the letter about 10% having to be returned empty (other than low side gons).  I wonder  also if that rule had anything to do with the fact that the Southern obtained a lot of low side gons?  A lot of people who I have talked to think it was due to the surplus of cheap manual labor in the southeast  and so low side fixed gons for gravel, sand, etc, would be cheaper and easier to unload than high side gons.  It's a plausible theory, but here's a hint that there may be more to the story.

Interesting bit of correspondence.

Dave

Sunday, May 31, 2020, 9:56:33 AM, you wrote:


For a medium size railroad, the Southern maintained sufficient freight cars to receive, rather than pay, per diem for interchanged freight cars. When cars were MOL free running, there are multiple letters in the Southern Presidents’ files complaining to the AAR and other railroads that Southern’s cars were not being returned in a timely manner.

The two attached letters discuss a gondola shortage in 1948, a request that the Southern buy gons and the response from SR President EE Norris.
Ike

<9-27-48 AAR ltr to EEN about gons.jpeg>

<10-1-48 gon response letter.jpeg>



--
David Bott

Sent from David Bott's desktop PC

<PastedGraphic-1.png>

Re: From the SRHA Archives - Gondola Shortage in 1948

George Eichelberger
 

Sam:

To further complicate the nomenclature, there were also “hopper bottom” (HB) gondolas. They were as you’d expect, gondolas with hopper bottoms. A benefit of the “hopper” design was that although there were doors on both sides of the center sill, the latching mechanism controlled both doors so they could both be opened from one side.

I would think the early Carbuilders’ Cycs would provide a formal definition of DB and DDB but it does not. The Southern applied the term very specifically to different car series but without some research the meanings are not clear. A quick look at drawings suggests “DDB” cars had a “winding shaft” that went through over the center sill with a chain arrangement holding the doors closed. The ICC records show DDB cars being rebuilt into DB versions. That may (!) coincide with the development or door latches that eliminated the need for the chain design? (Any  other ideas?)

PPS Wood or composite gondolas or hoppers cars were preferred by the Southern well into the 1920s. Apparently the steel of the period rusted out very quickly when used to carry coal. Very few steel gondolas lasted more than 20 years….

Ike


On May 31, 2020, at 7:52 PM, Sam Smith via groups.io <sam_smith2004@...> wrote:

Would one of y'all gentlemen please explain to me the difference between the "drop bottom" vs. "double drop bottom" as described below.

Thank you,
Samuel Smith


On Sun, May 31, 2020 at 7:26 PM, George Eichelberger
Dave:

There is not a specific file or folder to refer to and read but these kinds of letters appear in the Southern Railway Presidents’ files quite often. They provide insights into both the technology and business of railroading across many years.

BTW, drop bottom (DB) and double drop botton (DDB) gondolas went through a name change in SR terminology. Before the "Hopper car” designs that we see today (open top, slope sheets and hopper doors), “coal cars” (sounds like Lionel?) were DB and DDB gons. The jpg below is a portion of an 1899 freight equipment capacity chart prepared for Samuel Spencer. Note “coal cars”…. (First column is 1899 quantities, third are 1898, second is the difference between the two years. Other columns are quantities and tonnage by different size cars.

The entire chart will be published as a “From the Archives” item in a future TIES magazine. The chart, and a complete inventory of Southern rolling stock acquired when the Southern was created from the Richmond Terminal Company bankruptcy provides a starting point for all SR rolling stock and locomotives.

Ike

<PastedGraphic-1.png>

On May 31, 2020, at 4:03 PM, A&Y Dave in MD <dbott@...> wrote:

The AAR was almost funny.  The Southern had one of the larger gondola fleets in the US, especially relative to its size (obviously nothing like the Pennsy).   I guess Faricy figured if a road had so many, it wouldn't mind adding a few more.

I'm curious since I've been reading about ATSF gondolas designed for both gravel and other loads (with drop doors) and for mill materials also (with drop ends).  Didn't the AAR think to consider the types of gons used by Southern customers vs others?  That's hinted at in the letter about 10% having to be returned empty (other than low side gons).  I wonder  also if that rule had anything to do with the fact that the Southern obtained a lot of low side gons?  A lot of people who I have talked to think it was due to the surplus of cheap manual labor in the southeast  and so low side fixed gons for gravel, sand, etc, would be cheaper and easier to unload than high side gons.  It's a plausible theory, but here's a hint that there may be more to the story.

Interesting bit of correspondence.

Dave

Sunday, May 31, 2020, 9:56:33 AM, you wrote:


For a medium size railroad, the Southern maintained sufficient freight cars to receive, rather than pay, per diem for interchanged freight cars. When cars were MOL free running, there are multiple letters in the Southern Presidents’ files complaining to the AAR and other railroads that Southern’s cars were not being returned in a timely manner.

The two attached letters discuss a gondola shortage in 1948, a request that the Southern buy gons and the response from SR President EE Norris.
Ike

<9-27-48 AAR ltr to EEN about gons.jpeg>

<10-1-48 gon response letter.jpeg>



--
David Bott

Sent from David Bott's desktop PC

<PastedGraphic-1.png>

Re: From the SRHA Archives - Gondola Shortage in 1948

Sam Smith
 

Would one of y'all gentlemen please explain to me the difference between the "drop bottom" vs. "double drop bottom" as described below.

Thank you,
Samuel Smith


On Sun, May 31, 2020 at 7:26 PM, George Eichelberger
<geichelberger@...> wrote:
Dave:

There is not a specific file or folder to refer to and read but these kinds of letters appear in the Southern Railway Presidents’ files quite often. They provide insights into both the technology and business of railroading across many years.

BTW, drop bottom (DB) and double drop botton (DDB) gondolas went through a name change in SR terminology. Before the "Hopper car” designs that we see today (open top, slope sheets and hopper doors), “coal cars” (sounds like Lionel?) were DB and DDB gons. The jpg below is a portion of an 1899 freight equipment capacity chart prepared for Samuel Spencer. Note “coal cars”…. (First column is 1899 quantities, third are 1898, second is the difference between the two years. Other columns are quantities and tonnage by different size cars.

The entire chart will be published as a “From the Archives” item in a future TIES magazine. The chart, and a complete inventory of Southern rolling stock acquired when the Southern was created from the Richmond Terminal Company bankruptcy provides a starting point for all SR rolling stock and locomotives.

Ike


On May 31, 2020, at 4:03 PM, A&Y Dave in MD <dbott@...> wrote:

The AAR was almost funny.  The Southern had one of the larger gondola fleets in the US, especially relative to its size (obviously nothing like the Pennsy).   I guess Faricy figured if a road had so many, it wouldn't mind adding a few more.

I'm curious since I've been reading about ATSF gondolas designed for both gravel and other loads (with drop doors) and for mill materials also (with drop ends).  Didn't the AAR think to consider the types of gons used by Southern customers vs others?  That's hinted at in the letter about 10% having to be returned empty (other than low side gons).  I wonder  also if that rule had anything to do with the fact that the Southern obtained a lot of low side gons?  A lot of people who I have talked to think it was due to the surplus of cheap manual labor in the southeast  and so low side fixed gons for gravel, sand, etc, would be cheaper and easier to unload than high side gons.  It's a plausible theory, but here's a hint that there may be more to the story.

Interesting bit of correspondence.

Dave

Sunday, May 31, 2020, 9:56:33 AM, you wrote:


For a medium size railroad, the Southern maintained sufficient freight cars to receive, rather than pay, per diem for interchanged freight cars. When cars were MOL free running, there are multiple letters in the Southern Presidents’ files complaining to the AAR and other railroads that Southern’s cars were not being returned in a timely manner.

The two attached letters discuss a gondola shortage in 1948, a request that the Southern buy gons and the response from SR President EE Norris.
Ike

<9-27-48 AAR ltr to EEN about gons.jpeg>

<10-1-48 gon response letter.jpeg>



--
David Bott

Sent from David Bott's desktop PC

Re: From the SRHA Archives - Gondola Shortage in 1948

George Eichelberger
 

Dave:

There is not a specific file or folder to refer to and read but these kinds of letters appear in the Southern Railway Presidents’ files quite often. They provide insights into both the technology and business of railroading across many years.

BTW, drop bottom (DB) and double drop botton (DDB) gondolas went through a name change in SR terminology. Before the "Hopper car” designs that we see today (open top, slope sheets and hopper doors), “coal cars” (sounds like Lionel?) were DB and DDB gons. The jpg below is a portion of an 1899 freight equipment capacity chart prepared for Samuel Spencer. Note “coal cars”…. (First column is 1899 quantities, third are 1898, second is the difference between the two years. Other columns are quantities and tonnage by different size cars.

The entire chart will be published as a “From the Archives” item in a future TIES magazine. The chart, and a complete inventory of Southern rolling stock acquired when the Southern was created from the Richmond Terminal Company bankruptcy provides a starting point for all SR rolling stock and locomotives.

Ike


On May 31, 2020, at 4:03 PM, A&Y Dave in MD <dbott@...> wrote:

The AAR was almost funny.  The Southern had one of the larger gondola fleets in the US, especially relative to its size (obviously nothing like the Pennsy).   I guess Faricy figured if a road had so many, it wouldn't mind adding a few more.

I'm curious since I've been reading about ATSF gondolas designed for both gravel and other loads (with drop doors) and for mill materials also (with drop ends).  Didn't the AAR think to consider the types of gons used by Southern customers vs others?  That's hinted at in the letter about 10% having to be returned empty (other than low side gons).  I wonder  also if that rule had anything to do with the fact that the Southern obtained a lot of low side gons?  A lot of people who I have talked to think it was due to the surplus of cheap manual labor in the southeast  and so low side fixed gons for gravel, sand, etc, would be cheaper and easier to unload than high side gons.  It's a plausible theory, but here's a hint that there may be more to the story.

Interesting bit of correspondence.

Dave

Sunday, May 31, 2020, 9:56:33 AM, you wrote:


For a medium size railroad, the Southern maintained sufficient freight cars to receive, rather than pay, per diem for interchanged freight cars. When cars were MOL free running, there are multiple letters in the Southern Presidents’ files complaining to the AAR and other railroads that Southern’s cars were not being returned in a timely manner.

The two attached letters discuss a gondola shortage in 1948, a request that the Southern buy gons and the response from SR President EE Norris.
Ike

<9-27-48 AAR ltr to EEN about gons.jpeg>

<10-1-48 gon response letter.jpeg>



--
David Bott

Sent from David Bott's desktop PC

Re: From the SRHA Archives - Gondola Shortage in 1948

A&Y Dave in MD
 

The AAR was almost funny.  The Southern had one of the larger gondola fleets in the US, especially relative to its size (obviously nothing like the Pennsy).   I guess Faricy figured if a road had so many, it wouldn't mind adding a few more.

I'm curious since I've been reading about ATSF gondolas designed for both gravel and other loads (with drop doors) and for mill materials also (with drop ends).  Didn't the AAR think to consider the types of gons used by Southern customers vs others?  That's hinted at in the letter about 10% having to be returned empty (other than low side gons).  I wonder  also if that rule had anything to do with the fact that the Southern obtained a lot of low side gons?  A lot of people who I have talked to think it was due to the surplus of cheap manual labor in the southeast  and so low side fixed gons for gravel, sand, etc, would be cheaper and easier to unload than high side gons.  It's a plausible theory, but here's a hint that there may be more to the story.

Interesting bit of correspondence.

Dave

Sunday, May 31, 2020, 9:56:33 AM, you wrote:


For a medium size railroad, the Southern maintained sufficient freight cars to receive, rather than pay, per diem for interchanged freight cars. When cars were MOL free running, there are multiple letters in the Southern Presidents’ files complaining to the AAR and other railroads that Southern’s cars were not being returned in a timely manner.

The two attached letters discuss a gondola shortage in 1948, a request that the Southern buy gons and the response from SR President EE Norris.
Ike







--
David Bott

Sent from David Bott's desktop PC

From the SRHA Archives - Gondola Shortage in 1948

George Eichelberger
 

For a medium size railroad, the Southern maintained sufficient freight cars to receive, rather than pay, per diem for interchanged freight cars. When cars were MOL free running, there are multiple letters in the Southern Presidents’ files complaining to the AAR and other railroads that Southern’s cars were not being returned in a timely manner.

The two attached letters discuss a gondola shortage in 1948, a request that the Southern buy gons and the response from SR President EE Norris.
Ike


Gathering Material for "TIES" Article on "Florida Sunbeam"

George Eichelberger
 

We are gathering material to use in a future TIES article on the “Florida Sunbeam”. If anyone has any information or material to contribute, please contact us at editor@... or archives@....

The “Sunbeam” was a seasonal train with Pullmans and coaches on the NYC from Chicago, Cleveland, Detroit and Chicago connecting at Cincinnati, then on the CNO&TP, Southern and the GS&F to Hampton, FL to the Seaboard.

Any information about operations at Hampton and if/which Southern or NYC cars operated on the Seaboard. Several good photos are available but “more is better” if they can be located, particularly anything of the train operating on the SAL. Consist information at Detroit, Cincy or Atlanta would be particularly helpful.

Ike

Re: Southern reweigh and repack shop codes

A&Y Dave in MD
 

If you can find the result, that would be great. History is always in danger of being lost, just when it seems safe something changes.

Sent from Dave Bott' iPhone

On May 30, 2020, at 12:36 AM, Jason Greene <jason.p.greene@...> wrote:

This was throughly hashed out years ago on the old yahoo group. You may have them saved in your saved emails.  I’m not sure if you can still go back and find the old yahoo group and search the messages. I may have a chance to look it up tomorrow. 


Jason Greene 

On May 29, 2020, at 7:27 PM, A&Y Dave in MD <dbott@...> wrote:

 On the steam freight car list (STMFC) there is an excel sheet which has the reweigh and repack location shop codes compiled for all US railroads mostly by Richard Hendrickson and primarily based upon an analysis of 1950's era car photographs (mostly). Cars had to be reweighed, and restencilled if certain amounts of change occurred.  In early days, this could be every year or so, and the shops reflected in one era may not work for other time periods.

Is there any chance that the SRHA archives has data on the shop locations and codes that the Southern would use for reweigh and repack stencils in any era, but particularly in 1934? I'd be very happy to see that list.  I suspect the shop codes changed somewhat over time.

Has such a list already been shared/published and I just missed it?   If not, where would such information (accurate by time period) be found?

If no such list or data source exists, here's what the latest STMFC data sheet has for Southern.  Anybody have suggestions (please indicate WHEN the info is appropriate if you can):


SYMBOL LOCATION STATE NOTES SOURCE
ALX Alexandria VA
Hendrickson
AUG Augusta GA
Hendrickson
CHAT Chattanooga TN
Hendrickson
CIN Cincinnatti OH
Hendrickson
FN Finley Yard AL Birmingham Hendrickson
HE Hayne Shops SC Spartanburg Hendrickson
IN Inman Yard GA Atlanta; also INM Hendrickson
INM Inman Yard GA Atlanta; also IN Hendrickson
JS Jacksonville FL
Hendrickson
K Knoxville TN
Hendrickson
MDN Meridian MS
Hendrickson
MN Macon GA
Hendrickson
N Norris Yard SC
Hendrickson
SR Spencer NC
Hendrickson

Richard Hendrickson was a fine historian, but he was not directly interested in the Southern, so I suspect there would be some improvements to be made by this group.

Thanks,

Dave Bott

--

Sent from David Bott's desktop pc

Re: Southern reweigh and repack shop codes

Jason Greene
 

This was throughly hashed out years ago on the old yahoo group. You may have them saved in your saved emails.  I’m not sure if you can still go back and find the old yahoo group and search the messages. I may have a chance to look it up tomorrow. 


Jason Greene 

On May 29, 2020, at 7:27 PM, A&Y Dave in MD <dbott@...> wrote:

 On the steam freight car list (STMFC) there is an excel sheet which has the reweigh and repack location shop codes compiled for all US railroads mostly by Richard Hendrickson and primarily based upon an analysis of 1950's era car photographs (mostly). Cars had to be reweighed, and restencilled if certain amounts of change occurred.  In early days, this could be every year or so, and the shops reflected in one era may not work for other time periods.

Is there any chance that the SRHA archives has data on the shop locations and codes that the Southern would use for reweigh and repack stencils in any era, but particularly in 1934? I'd be very happy to see that list.  I suspect the shop codes changed somewhat over time.

Has such a list already been shared/published and I just missed it?   If not, where would such information (accurate by time period) be found?

If no such list or data source exists, here's what the latest STMFC data sheet has for Southern.  Anybody have suggestions (please indicate WHEN the info is appropriate if you can):


SYMBOL LOCATION STATE NOTES SOURCE
ALX Alexandria VA
Hendrickson
AUG Augusta GA
Hendrickson
CHAT Chattanooga TN
Hendrickson
CIN Cincinnatti OH
Hendrickson
FN Finley Yard AL Birmingham Hendrickson
HE Hayne Shops SC Spartanburg Hendrickson
IN Inman Yard GA Atlanta; also INM Hendrickson
INM Inman Yard GA Atlanta; also IN Hendrickson
JS Jacksonville FL
Hendrickson
K Knoxville TN
Hendrickson
MDN Meridian MS
Hendrickson
MN Macon GA
Hendrickson
N Norris Yard SC
Hendrickson
SR Spencer NC
Hendrickson

Richard Hendrickson was a fine historian, but he was not directly interested in the Southern, so I suspect there would be some improvements to be made by this group.

Thanks,

Dave Bott

--

Sent from David Bott's desktop pc

Southern reweigh and repack shop codes

A&Y Dave in MD
 

On the steam freight car list (STMFC) there is an excel sheet which has the reweigh and repack location shop codes compiled for all US railroads mostly by Richard Hendrickson and primarily based upon an analysis of 1950's era car photographs (mostly). Cars had to be reweighed, and restencilled if certain amounts of change occurred.  In early days, this could be every year or so, and the shops reflected in one era may not work for other time periods.

Is there any chance that the SRHA archives has data on the shop locations and codes that the Southern would use for reweigh and repack stencils in any era, but particularly in 1934? I'd be very happy to see that list.  I suspect the shop codes changed somewhat over time.

Has such a list already been shared/published and I just missed it?   If not, where would such information (accurate by time period) be found?

If no such list or data source exists, here's what the latest STMFC data sheet has for Southern.  Anybody have suggestions (please indicate WHEN the info is appropriate if you can):


SYMBOL LOCATION STATE NOTES SOURCE
ALX Alexandria VA
Hendrickson
AUG Augusta GA
Hendrickson
CHAT Chattanooga TN
Hendrickson
CIN Cincinnatti OH
Hendrickson
FN Finley Yard AL Birmingham Hendrickson
HE Hayne Shops SC Spartanburg Hendrickson
IN Inman Yard GA Atlanta; also INM Hendrickson
INM Inman Yard GA Atlanta; also IN Hendrickson
JS Jacksonville FL
Hendrickson
K Knoxville TN
Hendrickson
MDN Meridian MS
Hendrickson
MN Macon GA
Hendrickson
N Norris Yard SC
Hendrickson
SR Spencer NC
Hendrickson

Richard Hendrickson was a fine historian, but he was not directly interested in the Southern, so I suspect there would be some improvements to be made by this group.

Thanks,

Dave Bott

--

Sent from David Bott's desktop pc

moderated Re: Southern Railway Freight Car Mix in mid 1950s

A&Y Dave in MD
 

Aidrian,

My conductor logs were from the Winston-Salem division in 1934 and centered on Greensbor0. I didn't offer this because Allen was looking for 1955 data.

The logs represent a large number (200+) unique trains, with 160 representing trains 72/73 with a Mikado pulling 30-60 cars of through traffic from Greensboro (Pomona Yard) to Winston-Salem (for the N&W) and back, and the other 40 representing 13/14 a mixed local from Greensboro to North Wilkesboro.

The % in the entire database was about 50% Southern cars.  

Here is the simplest table I created for reporting marks numbering 50+ in the data set covering Jan-Sep 1934:



Note these cars for 10 reporting marks, total 5,929  and the whole dataset covers 7,147 cars with 445 reporting unique marks.  So there are 430 reporting marks spread among 1,200 cars not counted above!   My thoughts are pretty simple:  build more Southern box cars than I think necessary, follow that up with Southern and N&W hoppers.  Add Southern gons (and N&W gons probably labeled 'coal cars' here. If you need tank cars, choose UTLX  or TCX.  Throw in a couple ACL, SAL, C&O, B&O and PRR box cars.  And then fill out a train with a car or two of whatever road you happen to have.

But I still agree that the cautions are numerous.  This is a specific time and a specific place.  Your mileage will most definitely vary.  Photos will help (and believe me there are a TON of photos of Southern freight trains in the 50s compared to the 30's so no bellyaching.  :-)

Dave

Wednesday, May 27, 2020, 5:16:37 PM, you wrote:


There was a long discussion which covered this topic on the old Freightcars List about 20 years ago. The upshot of a lot of analysis was that in the post war period "free roaming" cars - primarily boxcars- broadly reflected the overall US freightcar population.

That means even the big western roads would have a remarkably high number of PRR and NYC cars in any given train. You won't find this applies to say hoppers or other special cars in the same way, as they were rather more restricted in their use - you can reload an empty NP boxcar which arrived with a load of lumber and send it back towards home rails with a load of furniture or textiles, but finding a return load for an empty N&W hopper is much more difficult so they tended to return home empty by the most direct route

If you look at an ORER for 1955, and work out percentages from the totals for each road you won't be far off, at least as far as boxcars go.  Someone (perhaps Dave Bott?) had summarised  a few conductor's wheel reports from one of the Southern divisions and if you can find these they may give you an even better idea of which roads were most represented.  

I would be inclined to go for the typical rather than the oddball. While you may have a picture of a PRR hopper in, say, Mobile, Alabama, it doesn't necessarily suggest that this was a commonplace movement and I would be cautious about making such a car make more than a very occasional appearance

Aidrian


On Wed, 27 May 2020, 13:39 Allen Cain, <Allencaintn@...> wrote:

Can anyone give me a general idea of what percentage of cars on Southern main lines in 1955 would have been Southern?

I was thinking 50% but that is just a guess.

Any other percentages of other roads would be helpful too.

Thanks,

Allen Cain



--
David Bott

Sent from David Bott's desktop PC

moderated Re: Southern Railway Freight Car Mix in mid 1950s

Aidrian Bridgeman-Sutton
 

There was a long discussion which covered this topic on the old Freightcars List about 20 years ago. The upshot of a lot of analysis was that in the post war period "free roaming" cars - primarily boxcars- broadly reflected the overall US freightcar population. 

That means even the big western roads would have a remarkably high number of PRR and NYC cars in any given train. You won't find this applies to say hoppers or other special cars in the same way, as they were rather more restricted in their use - you can reload an empty NP boxcar which arrived with a load of lumber and send it back towards home rails with a load of furniture or textiles, but finding a return load for an empty N&W hopper is much more difficult so they tended to return home empty by the most direct route 

If you look at an ORER for 1955, and work out percentages from the totals for each road you won't be far off, at least as far as boxcars go.  Someone (perhaps Dave Bott?) had summarised  a few conductor's wheel reports from one of the Southern divisions and if you can find these they may give you an even better idea of which roads were most represented.  

I would be inclined to go for the typical rather than the oddball. While you may have a picture of a PRR hopper in, say, Mobile, Alabama, it doesn't necessarily suggest that this was a commonplace movement and I would be cautious about making such a car make more than a very occasional appearance 

Aidrian 


On Wed, 27 May 2020, 13:39 Allen Cain, <Allencaintn@...> wrote:
Can anyone give me a general idea of what percentage of cars on Southern main lines in 1955 would have been Southern?

I was thinking 50% but that is just a guess.

Any other percentages of other roads would be helpful too.

Thanks,

Allen Cain

moderated Southern Railway Freight Car Mix in mid 1950s

Allen Cain
 

Can anyone give me a general idea of what percentage of cars on Southern main lines in 1955 would have been Southern?

I was thinking 50% but that is just a guess.

Any other percentages of other roads would be helpful too.

Thanks,

Allen Cain

moderated Re: Hogshead cars

D. Scott Chatfield
 

Thanks for the replies about the Hogshead cars.  Very educational.  Completely outside of my work at the Southern in intermodal.  

If memory serves we did have some tire shipments by piggyback into the Atlanta ramp.  Goodyear was a customer, but they make more than just tires.

In the '80s and '90s Michelin shipped 50-foot boxcars of tires to a bonded warehouse in Norcross on the Stone Mountain Lead.  Mostly Railboxes if I recall correctly.


Scott Chatfield

moderated Re: Hogshead cars

Mark Demaline
 

When I called on Goodyear's Akron OH HQ for CSX, which back then -- in the 1990's -- also served the Gadsden plant, both we and NS were trying our best to retain the rail shipment of tires. I believe NS also tried
using the Southern hogshead cars there, but the Plant Manager, who I met on a visit there, loved trucks and hated rail. He even wanted to receive his carbon black shipments via truck instead of rail. We even looked
at supplying 86' Hi-cubes, and that was when NS furnished some of those Southern cars, but the tire loaders looked at one we had spotted, and said there was no way they would agree to even try to load tires in a
Hi-cube car. They were a tough bunch of guys, literally, as they could grab and squeeze some tires under each arm, and take them into a boxcar or truck trailer. Try that at home!

What finally ended the tires by rail, even for the NS, was a combination of more strict quality control and rejects by the automotive companies, who would refuse to install tires with scrapes and heavy marks on the
sidewalls onto new vehicles, and a trucking company which came up with a tire compactor, which not only reduced damage & rejects, but made the loaders' job a lot easier. Goodyear shared that they could load
more tires into a 45' trailer, using a compactor, than could be hand-loaded into a 50' boxcar. And faster. Goodyear would not share which trucking company held the design & rights, but we did some homework and
contacted that trucking company. However, as expected, they laughed at us, replied "No", and hung up the phone.

 Corrections and clarifications are welcome.  Regards,  ~ Mark D


-----Original Message-----
From: Robert Graham <rgraham2@...>

James,

I suspect the RJ Reynolds acquisition of a truck fleet would be tied in to the State of NC's imposition of the tobacco leaf processing tax and resultant company activity to avoid that expense by changing where processing occurred. The huge American Tobacco Co leaf processing plant and ageing sheds at Pennrington 2 miles north of the Reidsville passenger station and the main ATC cigarette mfg plant was also shut down at that time and ATC began daily trucking of processed leaf from the ATC Richmond VA leaf processing plant to Reidsville via a commercial truck line, Burton Lines, as well. The SOU "tobacco barns" used to be seen all over the K line north of Winston Salem and the A&Y to Brook Cove, where RJR had their huge leaf processing and ageing facility, as well as RJR Mocksville. I don't know the exact date of the tax change, but SOU in Reidsville in the late 1970's was flooded with boxcars that had brought tobacco in from both Richmond as well as inported tobacco from overseas, usually coming into Norfolk VA or Porrtsmouth VA. Reidsville even had a US Customs inspection officer stationed there to inspect and properly approve incoming tobacco imports from overseas. At my employer, Miller Brewing Reidsville Container Division, these cars that were used for shipping tobacco leaf in became the pool of cars that we would be sent by the SOU Reidsville Freight agent for loading briquetted aluminum scrap loaded on pallets for shipment back to Reynolds Metals (unrelated to RJ Reynolds Tobacco) in Alabama. This clean scrap (meaning undecorated - no ink printed label) and segregated by alloy, was quite valuable and went directly back into the melt shop at the aluminum smelter to be recast and rolled back into can stock sheet. I used to go back to the plant rail loading dock and inspect the cars and often found US Customs placards for Sou Ry and ACL/SCL RR's for loads of import tobacco. ATC never used tobacco barns in Reidsville or Pennrington that I recall. One additional factor was dock door spacing at both shipper and consignee. Both facilities would have to have a dock with proper door spacing and length to accommodate the tobacco barns. Older facilities built to handle smaller cars might not have been considered economically feasible to reconfigure

I can not say with certainty, but also suspect the use of SOU/NS "tobacco barns" for the shipping of tires from Goodyear Tire & Rubber could have started in Danville VA, as there were plenty of the SOU tobacco barns around there, too. Most of the major tobacco companies had warehousing and leaf processing facilities there. The SOU tobacco barns had one distinct disadvantage over other modern larger cu ft boxcars; they only had 25K floors, meaning the floor of these cars could only handle a maximum front axle loading weight of a forklift of 25,000 lbs. That limits the size of forklifts and the discrete loads being handled to about 12,000 lbs. The average smaller size forklift used in warehousing weighs about 12-13000 lbs. As forklifts work as a teeter-totter, the combined weight of the forklift and the load being lifted or moved bears almost entirely on the front axle, hence the floor load restriction. Most modern boxcars have at least a 50K floor and the cars we used for or biggest jumbo Redicon endstock coils, which weighted up to 30,000 lbs each had 65K floors. Goodyear loaded the tires be hand, literally throwing them in until every nook was filled. I think the SOU/NS was just trying to find a use for the cars and they worked for that. Same deal with our 16 oz can stock coils. They were rarely more than 7500 lbs, due to a narrow width and a maximum overall diameter to be able to fit on the uncoiler mandrel with proper operating clearance. These coils, like all can stock and end stock, were shipped laying flat on a pallet. So the 16 ox can stock coils worked out perfectly for loading in a tobacco barn without going over the floor weight limit. We used the double door cars to permit easier forklift entry and exit with a loaded coil pallet. The tires at Goodyear, being hand loaded, did not require the larger door clearance. Once they worked out, it appears Goodyear elected to go that route at a number of their other plants, based upon other reader comments.

Bob Graham   


moderated Re: Hogshead cars

Robert Graham
 

James,

I suspect the RJ Reynolds acquisition of a truck fleet would be tied in to the State of NC's imposition of the tobacco leaf processing tax and resultant company activity to avoid that expense by changing where processing occurred. The huge American Tobacco Co leaf processing plant and ageing sheds at Pennrington 2 miles north of the Reidsville passenger station and the main ATC cigarette mfg plant was also shut down at that time and ATC began daily trucking of processed leaf from the ATC Richmond VA leaf processing plant to Reidsville via a commercial truck line, Burton Lines, as well. The SOU "tobacco barns" used to be seen all over the K line north of Winston Salem and the A&Y to Brook Cove, where RJR had their huge leaf processing and ageing facility, as well as RJR Mocksville. I don't know the exact date of the tax change, but SOU in Reidsville in the late 1970's was flooded with boxcars that had brought tobacco in from both Richmond as well as inported tobacco from overseas, usually coming into Norfolk VA or Porrtsmouth VA. Reidsville even had a US Customs inspection officer stationed there to inspect and properly approve incoming tobacco imports from overseas. At my employer, Miller Brewing Reidsville Container Division, these cars that were used for shipping tobacco leaf in became the pool of cars that we would be sent by the SOU Reidsville Freight agent for loading briquetted aluminum scrap loaded on pallets for shipment back to Reynolds Metals (unrelated to RJ Reynolds Tobacco) in Alabama. This clean scrap (meaning undecorated - no ink printed label) and segregated by alloy, was quite valuable and went directly back into the melt shop at the aluminum smelter to be recast and rolled back into can stock sheet. I used to go back to the plant rail loading dock and inspect the cars and often found US Customs placards for Sou Ry and ACL/SCL RR's for loads of import tobacco. ATC never used tobacco barns in Reidsville or Pennrington that I recall. One additional factor was dock door spacing at both shipper and consignee. Both facilities would have to have a dock with proper door spacing and length to accommodate the tobacco barns. Older facilities built to handle smaller cars might not have been considered economically feasible to reconfigure

I can not say with certainty, but also suspect the use of SOU/NS "tobacco barns" for the shipping of tires from Goodyear Tire & Rubber could have started in Danville VA, as there were plenty of the SOU tobacco barns around there, too. Most of the major tobacco companies had warehousing and leaf processing facilities there. The SOU tobacco barns had one distinct disadvantage over other modern larger cu ft boxcars; they only had 25K floors, meaning the floor of these cars could only handle a maximum front axle loading weight of a forklift of 25,000 lbs. That limits the size of forklifts and the discrete loads being handled to about 12,000 lbs. The average smaller size forklift used in warehousing weighs about 12-13000 lbs. As forklifts work as a teeter-totter, the combined weight of the forklift and the load being lifted or moved bears almost entirely on the front axle, hence the floor load restriction. Most modern boxcars have at least a 50K floor and the cars we used for or biggest jumbo Redicon endstock coils, which weighted up to 30,000 lbs each had 65K floors. Goodyear loaded the tires be hand, literally throwing them in until every nook was filled. I think the SOU/NS was just trying to find a use for the cars and they worked for that. Same deal with our 16 oz can stock coils. They were rarely more than 7500 lbs, due to a narrow width and a maximum overall diameter to be able to fit on the uncoiler mandrel with proper operating clearance. These coils, like all can stock and end stock, were shipped laying flat on a pallet. So the 16 ox can stock coils worked out perfectly for loading in a tobacco barn without going over the floor weight limit. We used the double door cars to permit easier forklift entry and exit with a loaded coil pallet. The tires at Goodyear, being hand loaded, did not require the larger door clearance. Once they worked out, it appears Goodyear elected to go that route at a number of their other plants, based upon other reader comments.

Bob Graham   

-----------------------------------------

From: "James"
To: "main@southernrailway.groups.io"
Cc:
Sent: Tuesday May 26 2020 8:21:03AM
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Hogshead cars


Bob,

Thanks for the info.  Would that tax have coincided with RJ Reynolds purchase of a large trucking fleet in the early 1980’s?
I remember seeing these cars come from the RJ Reynolds Storage facility in Brook Cove, NC to Rural Hall and then switched to go back to Winston Salem, that was during the 1970’s.  RJ Reynolds also had a major facility in Lexington, KY.

I do remember seeing where they were used by NS on the NW Pumkin vine line from Roanoke to Winston Salem at Firestone, VA in tire service.
That was back when you could search car number locations on the NS Website.  Always meant to go and photograph them there.

Of course we still have one hidden away in Bramwell, W VA.      



James Wall
Rural Hall, NC



moderated Re: Hogshead cars

James
 


Bob,

Thanks for the info.  Would that tax have coincided with RJ Reynolds purchase of a large trucking fleet in the early 1980’s?
I remember seeing these cars come from the RJ Reynolds Storage facility in Brook Cove, NC to Rural Hall and then switched to go back to Winston Salem, that was during the 1970’s.  RJ Reynolds also had a major facility in Lexington, KY.

I do remember seeing where they were used by NS on the NW Pumkin vine line from Roanoke to Winston Salem at Firestone, VA in tire service.
That was back when you could search car number locations on the NS Website.  Always meant to go and photograph them there.

Of course we still have one hidden away in Bramwell, W VA.      



James Wall
Rural Hall, NC



moderated Re: Hogshead cars

Robert Graham
 

Absolutely they were in interchange service. They (all 3 types; original Coster Shop built dutch roof single door & flat roof single door; and P-S built flat roof double door) were in use hauling tobacco in and around the flue cured belt area in north central NC and southside VA for years, well into the post-NS merger era in the mid 1980's. A fair number even got NS paint and reporting marks. They also were seen in and around Lexington KY at the burley leaf processing plants of the major tobacco mfr's. Their classic, and original purpose was hauling tobacco for export to the Port of Morehead City NC, replacing 40 ft boxcars in that service. Most hauling of tobacco hogsheads ceased after the start of NC imposed a leaf processing tax by poundage on tobacco ageing and processing. This had the almost immediate effect of closing significant leaf processing facilities of major tobacco products mfr's (note that this did NOT affect production of retail tobacco products) and resulted in a surplus of these cars in the NS fleet. They finished their service lives early in the 21st century hauling truck and aircraft tires from Goodyear's Danville VA plant and believe it or not, hauling aluminum can coil stock on pallets to my employer's can plant in Reidsville NC; we had 6 of the P-S built double door cars in assigned service from Reynolds Metals Co Lister Hill Alabama to Reynolds Metals Can & End Plant in Reidsville NC. NS gave us a 50ft boxcar rate on these cars for an 85 ft IL car, that allowed us to place 3 additional coil pallets in them over the 60 ft double door cars were had been using. We ceased shipping by rail in 1998 by new owner edict. Goodyear ceased shipping tires in these cars in the early 2000's, and decided to ship products by truck. The cars disappeared from our area shortly thereafter; most had been in service for 40 years.

Bob Graham

-----------------------------------------

From: "D. Scott Chatfield"
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io
Cc:
Sent: Monday May 25 2020 10:04:01PM
Subject: [SouthernRailway] Hogshead cars

A few questions about the ever popular hogshead cars.

1)  Where they ever in interchange service?  Especially in their original role of hauling tobacco "hogsheads".

2) I think most of them spent their later years hauling tires, especially from the plant near Spartanburg.  When did that start?  When did they last haul tobacco?  Were they used for anything else?


Scott Chatfield