Date   
moderated Re: Southern weed spraying trains in 1960s

sgwarner88@...
 

Just a comment on the bridge greasing and the discontinuing.  In the late 70's, I went with Bernie Schwartz to a bridge that collapsed under a loaded Big Red coal train over the Big Warrior River on the NA.  It was a thru truss, and a hanger had broken.  So it was to be ultra sonic tested, but first all the grease had to be removed to allow the testing.  They found more cracked hangers (this led to replacing thru  truss bridges as much as possible), and the R&T Dept also recommended removing all grease from bridges, since it covered cracks and faults from the periodic inspection by B&B.  So rust and weathering is safer than uniform grease covering.....

Re: OC 5 at the unloading site

George Eichelberger
 

David:

I do not expect there is a specific TVRM “plan” for Sou 5 at this moment, its restoration will come first.

As it will be operational, as opposed to a “museum piece”, the car will certainly be used on TVRM trains to some degree. (Producing revenue for TVRM is important for any piece of rolling stock.)

The restoration work already done on the car was for it to be used as a “PV” on Amtrak. While attitudes at Amtrak, NS and CSX may not be supportive of any kind of private car or excursion moves at this time, TVRM cars have HEP, chemical toilets, etc. so all of those upgrades will be useful.

TVRM has two direct connections to NS and an “almost" connection to CSX…who can imagine what might be possible in the future?

Ike

PS Don’t forget TVRM’s Southern Budd diner 3307 recently purchased from Amtrak…another “main line” ready car.



On Jan 15, 2020, at 10:41 AM, David Payne via Groups.Io <davidcofga@...> wrote:


Ike,
Do you know TVRM's plan for the car?  Marv knows what I'm thinking ...
David Payne


In a message dated 1/15/2020 10:34:55 AM Eastern Standard Time, geichelberger@... writes:

Marvin:

Yes! That is the plan…

I will put the entire Point Richmond, OC-X…OC-5, NS8 file on line at this week ends archives work session (we’ll also take time to go see NS8). That file contains everything needed to restore Southern Railway No. 5 to its pre merger appearance. It would be great to see others interested in preserving the history of the Sou Rwy chip in with cash, technical help or elbow grease.

Ike


On Jan 15, 2020, at 9:41 AM, Marv Clemons <mclemonsjr@...> wrote:

Ike, you say the car will be restored as SR OC #5.  Would that be in original Pullman green paint as well?

Thanks,
Marv Clemons

Re: OC 5 at the unloading site

David Payne
 


Ike,
Do you know TVRM's plan for the car?  Marv knows what I'm thinking ...
David Payne


In a message dated 1/15/2020 10:34:55 AM Eastern Standard Time, geichelberger@... writes:

Marvin:

Yes! That is the plan…

I will put the entire Point Richmond, OC-X…OC-5, NS8 file on line at this week ends archives work session (we’ll also take time to go see NS8). That file contains everything needed to restore Southern Railway No. 5 to its pre merger appearance. It would be great to see others interested in preserving the history of the Sou Rwy chip in with cash, technical help or elbow grease.

Ike


On Jan 15, 2020, at 9:41 AM, Marv Clemons <mclemonsjr@...> wrote:

Ike, you say the car will be restored as SR OC #5.  Would that be in original Pullman green paint as well?

Thanks,
Marv Clemons

Re: OC 5 at the unloading site

George Eichelberger
 

Marvin:

Yes! That is the plan…

I will put the entire Point Richmond, OC-X…OC-5, NS8 file on line at this week ends archives work session (we’ll also take time to go see NS8). That file contains everything needed to restore Southern Railway No. 5 to its pre merger appearance. It would be great to see others interested in preserving the history of the Sou Rwy chip in with cash, technical help or elbow grease.

Ike


On Jan 15, 2020, at 9:41 AM, Marv Clemons <mclemonsjr@...> wrote:

Ike, you say the car will be restored as SR OC #5.  Would that be in original Pullman green paint as well?

Thanks,
Marv Clemons

Re: OC 5 at the unloading site

Carl Ardrey
 

Of course.  

On January 15, 2020 at 8:41 AM Marv Clemons <mclemonsjr@...> wrote:

Ike, you say the car will be restored as SR OC #5.  Would that be in original Pullman green paint as well?

Thanks,
Marv Clemons

 

Re: OC 5 at the unloading site

Marv Clemons
 

Ike, you say the car will be restored as SR OC #5.  Would that be in original Pullman green paint as well?

Thanks,
Marv Clemons

OC 5 at the unloading site

George Eichelberger
 

Southern Railway official car No 5 (disguised as NS No 8) arrived at Chattanooga this afternoon. It will be set on trucks tomorrow and moved to the TVRM Soule Shops to be restored as Southern Railway OC No 5. It was converted by the Southern from Pullman “Point Richmond” in 1956.

If anyone wants to help with putting it into service, please contact me or Tim Andrews at TVRM.

Ike





Re: Southern Wood Chip Service Hoppers

Jim King
 

The trucks under Ed’s shot of 73648 appear to be 40-ton, maybe 50-ton, capacity most likely left over from scrapped 40-ft boxcars.  The car’s 70-ton capacity is likely impossible now it’s in chip hauling service.  A 70-ton Barber-type truck would have 2 springs in the front row, 3 in the 2nd row and 2 in the inner row.  40-tonners have just 2 rows of 2 springs each while a 50-ton version has a 5th springs in the middle of the 4-spring array.

 

Maybe the lighter-than-clay (or coal) chip loads is the reasoning behind swapping old plain bearing trucks with lighter-duty RB’s.  Even soaking wet, chips wouldn’t approach 70-tons.

 

Jim King

http://smokymountainmodelworks.com/

 


--
Jim King
http://smokymountainmodelworks.com

Re: Clay hoppers

George Eichelberger
 

Scott:

I have not checked to see if they are correct for clay hopper conversions but they ARE absolutely correct for Southern. I questioned their freight car brown color with Roman lettering. The attached photo, and others I shot confirm they are SR prototypes, in FCB with proper lettering. Note the following photo from David Lehlbach. Actually, I should not have questioned it, Tangent does superior research and development.

May I suggest that everyone that models the Southern in HO should go to the Tangent web site and order several! We will only see this quality model if we support the companies that produce and sell them.

Ike

PS While people are ordering Southern cars, they might also consider getting a few “Dixie Line” L&N versions….they are beautiful!



On Jan 14, 2020, at 4:06 PM, D. Scott Chatfield <blindog@...> wrote:

Ike wondered:

> PS I have not checked but might the new Tangent hoppers be a starting point for a model of these?

Tangent's 3-bay hopper is a Pullman 15-panel PS-3, 2700cf if memory serves.  L&N owned a LOT.  Southern, I don't think so.

These clay hoppers were rebuilt from 9-panel 3-bays, a post-WW2 AAR standard design mostly associated with ACF.  I don't recall who built the Southern's.  (It's in the diagram book, I'm sure.)  Atlas makes a basic model of this car in their Trainman line.  The old MDC rib-side 3-bay is also this design.  Neither are going to be confused for a Tangent.

Ike might have been thinking of the recent Arrowhead Models coal hopper, which is a 12-panel 3-bay.  The original NS got some of these, and of course these went to the Southern.  I wonder why NS bought those?


Scott Chatfield
<Sou 73648 clay hopper (wood chips) Linwood Yard 7-96_2.jpeg>

Re: Clay hoppers

D. Scott Chatfield
 

Ike wondered:

> PS I have not checked but might the new Tangent hoppers be a starting point for a model of these?

Tangent's 3-bay hopper is a Pullman 15-panel PS-3, 2700cf if memory serves.  L&N owned a LOT.  Southern, I don't think so.

These clay hoppers were rebuilt from 9-panel 3-bays, a post-WW2 AAR standard design mostly associated with ACF.  I don't recall who built the Southern's.  (It's in the diagram book, I'm sure.)  Atlas makes a basic model of this car in their Trainman line.  The old MDC rib-side 3-bay is also this design.  Neither are going to be confused for a Tangent.

Ike might have been thinking of the recent Arrowhead Models coal hopper, which is a 12-panel 3-bay.  The original NS got some of these, and of course these went to the Southern.  I wonder why NS bought those?


Scott Chatfield

Re: Clay hoppers and the "cousin" Chip hop

D. Scott Chatfield
 

Thanks guys for the answers and pics.  Some serious weathering projects there!

I assume the reason for the "clamshell" doors is regular coal car doors wouldn't be tight enough to keep wet clay from leaking out.


Scott Chatfield

Southern Wood Chip Service Hoppers

 

Ike,
 
I’ve attached a photo I took in May of 1996.  I just don’t remember where I took it.  I was living in Charlotte at the time and somewhat likely that’s where I was.  Anyway, it shows the ‘wood chip loading only’ stenciling on the bottom ridge of the car.  I feel sure this car fits in your category.
 
Ed Locklin at mp367.
 
 
 
Sent from my Dell XPS 420.

moderated Re: Southern weed spraying trains in 1960s

C J Wyatt
 

Dave,

Good answer! I wonder if it was something thick and nasty which they had to heat up to get it to flow. Maybe they were burning some of the stuff itself to accomplish that goal.

Another question is what is in the tank on the other end?

Jack Wyatt 

On Tuesday, January 14, 2020, 12:25:46 PM EST, Dave Queener <dave@...> wrote:


Hi Ike,

Neat pic.

Short answer: Something nasty!

Dave

On 1/14/2020 11:27 AM, George Eichelberger wrote:
Dave:

Here is another photo of T-413. WHAT are they burning in that tank?

The origin of T-413 may be in the ICC records in the archives if it survived past 1926 or so when the valuation study began.

Ike



On Jan 14, 2020, at 10:57 AM, Dave Queener <dave@...> wrote:

Wow, Ike. That 1920s era Weed Killer Flat Car appears to be one of the CNO&TP truss rod flats with the bizarre steel channel truck side frames. That is ancient, pre-WWI stuff!

Dave Q


-- 
Owner, Cumberland Model Engineering
(865) 333-5712  www.CumberlandModelEngineering.com

Pastor, St. Paul Presbyterian Church
(865) 209-5654  www.StPaulPres.com

moderated Re: Southern weed spraying trains in 1960s

Dave Queener
 

Hi Ike,

Neat pic.

Short answer: Something nasty!

Dave

On 1/14/2020 11:27 AM, George Eichelberger wrote:
Dave:

Here is another photo of T-413. WHAT are they burning in that tank?

The origin of T-413 may be in the ICC records in the archives if it survived past 1926 or so when the valuation study began.

Ike



On Jan 14, 2020, at 10:57 AM, Dave Queener <dave@...> wrote:

Wow, Ike. That 1920s era Weed Killer Flat Car appears to be one of the CNO&TP truss rod flats with the bizarre steel channel truck side frames. That is ancient, pre-WWI stuff!

Dave Q


-- 
Owner, Cumberland Model Engineering
(865) 333-5712  www.CumberlandModelEngineering.com

Pastor, St. Paul Presbyterian Church
(865) 209-5654  www.StPaulPres.com

moderated Re: Southern weed spraying trains in 1960s

George Eichelberger
 

Dave:

Here is another photo of T-413. WHAT are they burning in that tank?

The origin of T-413 may be in the ICC records in the archives if it survived past 1926 or so when the valuation study began.

Ike



On Jan 14, 2020, at 10:57 AM, Dave Queener <dave@...> wrote:

Wow, Ike. That 1920s era Weed Killer Flat Car appears to be one of the CNO&TP truss rod flats with the bizarre steel channel truck side frames. That is ancient, pre-WWI stuff!

Dave Q


moderated Re: Southern weed spraying trains in 1960s

Dave Queener
 

Wow, Ike. That 1920s era Weed Killer Flat Car appears to be one of the CNO&TP truss rod flats with the bizarre steel channel truck side frames. That is ancient, pre-WWI stuff!

Dave Q

On 1/13/2020 9:11 AM, George Eichelberger wrote:
The January 23, 1969 Mow renumbering plan shows the following old and new road numbers for the “weed killer flat cars” in service at that time. 

991491
weed killer flat car
to be renumbered from OSM-1
991492
weed killer flat car
to be renumbered from 116820
991495
weed killer flat car
to be renumbered from OSM-3
991496
weed killer flat car
to be renumbered from 117929
991497
weed killer flat car
to be renumbered from OSM-4
991498
weed killer flat car
to be renumbered from 117534

From photos, we can see that Sou 991497 was paired with Sou 991498, …497 being the lead car doing the spraying (an engine pushed the outfit) and …498 having a pump to bring the spray mix out of specially equipped tank cars and pass it to 991497. That appears to agree with the renumbering showing 991497 renumbered from OSM-4 (a modified car) and 991498 renumbered from 117534, a standard flat car.

There is no documentation of what “OSM” refers to but it may be “oil spraying machine”. In the 50s and 60s, the Southern sprayed oil on bridges thinking it retarded rust. Other than maybe accumulating dirt that attracted more water, the railroad stopped using it.

Shown only as “T-413” on captions from the SRHA Ben Roberts collection, the two attached photos are of a 1920s era weed burner. (The “T” prefix does not tell us much, that refers to a “tool” car that can be about anything.)

Ike

PS The January SRHA archives work session is this coming weekend. If the weather permits, Norfolk Southern office car OC-8 (Sou 5) will be set on its trucks from its highway mover (along Holtzsclaw Ave beside NS) and moved to the East Chattanooga shop on Wednesday. (It MAY be enroute on the Interstates from Madison, Ill via Nashville now.)







On Jan 9, 2020, at 3:44 PM, Alexander Smart <agfsmart@...> wrote:




Begin forwarded message:

From: "agfsmart via Groups.Io" <agfsmart@...>
Date: 27 November 2019 at 23:48:40 GMT
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io
Subject: [SouthernRailway] Southern weed spraying trains in 1960s
Reply-To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io

Hello 

I model Southern outdoors in 1/29 scale and indoors in HO, in Oban, Scotland.
I need more information, photos and possibly diagrams of the consist of these trains.
I checked Ralph Ward’s Southern Railway Pictorial which shows such a train at Asheville in July 1973: CNO&TP F7 6119, caboose X636, UTLX tank car 39918 and 2 special sprayer cars including 991495.
I have in 1/29 an F3, caboose and tank car but need to adapt and detail a couple of flatcars to the sprayer car specifics. 
This would make a very unusual and striking extra on my garden railroad!
If anyone has more information, particularly photos or diagrams of these cars, I would be very grateful.

Kind regards

Sandy Smart

-- 
Owner, Cumberland Model Engineering
(865) 333-5712  www.CumberlandModelEngineering.com

Pastor, St. Paul Presbyterian Church
(865) 209-5654  www.StPaulPres.com

Re: Clay hoppers and the "cousin" Chip hop

George Eichelberger
 

All:

This is a shameless ad for SRHA’s three-book set Southern Railway Freight Car Diagrams. SRHA has sold hundreds of copies over the years but the current printing is almost gone (more are not planned at this time). They are available on the SRHA web site (www.srha.net) in the “Grab” section. Because the SRHA set contains pages from multiple originals, it is more comprehensive than any set ever published by the railroad.

We will be mailing Grab orders at the work session this weekend. Orders received this week should go out quickly.

Page H-3201, showing the clay hoppers is attached. The books are basic, and most important, for anyone interested in Southern Railway freight equipment.

Ike


On Jan 14, 2020, at 9:11 AM, Kevin von der Lippe <kevin.vonderlippe@...> wrote:

Dave,
 
SR converted 70 cars from their 70 Ton 3-bay hoppers in 1956.
 
Kevin von der Lippe
Oak Ridge, NC

Re: Clay hoppers and the "cousin" Chip hop

Kevin von der Lippe
 

Dave,

 

SR converted 70 cars from their 70 Ton 3-bay hoppers in 1956.

 

Kevin von der Lippe

Oak Ridge, NC

moderated Re: Southern weed spraying trains in 1960s

Bill Schafer
 

A few clarifications for Sandy Smart:

* OSM does indeed stand for “Oil Spray Machine” (or “spraying”). As Ike says below, the alpha-numeric numbers were converted to 99XXXX-series MofW numbers in 1969.
* The pictures included with Ike’s post do NOT depict the OSM cars. The OSMs were creatures of the diesel era.
* Bridges were NOT sprayed with oil preservative; it was a thick grease that was applied with some mechanism other than the OSM outfit - a hand-held hose, as I recall. It was really messy. The grease was intended to retard deterioration of the metal but it could hide cracks in the bridge structure, so use of it was discontinued.
* Below is a picture of the OSM machine I think you had in mind to model for your outdoor railroad. This is the best picture I could find; maybe some others can add better images.

—Bill



On Jan 13, 2020, at 9:11 AM, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:

The January 23, 1969 Mow renumbering plan shows the following old and new road numbers for the “weed killer flat cars” in service at that time. 

991491
weed killer flat car
to be renumbered from OSM-1
991492
weed killer flat car
to be renumbered from 116820
991495
weed killer flat car
to be renumbered from OSM-3
991496
weed killer flat car
to be renumbered from 117929
991497
weed killer flat car
to be renumbered from OSM-4
991498
weed killer flat car
to be renumbered from 117534

From photos, we can see that Sou 991497 was paired with Sou 991498, …497 being the lead car doing the spraying (an engine pushed the outfit) and …498 having a pump to bring the spray mix out of specially equipped tank cars and pass it to 991497. That appears to agree with the renumbering showing 991497 renumbered from OSM-4 (a modified car) and 991498 renumbered from 117534, a standard flat car.

There is no documentation of what “OSM” refers to but it may be “oil spraying machine”. In the 50s and 60s, the Southern sprayed oil on bridges thinking it retarded rust. Other than maybe accumulating dirt that attracted more water, the railroad stopped using it.

Shown only as “T-413” on captions from the SRHA Ben Roberts collection, the two attached photos are of a 1920s era weed burner. (The “T” prefix does not tell us much, that refers to a “tool” car that can be about anything.)

Ike

PS The January SRHA archives work session is this coming weekend. If the weather permits, Norfolk Southern office car OC-8 (Sou 5) will be set on its trucks from its highway mover (along Holtzsclaw Ave beside NS) and moved to the East Chattanooga shop on Wednesday. (It MAY be enroute on the Interstates from Madison, Ill via Nashville now.)

<Sou T-413 on weed burner train circa 1920s_2.jpeg>

<Sou T-413 on weed burner train circa 1920s_5.jpeg>





On Jan 9, 2020, at 3:44 PM, Alexander Smart <agfsmart@...> wrote:




Begin forwarded message:

From: "agfsmart via Groups.Io" <agfsmart@...>
Date: 27 November 2019 at 23:48:40 GMT
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io
Subject: [SouthernRailway] Southern weed spraying trains in 1960s
Reply-To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io

Hello 

I model Southern outdoors in 1/29 scale and indoors in HO, in Oban, Scotland.
I need more information, photos and possibly diagrams of the consist of these trains.
I checked Ralph Ward’s Southern Railway Pictorial which shows such a train at Asheville in July 1973: CNO&TP F7 6119, caboose X636, UTLX tank car 39918 and 2 special sprayer cars including 991495.
I have in 1/29 an F3, caboose and tank car but need to adapt and detail a couple of flatcars to the sprayer car specifics. 
This would make a very unusual and striking extra on my garden railroad!
If anyone has more information, particularly photos or diagrams of these cars, I would be very grateful.

Kind regards

Sandy Smart


Re: Clay hoppers and the "cousin" Chip hop

Sam Smith
 

Oh wow! I just found and looked over the picture that Mr. Ike posted. Judging by the cars ahead of and behind this mystery "clay to chip" hopper, this car was in this service after the Norfolk Southern disaster..........I mean merger! This really makes me scratch my head, so to speak. I would have thought, without looking it up, that these cars (the whole series) would have been on their last leg by 1983. They had to be going on 40 years old by then. And, as was pointed out, a car that size would never get anywhere near max cubic capacity carrying wood chips or saw dust. But then again, that is one of those dying commodities where the railroads are concerned. It's been almost 10 years since I have seen wood chips on the rails around here. There was a time though, when didn't hardly a train move without at least a half dozen chip hoppers in the consist.
Oh for the "good old days"!

Sam


On Mon, Jan 13, 2020 at 11:23 PM, David Payne via Groups.Io
<davidcofga@...> wrote:

Sam,
I know what you mean.  And as I get older I always add, "As I recall ..."
David


In a message dated 1/13/2020 11:19:09 PM Eastern Standard Time, sam_smith2004@... writes:

David,
I guess I missed the photograph. Well, I presume that's why we should never say never when it comes to the prototype railroads. It does make me wonder if it was a "short term" solution until the bigger cars became available.
Anyway, thanks for the information.

Sam



On Mon, Jan 13, 2020 at 11:12 PM, A&Y Dave in MD
<dbott@...> wrote:

How early were these hoppers in service?   When were they taking over for the Seley type composite hoppers that I understand were also used in clay service along the CF line?

Dave



--
David Bott

Sent from David Bott's desktop PC