Date   
moderated Re: Enoree River

Kevin Centers
 

The pictures went to Charlie Poling and Chris Williams. Their company, East Tn Railcar owns the car. It is currently in storage awaiting restoration.  It’s safe and in a good home. 

On Aug 7, 2019, at 12:10 PM, Ed Mims <wemims@...> wrote:

Kevin,

 

Thanks for the info. I sent all of the photos in my collection of the Fort Benning (interior and exterior) to someone at SARM and I’m now wondering what the status of that car is. I believe it was owned by two of the SARM members who planned to restore it. Do you know who this was and what progress they have made? I lost my record of who the photos went to.

 

Ed

 

From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io [mailto:main@SouthernRailway.groups.io] On Behalf Of Kevin Centers
Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2019 11:55 AM
To: main@southernrailway.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Enoree River

 

Ed

 

That photo was taken in Oak Ridge at SARM. When we received the car it didn’t look that good. With a lot of work by our volunteer staff, the car was restored to match the Fort Oglethorpe, also at SARM. Both cars made it to Southern and both wore the standard (by that time) Southern black roof and monogram. And both retained their names. They are very noticeable in Southern passenger train pictures because of their skirts. 

In another note, the building in the background is a gaseous diffusion enrichment facility to produce bomb-grade material. It was torn down several years ago, along with most of the buildings at the former K-25 facility. 

 

Kevin

 

 


On Aug 7, 2019, at 11:12 AM, Ed Mims <wemims@...> wrote:

Ed, Thanks for the photo. I have not seen this and was not aware that the car kept its name and number into the Southern era. The 54-seat Budd coaches were very nice cars. Thank you very much.

 

Ed Mims

 

From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io [mailto:main@SouthernRailway.groups.io] On Behalf Of Edwin Locklin
Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2019 11:02 AM
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Enoree River

 

Mr. Mims,

 

I happen to have the attached photo of #665 with painted black smooth roof and ‘Fort McPherson’ on the nameplate.  Enjoy!

 

Ed Locklin at mp367.

 


 

 

From: Ed Mims

Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2019 8:25 PM

Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Enoree River

 

Kevin,

 

I’ve been searching my files to find a photo of 665 after repairs were made but must not have one. I’m beginning to believe that you are correct in that Southern applied the smooth roof but I have always thought differently. I recall the car coming into Jacksonville in about 1965 on the Ponce de Leon with a smooth roof and with Central of Georgia still on the letter board.

 

Ed

 

 

From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io [mailto:main@SouthernRailway.groups.io] On Behalf Of Kevin Centers
Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2019 8:12 PM
To: main@southernrailway.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Enoree River

 

Ed

 

You wouldn’t happen to have a picture of the car post wreck but prior to going to Southern?  I don’t, but would love to see it.

I question that Budd applied the smooth roof, primarily because they would still have the tooling set up to remove the damaged portions of the original roof and replace them with fluted material.  In looking at some of the repairs done on the car by Budd, they pretty well stuck to their going practice at the time-which meant fluted roofs all the way through the Amfleet cars. Not saying it didn’t happen, but my bet is Southern did it since other Budds in the fleet received the same treatment.

 

Kevin


On Aug 6, 2019, at 8:01 PM, Ed Mims <wemims@...> wrote:

The CofGa car 665 (formerly Fort McPherson) was wrecked and repaired by Budd. That is why it has a smooth stainless steel roof. See attachment.

 

Stainless steel does not corrode but it is not totally indestructible. Stainless steel will fatigue in service and fracture (crack). Once this begins it is irreversible. The pre-war cars had this problem with the early design of center sills. Later designs were heavier and stayed in regular service for many years. Post war cars were much sturdier and some remain in service today (example:  VIA RAIL  THE CANADIAN).

 

Ed Mims

 

From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io [mailto:main@SouthernRailway.groups.io] On Behalf Of Kevin Centers
Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2019 7:21 PM
To: main@southernrailway.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Enoree River

 

Curt

 

Budds were built with fluted roofs. Being of all stainless construction, the cars were-and in many cases still are-practically indestructible. Unfortunately they leak. Sometimes a little silicon will do the trick, but some are a little worse. Southern fixed the issue by applying smooth stainless over the flutes. SOU 665 (former CofGa 665) at Southern Appalachia Ry Museum is a good example of this. Built by Budd with a fluted roof with smooth panels applied by Southern.

 

Kevin


On Aug 6, 2019, at 7:02 PM, Curt Fortenberry <curtfortenberry@...> wrote:


Alaska RR got several of the SR coaches (one CofG) after Amtrak took over the Crescent (all Budd built).   Roofs varied among the lot.  Some fluted roofs, some smooth (were these replacement roofs?).  Some natural metal, some black. 

Photos can be found here:  http://www.alaskarails.org/fp/passenger/passenger-roster-retired.html   Scroll down to the 5200 group.

Curt Fortenberry

<CG Fort McPherson WEM 010.jpg>

<CG CofGa Railway Passenger Equipment (March 2 1955) 058.tif>

moderated Re: Low side gons

C J Wyatt
 

Any hope of producing a kit of the un-rebuilt  car?

Jack


On Wednesday, August 7, 2019, 12:32:05 PM EDT, Jim King <jimking3@...> wrote:


Not all 9-ribbers were rebuilt in 1945; some lasted as-built well into the 60s based on photos.

 

Jim King

www.smokymountainmodelworks.com

 


--
Jim King
www.smokymountainmodelworks.com

moderated Re: Low side gons

Jim King
 

Not all 9-ribbers were rebuilt in 1945; some lasted as-built well into the 60s based on photos.

 

Jim King

www.smokymountainmodelworks.com

 


--
Jim King
www.smokymountainmodelworks.com

moderated Re: Enoree River

Ed Mims
 

Kevin,

 

Thanks for the info. I sent all of the photos in my collection of the Fort Benning (interior and exterior) to someone at SARM and I’m now wondering what the status of that car is. I believe it was owned by two of the SARM members who planned to restore it. Do you know who this was and what progress they have made? I lost my record of who the photos went to.

 

Ed

 

From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io [mailto:main@SouthernRailway.groups.io] On Behalf Of Kevin Centers
Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2019 11:55 AM
To: main@southernrailway.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Enoree River

 

Ed

 

That photo was taken in Oak Ridge at SARM. When we received the car it didn’t look that good. With a lot of work by our volunteer staff, the car was restored to match the Fort Oglethorpe, also at SARM. Both cars made it to Southern and both wore the standard (by that time) Southern black roof and monogram. And both retained their names. They are very noticeable in Southern passenger train pictures because of their skirts. 

In another note, the building in the background is a gaseous diffusion enrichment facility to produce bomb-grade material. It was torn down several years ago, along with most of the buildings at the former K-25 facility. 

 

Kevin

 

 


On Aug 7, 2019, at 11:12 AM, Ed Mims <wemims@...> wrote:

Ed, Thanks for the photo. I have not seen this and was not aware that the car kept its name and number into the Southern era. The 54-seat Budd coaches were very nice cars. Thank you very much.

 

Ed Mims

 

From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io [mailto:main@SouthernRailway.groups.io] On Behalf Of Edwin Locklin
Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2019 11:02 AM
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Enoree River

 

Mr. Mims,

 

I happen to have the attached photo of #665 with painted black smooth roof and ‘Fort McPherson’ on the nameplate.  Enjoy!

 

Ed Locklin at mp367.

 


 

 

From: Ed Mims

Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2019 8:25 PM

Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Enoree River

 

Kevin,

 

I’ve been searching my files to find a photo of 665 after repairs were made but must not have one. I’m beginning to believe that you are correct in that Southern applied the smooth roof but I have always thought differently. I recall the car coming into Jacksonville in about 1965 on the Ponce de Leon with a smooth roof and with Central of Georgia still on the letter board.

 

Ed

 

 

From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io [mailto:main@SouthernRailway.groups.io] On Behalf Of Kevin Centers
Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2019 8:12 PM
To: main@southernrailway.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Enoree River

 

Ed

 

You wouldn’t happen to have a picture of the car post wreck but prior to going to Southern?  I don’t, but would love to see it.

I question that Budd applied the smooth roof, primarily because they would still have the tooling set up to remove the damaged portions of the original roof and replace them with fluted material.  In looking at some of the repairs done on the car by Budd, they pretty well stuck to their going practice at the time-which meant fluted roofs all the way through the Amfleet cars. Not saying it didn’t happen, but my bet is Southern did it since other Budds in the fleet received the same treatment.

 

Kevin


On Aug 6, 2019, at 8:01 PM, Ed Mims <wemims@...> wrote:

The CofGa car 665 (formerly Fort McPherson) was wrecked and repaired by Budd. That is why it has a smooth stainless steel roof. See attachment.

 

Stainless steel does not corrode but it is not totally indestructible. Stainless steel will fatigue in service and fracture (crack). Once this begins it is irreversible. The pre-war cars had this problem with the early design of center sills. Later designs were heavier and stayed in regular service for many years. Post war cars were much sturdier and some remain in service today (example:  VIA RAIL  THE CANADIAN).

 

Ed Mims

 

From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io [mailto:main@SouthernRailway.groups.io] On Behalf Of Kevin Centers
Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2019 7:21 PM
To: main@southernrailway.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Enoree River

 

Curt

 

Budds were built with fluted roofs. Being of all stainless construction, the cars were-and in many cases still are-practically indestructible. Unfortunately they leak. Sometimes a little silicon will do the trick, but some are a little worse. Southern fixed the issue by applying smooth stainless over the flutes. SOU 665 (former CofGa 665) at Southern Appalachia Ry Museum is a good example of this. Built by Budd with a fluted roof with smooth panels applied by Southern.

 

Kevin


On Aug 6, 2019, at 7:02 PM, Curt Fortenberry <curtfortenberry@...> wrote:


Alaska RR got several of the SR coaches (one CofG) after Amtrak took over the Crescent (all Budd built).   Roofs varied among the lot.  Some fluted roofs, some smooth (were these replacement roofs?).  Some natural metal, some black. 

Photos can be found here:  http://www.alaskarails.org/fp/passenger/passenger-roster-retired.html   Scroll down to the 5200 group.

Curt Fortenberry

<CG Fort McPherson WEM 010.jpg>

<CG CofGa Railway Passenger Equipment (March 2 1955) 058.tif>

moderated Re: Enoree River

Kevin Centers
 

Ed

That photo was taken in Oak Ridge at SARM. When we received the car it didn’t look that good. With a lot of work by our volunteer staff, the car was restored to match the Fort Oglethorpe, also at SARM. Both cars made it to Southern and both wore the standard (by that time) Southern black roof and monogram. And both retained their names. They are very noticeable in Southern passenger train pictures because of their skirts. 
In another note, the building in the background is a gaseous diffusion enrichment facility to produce bomb-grade material. It was torn down several years ago, along with most of the buildings at the former K-25 facility. 

Kevin



On Aug 7, 2019, at 11:12 AM, Ed Mims <wemims@...> wrote:

Ed, Thanks for the photo. I have not seen this and was not aware that the car kept its name and number into the Southern era. The 54-seat Budd coaches were very nice cars. Thank you very much.

 

Ed Mims

 

From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io [mailto:main@SouthernRailway.groups.io] On Behalf Of Edwin Locklin
Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2019 11:02 AM
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Enoree River

 

Mr. Mims,

 

I happen to have the attached photo of #665 with painted black smooth roof and ‘Fort McPherson’ on the nameplate.  Enjoy!

 

Ed Locklin at mp367.

 


 

 

From: Ed Mims

Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2019 8:25 PM

Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Enoree River

 

Kevin,

 

I’ve been searching my files to find a photo of 665 after repairs were made but must not have one. I’m beginning to believe that you are correct in that Southern applied the smooth roof but I have always thought differently. I recall the car coming into Jacksonville in about 1965 on the Ponce de Leon with a smooth roof and with Central of Georgia still on the letter board.

 

Ed

 

 

From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io [mailto:main@SouthernRailway.groups.io] On Behalf Of Kevin Centers
Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2019 8:12 PM
To: main@southernrailway.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Enoree River

 

Ed

 

You wouldn’t happen to have a picture of the car post wreck but prior to going to Southern?  I don’t, but would love to see it.

I question that Budd applied the smooth roof, primarily because they would still have the tooling set up to remove the damaged portions of the original roof and replace them with fluted material.  In looking at some of the repairs done on the car by Budd, they pretty well stuck to their going practice at the time-which meant fluted roofs all the way through the Amfleet cars. Not saying it didn’t happen, but my bet is Southern did it since other Budds in the fleet received the same treatment.

 

Kevin


On Aug 6, 2019, at 8:01 PM, Ed Mims <wemims@...> wrote:

The CofGa car 665 (formerly Fort McPherson) was wrecked and repaired by Budd. That is why it has a smooth stainless steel roof. See attachment.

 

Stainless steel does not corrode but it is not totally indestructible. Stainless steel will fatigue in service and fracture (crack). Once this begins it is irreversible. The pre-war cars had this problem with the early design of center sills. Later designs were heavier and stayed in regular service for many years. Post war cars were much sturdier and some remain in service today (example:  VIA RAIL  THE CANADIAN).

 

Ed Mims

 

From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io [mailto:main@SouthernRailway.groups.io] On Behalf Of Kevin Centers
Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2019 7:21 PM
To: main@southernrailway.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Enoree River

 

Curt

 

Budds were built with fluted roofs. Being of all stainless construction, the cars were-and in many cases still are-practically indestructible. Unfortunately they leak. Sometimes a little silicon will do the trick, but some are a little worse. Southern fixed the issue by applying smooth stainless over the flutes. SOU 665 (former CofGa 665) at Southern Appalachia Ry Museum is a good example of this. Built by Budd with a fluted roof with smooth panels applied by Southern.

 

Kevin


On Aug 6, 2019, at 7:02 PM, Curt Fortenberry <curtfortenberry@...> wrote:


Alaska RR got several of the SR coaches (one CofG) after Amtrak took over the Crescent (all Budd built).   Roofs varied among the lot.  Some fluted roofs, some smooth (were these replacement roofs?).  Some natural metal, some black. 

Photos can be found here:  http://www.alaskarails.org/fp/passenger/passenger-roster-retired.html   Scroll down to the 5200 group.

Curt Fortenberry

<CG Fort McPherson WEM 010.jpg>

<CG CofGa Railway Passenger Equipment (March 2 1955) 058.tif>

moderated Re: Enoree River

Ed Mims
 

Ed, Thanks for the photo. I have not seen this and was not aware that the car kept its name and number into the Southern era. The 54-seat Budd coaches were very nice cars. Thank you very much.

 

Ed Mims

 

From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io [mailto:main@SouthernRailway.groups.io] On Behalf Of Edwin Locklin
Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2019 11:02 AM
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Enoree River

 

Mr. Mims,

 

I happen to have the attached photo of #665 with painted black smooth roof and ‘Fort McPherson’ on the nameplate.  Enjoy!

 

Ed Locklin at mp367.

 


 

 

From: Ed Mims

Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2019 8:25 PM

To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io

Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Enoree River

 

Kevin,

 

I’ve been searching my files to find a photo of 665 after repairs were made but must not have one. I’m beginning to believe that you are correct in that Southern applied the smooth roof but I have always thought differently. I recall the car coming into Jacksonville in about 1965 on the Ponce de Leon with a smooth roof and with Central of Georgia still on the letter board.

 

Ed

 

 

From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io [mailto:main@SouthernRailway.groups.io] On Behalf Of Kevin Centers
Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2019 8:12 PM
To: main@southernrailway.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Enoree River

 

Ed

 

You wouldn’t happen to have a picture of the car post wreck but prior to going to Southern?  I don’t, but would love to see it.

I question that Budd applied the smooth roof, primarily because they would still have the tooling set up to remove the damaged portions of the original roof and replace them with fluted material.  In looking at some of the repairs done on the car by Budd, they pretty well stuck to their going practice at the time-which meant fluted roofs all the way through the Amfleet cars. Not saying it didn’t happen, but my bet is Southern did it since other Budds in the fleet received the same treatment.

 

Kevin


On Aug 6, 2019, at 8:01 PM, Ed Mims <wemims@...> wrote:

The CofGa car 665 (formerly Fort McPherson) was wrecked and repaired by Budd. That is why it has a smooth stainless steel roof. See attachment.

 

Stainless steel does not corrode but it is not totally indestructible. Stainless steel will fatigue in service and fracture (crack). Once this begins it is irreversible. The pre-war cars had this problem with the early design of center sills. Later designs were heavier and stayed in regular service for many years. Post war cars were much sturdier and some remain in service today (example:  VIA RAIL  THE CANADIAN).

 

Ed Mims

 

From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io [mailto:main@SouthernRailway.groups.io] On Behalf Of Kevin Centers
Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2019 7:21 PM
To: main@southernrailway.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Enoree River

 

Curt

 

Budds were built with fluted roofs. Being of all stainless construction, the cars were-and in many cases still are-practically indestructible. Unfortunately they leak. Sometimes a little silicon will do the trick, but some are a little worse. Southern fixed the issue by applying smooth stainless over the flutes. SOU 665 (former CofGa 665) at Southern Appalachia Ry Museum is a good example of this. Built by Budd with a fluted roof with smooth panels applied by Southern.

 

Kevin


On Aug 6, 2019, at 7:02 PM, Curt Fortenberry <curtfortenberry@...> wrote:


Alaska RR got several of the SR coaches (one CofG) after Amtrak took over the Crescent (all Budd built).   Roofs varied among the lot.  Some fluted roofs, some smooth (were these replacement roofs?).  Some natural metal, some black. 

Photos can be found here:  http://www.alaskarails.org/fp/passenger/passenger-roster-retired.html   Scroll down to the 5200 group.

Curt Fortenberry

<CG Fort McPherson WEM 010.jpg>

moderated Re: Enoree River

 

Mr. Mims,
 
I happen to have the attached photo of #665 with painted black smooth roof and ‘Fort McPherson’ on the nameplate.  Enjoy!
 
Ed Locklin at mp367.
 

 
 

From: Ed Mims
Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2019 8:25 PM
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Enoree River
 

Kevin,

 

I’ve been searching my files to find a photo of 665 after repairs were made but must not have one. I’m beginning to believe that you are correct in that Southern applied the smooth roof but I have always thought differently. I recall the car coming into Jacksonville in about 1965 on the Ponce de Leon with a smooth roof and with Central of Georgia still on the letter board.

 

Ed

 

 

From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io [mailto:main@SouthernRailway.groups.io] On Behalf Of Kevin Centers
Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2019 8:12 PM
To: main@southernrailway.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Enoree River

 

Ed

 

You wouldn’t happen to have a picture of the car post wreck but prior to going to Southern?  I don’t, but would love to see it.

I question that Budd applied the smooth roof, primarily because they would still have the tooling set up to remove the damaged portions of the original roof and replace them with fluted material.  In looking at some of the repairs done on the car by Budd, they pretty well stuck to their going practice at the time-which meant fluted roofs all the way through the Amfleet cars. Not saying it didn’t happen, but my bet is Southern did it since other Budds in the fleet received the same treatment.

 

Kevin


On Aug 6, 2019, at 8:01 PM, Ed Mims <wemims@...> wrote:

The CofGa car 665 (formerly Fort McPherson) was wrecked and repaired by Budd. That is why it has a smooth stainless steel roof. See attachment.

 

Stainless steel does not corrode but it is not totally indestructible. Stainless steel will fatigue in service and fracture (crack). Once this begins it is irreversible. The pre-war cars had this problem with the early design of center sills. Later designs were heavier and stayed in regular service for many years. Post war cars were much sturdier and some remain in service today (example:  VIA RAIL  THE CANADIAN).

 

Ed Mims

 

From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io [mailto:main@SouthernRailway.groups.io] On Behalf Of Kevin Centers
Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2019 7:21 PM
To: main@southernrailway.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Enoree River

 

Curt

 

Budds were built with fluted roofs. Being of all stainless construction, the cars were-and in many cases still are-practically indestructible. Unfortunately they leak. Sometimes a little silicon will do the trick, but some are a little worse. Southern fixed the issue by applying smooth stainless over the flutes. SOU 665 (former CofGa 665) at Southern Appalachia Ry Museum is a good example of this. Built by Budd with a fluted roof with smooth panels applied by Southern.

 

Kevin


On Aug 6, 2019, at 7:02 PM, Curt Fortenberry <curtfortenberry@...> wrote:


Alaska RR got several of the SR coaches (one CofG) after Amtrak took over the Crescent (all Budd built).   Roofs varied among the lot.  Some fluted roofs, some smooth (were these replacement roofs?).  Some natural metal, some black. 

Photos can be found here:  http://www.alaskarails.org/fp/passenger/passenger-roster-retired.html   Scroll down to the 5200 group.

Curt Fortenberry

<CG Fort McPherson WEM 010.jpg>

moderated Re: Southern dining car 3307 and OC 5 to TVRM

Marv Clemons
 

I stand corrected. To further the argument, If you wanted the livery to be true to the car's original heritage, it would be in Pullman's two-tone grey as delivered to the SP.  Heritage aside, I appreciate your raitonale for wanting the car in Tuscan, otherwise your Summerville consist would resemble Amtrak's "early circus" color scheme.

moderated Re: Enoree River

Ed Mims
 

Thanks Kevin. I’m interested in what you find out so please keep me informed.

 

The Central of Georgia did join Amtrak on April 1, 1971. This was a very controversial move by Southern as owner of the CofGa and not join themselves. This allowed the discontinuance of the Nancy Hanks, the Seminole and the City of Miami. The Man O’war had been discontinued previously--don’t recall the date. David Payne will know.

 

Ed

 

From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io [mailto:main@SouthernRailway.groups.io] On Behalf Of Kevin Centers
Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2019 8:33 PM
To: main@southernrailway.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Enoree River

 

Ed

 

I’m not saying I know it all, but since I’ve been working on helping get it restored for a while, I’m at least pretty familiar with it. And it’s twin the Fort Oglethorpe. Somewhere (there’s a big word) in the SRHA archives, the car files show it, the Mitchell and Oglethorpe going to Hayne shortly after the merger. Southern did work on the cars-which if memory serves was desperately needed by that time. It wasn’t until March of 1971 that the ownership of the Central cars was transferred to Southern. Probably in an attempt to preclude Amtrak from taking possession of them since I believe Central technically joined Amtrak on April 1. So it makes sense that Southern could have done the work prior to a change on the letterboard. 

 

Kevin

 

 


On Aug 6, 2019, at 8:25 PM, Ed Mims <wemims@...> wrote:

Kevin,

 

I’ve been searching my files to find a photo of 665 after repairs were made but must not have one. I’m beginning to believe that you are correct in that Southern applied the smooth roof but I have always thought differently. I recall the car coming into Jacksonville in about 1965 on the Ponce de Leon with a smooth roof and with Central of Georgia still on the letter board.

 

Ed

 

 

From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io [mailto:main@SouthernRailway.groups.io] On Behalf Of Kevin Centers
Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2019 8:12 PM
To: main@southernrailway.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Enoree River

 

Ed

 

You wouldn’t happen to have a picture of the car post wreck but prior to going to Southern?  I don’t, but would love to see it. 

I question that Budd applied the smooth roof, primarily because they would still have the tooling set up to remove the damaged portions of the original roof and replace them with fluted material.  In looking at some of the repairs done on the car by Budd, they pretty well stuck to their going practice at the time-which meant fluted roofs all the way through the Amfleet cars. Not saying it didn’t happen, but my bet is Southern did it since other Budds in the fleet received the same treatment. 

 

Kevin


On Aug 6, 2019, at 8:01 PM, Ed Mims <wemims@...> wrote:

The CofGa car 665 (formerly Fort McPherson) was wrecked and repaired by Budd. That is why it has a smooth stainless steel roof. See attachment.

 

Stainless steel does not corrode but it is not totally indestructible. Stainless steel will fatigue in service and fracture (crack). Once this begins it is irreversible. The pre-war cars had this problem with the early design of center sills. Later designs were heavier and stayed in regular service for many years. Post war cars were much sturdier and some remain in service today (example:  VIA RAIL  THE CANADIAN).

 

Ed Mims

 

From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io [mailto:main@SouthernRailway.groups.io] On Behalf Of Kevin Centers
Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2019 7:21 PM
To: main@southernrailway.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Enoree River

 

Curt

 

Budds were built with fluted roofs. Being of all stainless construction, the cars were-and in many cases still are-practically indestructible. Unfortunately they leak. Sometimes a little silicon will do the trick, but some are a little worse. Southern fixed the issue by applying smooth stainless over the flutes. SOU 665 (former CofGa 665) at Southern Appalachia Ry Museum is a good example of this. Built by Budd with a fluted roof with smooth panels applied by Southern. 

 

Kevin


On Aug 6, 2019, at 7:02 PM, Curt Fortenberry <curtfortenberry@...> wrote:


Alaska RR got several of the SR coaches (one CofG) after Amtrak took over the Crescent (all Budd built).   Roofs varied among the lot.  Some fluted roofs, some smooth (were these replacement roofs?).  Some natural metal, some black. 

Photos can be found here:  http://www.alaskarails.org/fp/passenger/passenger-roster-retired.html   Scroll down to the 5200 group.

Curt Fortenberry

<CG Fort McPherson WEM 010.jpg>

moderated Re: Enoree River

Kevin Centers
 

Ed

I’m not saying I know it all, but since I’ve been working on helping get it restored for a while, I’m at least pretty familiar with it. And it’s twin the Fort Oglethorpe. Somewhere (there’s a big word) in the SRHA archives, the car files show it, the Mitchell and Oglethorpe going to Hayne shortly after the merger. Southern did work on the cars-which if memory serves was desperately needed by that time. It wasn’t until March of 1971 that the ownership of the Central cars was transferred to Southern. Probably in an attempt to preclude Amtrak from taking possession of them since I believe Central technically joined Amtrak on April 1. So it makes sense that Southern could have done the work prior to a change on the letterboard. 

Kevin



On Aug 6, 2019, at 8:25 PM, Ed Mims <wemims@...> wrote:

Kevin,

 

I’ve been searching my files to find a photo of 665 after repairs were made but must not have one. I’m beginning to believe that you are correct in that Southern applied the smooth roof but I have always thought differently. I recall the car coming into Jacksonville in about 1965 on the Ponce de Leon with a smooth roof and with Central of Georgia still on the letter board.

 

Ed

 

 

From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io [mailto:main@SouthernRailway.groups.io] On Behalf Of Kevin Centers
Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2019 8:12 PM
To: main@southernrailway.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Enoree River

 

Ed

 

You wouldn’t happen to have a picture of the car post wreck but prior to going to Southern?  I don’t, but would love to see it. 

I question that Budd applied the smooth roof, primarily because they would still have the tooling set up to remove the damaged portions of the original roof and replace them with fluted material.  In looking at some of the repairs done on the car by Budd, they pretty well stuck to their going practice at the time-which meant fluted roofs all the way through the Amfleet cars. Not saying it didn’t happen, but my bet is Southern did it since other Budds in the fleet received the same treatment. 

 

Kevin


On Aug 6, 2019, at 8:01 PM, Ed Mims <wemims@...> wrote:

The CofGa car 665 (formerly Fort McPherson) was wrecked and repaired by Budd. That is why it has a smooth stainless steel roof. See attachment.

 

Stainless steel does not corrode but it is not totally indestructible. Stainless steel will fatigue in service and fracture (crack). Once this begins it is irreversible. The pre-war cars had this problem with the early design of center sills. Later designs were heavier and stayed in regular service for many years. Post war cars were much sturdier and some remain in service today (example:  VIA RAIL  THE CANADIAN).

 

Ed Mims

 

From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io [mailto:main@SouthernRailway.groups.io] On Behalf Of Kevin Centers
Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2019 7:21 PM
To: main@southernrailway.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Enoree River

 

Curt

 

Budds were built with fluted roofs. Being of all stainless construction, the cars were-and in many cases still are-practically indestructible. Unfortunately they leak. Sometimes a little silicon will do the trick, but some are a little worse. Southern fixed the issue by applying smooth stainless over the flutes. SOU 665 (former CofGa 665) at Southern Appalachia Ry Museum is a good example of this. Built by Budd with a fluted roof with smooth panels applied by Southern. 

 

Kevin


On Aug 6, 2019, at 7:02 PM, Curt Fortenberry <curtfortenberry@...> wrote:


Alaska RR got several of the SR coaches (one CofG) after Amtrak took over the Crescent (all Budd built).   Roofs varied among the lot.  Some fluted roofs, some smooth (were these replacement roofs?).  Some natural metal, some black. 

Photos can be found here:  http://www.alaskarails.org/fp/passenger/passenger-roster-retired.html   Scroll down to the 5200 group.

Curt Fortenberry

<CG Fort McPherson WEM 010.jpg>

moderated Re: Enoree River

Ed Mims
 

Kevin,

 

I’ve been searching my files to find a photo of 665 after repairs were made but must not have one. I’m beginning to believe that you are correct in that Southern applied the smooth roof but I have always thought differently. I recall the car coming into Jacksonville in about 1965 on the Ponce de Leon with a smooth roof and with Central of Georgia still on the letter board.

 

Ed

 

 

From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io [mailto:main@SouthernRailway.groups.io] On Behalf Of Kevin Centers
Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2019 8:12 PM
To: main@southernrailway.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Enoree River

 

Ed

 

You wouldn’t happen to have a picture of the car post wreck but prior to going to Southern?  I don’t, but would love to see it. 

I question that Budd applied the smooth roof, primarily because they would still have the tooling set up to remove the damaged portions of the original roof and replace them with fluted material.  In looking at some of the repairs done on the car by Budd, they pretty well stuck to their going practice at the time-which meant fluted roofs all the way through the Amfleet cars. Not saying it didn’t happen, but my bet is Southern did it since other Budds in the fleet received the same treatment. 

 

Kevin


On Aug 6, 2019, at 8:01 PM, Ed Mims <wemims@...> wrote:

The CofGa car 665 (formerly Fort McPherson) was wrecked and repaired by Budd. That is why it has a smooth stainless steel roof. See attachment.

 

Stainless steel does not corrode but it is not totally indestructible. Stainless steel will fatigue in service and fracture (crack). Once this begins it is irreversible. The pre-war cars had this problem with the early design of center sills. Later designs were heavier and stayed in regular service for many years. Post war cars were much sturdier and some remain in service today (example:  VIA RAIL  THE CANADIAN).

 

Ed Mims

 

From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io [mailto:main@SouthernRailway.groups.io] On Behalf Of Kevin Centers
Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2019 7:21 PM
To: main@southernrailway.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Enoree River

 

Curt

 

Budds were built with fluted roofs. Being of all stainless construction, the cars were-and in many cases still are-practically indestructible. Unfortunately they leak. Sometimes a little silicon will do the trick, but some are a little worse. Southern fixed the issue by applying smooth stainless over the flutes. SOU 665 (former CofGa 665) at Southern Appalachia Ry Museum is a good example of this. Built by Budd with a fluted roof with smooth panels applied by Southern. 

 

Kevin


On Aug 6, 2019, at 7:02 PM, Curt Fortenberry <curtfortenberry@...> wrote:


Alaska RR got several of the SR coaches (one CofG) after Amtrak took over the Crescent (all Budd built).   Roofs varied among the lot.  Some fluted roofs, some smooth (were these replacement roofs?).  Some natural metal, some black. 

Photos can be found here:  http://www.alaskarails.org/fp/passenger/passenger-roster-retired.html   Scroll down to the 5200 group.

Curt Fortenberry

<CG Fort McPherson WEM 010.jpg>

moderated Re: Enoree River

Kevin Centers
 

Ed

You wouldn’t happen to have a picture of the car post wreck but prior to going to Southern?  I don’t, but would love to see it. 
I question that Budd applied the smooth roof, primarily because they would still have the tooling set up to remove the damaged portions of the original roof and replace them with fluted material.  In looking at some of the repairs done on the car by Budd, they pretty well stuck to their going practice at the time-which meant fluted roofs all the way through the Amfleet cars. Not saying it didn’t happen, but my bet is Southern did it since other Budds in the fleet received the same treatment. 

Kevin

On Aug 6, 2019, at 8:01 PM, Ed Mims <wemims@...> wrote:

The CofGa car 665 (formerly Fort McPherson) was wrecked and repaired by Budd. That is why it has a smooth stainless steel roof. See attachment.

 

Stainless steel does not corrode but it is not totally indestructible. Stainless steel will fatigue in service and fracture (crack). Once this begins it is irreversible. The pre-war cars had this problem with the early design of center sills. Later designs were heavier and stayed in regular service for many years. Post war cars were much sturdier and some remain in service today (example:  VIA RAIL  THE CANADIAN).

 

Ed Mims

 

From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io [mailto:main@SouthernRailway.groups.io] On Behalf Of Kevin Centers
Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2019 7:21 PM
To: main@southernrailway.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Enoree River

 

Curt

 

Budds were built with fluted roofs. Being of all stainless construction, the cars were-and in many cases still are-practically indestructible. Unfortunately they leak. Sometimes a little silicon will do the trick, but some are a little worse. Southern fixed the issue by applying smooth stainless over the flutes. SOU 665 (former CofGa 665) at Southern Appalachia Ry Museum is a good example of this. Built by Budd with a fluted roof with smooth panels applied by Southern. 

 

Kevin


On Aug 6, 2019, at 7:02 PM, Curt Fortenberry <curtfortenberry@...> wrote:


Alaska RR got several of the SR coaches (one CofG) after Amtrak took over the Crescent (all Budd built).   Roofs varied among the lot.  Some fluted roofs, some smooth (were these replacement roofs?).  Some natural metal, some black. 

Photos can be found here:  http://www.alaskarails.org/fp/passenger/passenger-roster-retired.html   Scroll down to the 5200 group.

Curt Fortenberry

<CG Fort McPherson WEM 010.jpg>

moderated Re: Enoree River

Ed Mims
 

Another view of CG 665 (Fort McPherson) showing the date of the accident.

 

Ed

 

From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io [mailto:main@SouthernRailway.groups.io] On Behalf Of David Payne via Groups.Io
Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2019 7:49 PM
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Enoree River

 

 

Thanks.  That's more than I had heard/seen/read before; just assumed that the smooth roof was part of the repair.

Daivd

 

 

In a message dated 8/6/2019 7:46:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, klcenters@... writes:

 

 

Ultimately that probably led to the smooth roof. After Budd repaired the wreck damage it retained the fluted roof for a while. At some point Southern got tired of the leaks and installed a smooth roof.

The thing to remember about a Budd is that the roof was part of the structure of the car. The fluted roof allowed greater strength without the weight cost of structural beams.


On Aug 6, 2019, at 7:37 PM, David Payne via Groups.Io <davidcofga@...> wrote:

 

I thought the smooth roof on 665 came after the "roll-over" at Second Avenue in Columbus.  I don't recall the date, and I'm not going to look for it, but it could have been post-Southern acquisition and following Southern practices.  Of course, a "little" warping and twisting in a roll-over could cause a "few" leaks ...

DPayne

 

 

In a message dated 8/6/2019 7:21:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, klcenters@... writes:

 

SOU 665 (former CofGa 665) at Southern Appalachia Ry Museum is a good example of this. Built by Budd with a fluted roof with smooth panels applied by Southern.

moderated Re: Enoree River

George Eichelberger
 

To remind everyone, the August archives work session is Friday and Saturday August 16 and 17. Several of us will be there starting Thursday.

Ike


On Aug 6, 2019, at 6:16 PM, Kevin Centers <klcenters@...> wrote:

Bill

As a matter of fact SRHA does have records of some movements of the Enoree River. The car shows being inspected on 12/11/56 and 12/12/56 in Charlotte. The first day it was in The Southerner and the second day is was part of The Crescent’s consist. The car line number on 47/48 was SR41 and on 37/38 the car line was S21.  
The first inspection wasn’t bad but did note that the car made excessive squeaking noises and the center plates/trucks, coupler carrier irons and buffer diaphragm mechanisms should be greased to make the car quieter. It was also noted that the car was riding 1-1/2” low on the vestibule end and 3-1/2” low on the blind end. This caused issues with coupling the tightlock interlocking couplers as well as matching up footplates so there was no tripping hazard. 
Apparently Pullman or Southern was able to do some quick work and correct the issues. On the second day the inspector made the interesting note that “This car is now ok and rides good, it has no noises and matches up very good (footplates between cars). Get ‘em all like this one.”  
These inspection forms came from the archives in Chattanooga. I am in the process of transcribing the info from scanned forms into a spreadsheet. This kind of info is invaluable in that inspectors not only noted defects with the cars, but also the train numbers, dates, locations, and car line number. 

Kevin


On Aug 6, 2019, at 4:39 PM, Bill Schafer <bill4501@...> wrote:

It was originally assigned to the Crescent, and the car ran in that train off and on for years. It also ran on the Southerner in the 1960s, according to some consists I have seen. Does anybody know if the Enoree River operated on other Southern trains or even in Pullman charter service prior to, say, 1965?

On Aug 6, 2019, at 12:15 PM, mclain2004@... wrote:

In which passenger train was Pullman “Enoree River” mostly used?


moderated Re: Enoree River

Ed Mims
 

The CofGa car 665 (formerly Fort McPherson) was wrecked and repaired by Budd. That is why it has a smooth stainless steel roof. See attachment.

 

Stainless steel does not corrode but it is not totally indestructible. Stainless steel will fatigue in service and fracture (crack). Once this begins it is irreversible. The pre-war cars had this problem with the early design of center sills. Later designs were heavier and stayed in regular service for many years. Post war cars were much sturdier and some remain in service today (example:  VIA RAIL  THE CANADIAN).

 

Ed Mims

 

From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io [mailto:main@SouthernRailway.groups.io] On Behalf Of Kevin Centers
Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2019 7:21 PM
To: main@southernrailway.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Enoree River

 

Curt

 

Budds were built with fluted roofs. Being of all stainless construction, the cars were-and in many cases still are-practically indestructible. Unfortunately they leak. Sometimes a little silicon will do the trick, but some are a little worse. Southern fixed the issue by applying smooth stainless over the flutes. SOU 665 (former CofGa 665) at Southern Appalachia Ry Museum is a good example of this. Built by Budd with a fluted roof with smooth panels applied by Southern. 

 

Kevin


On Aug 6, 2019, at 7:02 PM, Curt Fortenberry <curtfortenberry@...> wrote:


Alaska RR got several of the SR coaches (one CofG) after Amtrak took over the Crescent (all Budd built).   Roofs varied among the lot.  Some fluted roofs, some smooth (were these replacement roofs?).  Some natural metal, some black. 

Photos can be found here:  http://www.alaskarails.org/fp/passenger/passenger-roster-retired.html   Scroll down to the 5200 group.

Curt Fortenberry

moderated Re: Enoree River

Ed Mims
 

David, you are correct. Budd applied the smooth roof prior to June, 1963.

 

Ed

 

From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io [mailto:main@SouthernRailway.groups.io] On Behalf Of David Payne via Groups.Io
Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2019 7:49 PM
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Enoree River

 

 

Thanks.  That's more than I had heard/seen/read before; just assumed that the smooth roof was part of the repair.

Daivd

 

 

In a message dated 8/6/2019 7:46:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, klcenters@... writes:

 

 

Ultimately that probably led to the smooth roof. After Budd repaired the wreck damage it retained the fluted roof for a while. At some point Southern got tired of the leaks and installed a smooth roof.

The thing to remember about a Budd is that the roof was part of the structure of the car. The fluted roof allowed greater strength without the weight cost of structural beams.


On Aug 6, 2019, at 7:37 PM, David Payne via Groups.Io <davidcofga@...> wrote:

 

I thought the smooth roof on 665 came after the "roll-over" at Second Avenue in Columbus.  I don't recall the date, and I'm not going to look for it, but it could have been post-Southern acquisition and following Southern practices.  Of course, a "little" warping and twisting in a roll-over could cause a "few" leaks ...

DPayne

 

 

In a message dated 8/6/2019 7:21:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, klcenters@... writes:

 

SOU 665 (former CofGa 665) at Southern Appalachia Ry Museum is a good example of this. Built by Budd with a fluted roof with smooth panels applied by Southern.

moderated Re: Enoree River

David Payne
 


Thanks.  That's more than I had heard/seen/read before; just assumed that the smooth roof was part of the repair.
Daivd


In a message dated 8/6/2019 7:46:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, klcenters@... writes:


Ultimately that probably led to the smooth roof. After Budd repaired the wreck damage it retained the fluted roof for a while. At some point Southern got tired of the leaks and installed a smooth roof.
The thing to remember about a Budd is that the roof was part of the structure of the car. The fluted roof allowed greater strength without the weight cost of structural beams.

On Aug 6, 2019, at 7:37 PM, David Payne via Groups.Io <davidcofga@...> wrote:


I thought the smooth roof on 665 came after the "roll-over" at Second Avenue in Columbus.  I don't recall the date, and I'm not going to look for it, but it could have been post-Southern acquisition and following Southern practices.  Of course, a "little" warping and twisting in a roll-over could cause a "few" leaks ...
DPayne


In a message dated 8/6/2019 7:21:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, klcenters@... writes:

SOU 665 (former CofGa 665) at Southern Appalachia Ry Museum is a good example of this. Built by Budd with a fluted roof with smooth panels applied by Southern.

moderated Re: Enoree River

Kevin Centers
 

Ultimately that probably led to the smooth roof. After Budd repaired the wreck damage it retained the fluted roof for a while. At some point Southern got tired of the leaks and installed a smooth roof. 
The thing to remember about a Budd is that the roof was part of the structure of the car. The fluted roof allowed greater strength without the weight cost of structural beams. 

On Aug 6, 2019, at 7:37 PM, David Payne via Groups.Io <davidcofga@...> wrote:


I thought the smooth roof on 665 came after the "roll-over" at Second Avenue in Columbus.  I don't recall the date, and I'm not going to look for it, but it could have been post-Southern acquisition and following Southern practices.  Of course, a "little" warping and twisting in a roll-over could cause a "few" leaks ...
DPayne


In a message dated 8/6/2019 7:21:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, klcenters@... writes:

SOU 665 (former CofGa 665) at Southern Appalachia Ry Museum is a good example of this. Built by Budd with a fluted roof with smooth panels applied by Southern.

moderated Re: Enoree River

David Payne
 


I thought the smooth roof on 665 came after the "roll-over" at Second Avenue in Columbus.  I don't recall the date, and I'm not going to look for it, but it could have been post-Southern acquisition and following Southern practices.  Of course, a "little" warping and twisting in a roll-over could cause a "few" leaks ...
DPayne


In a message dated 8/6/2019 7:21:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, klcenters@... writes:

SOU 665 (former CofGa 665) at Southern Appalachia Ry Museum is a good example of this. Built by Budd with a fluted roof with smooth panels applied by Southern.

moderated Re: Enoree River

Kevin Centers
 

Curt

Budds were built with fluted roofs. Being of all stainless construction, the cars were-and in many cases still are-practically indestructible. Unfortunately they leak. Sometimes a little silicon will do the trick, but some are a little worse. Southern fixed the issue by applying smooth stainless over the flutes. SOU 665 (former CofGa 665) at Southern Appalachia Ry Museum is a good example of this. Built by Budd with a fluted roof with smooth panels applied by Southern. 

Kevin

On Aug 6, 2019, at 7:02 PM, Curt Fortenberry <curtfortenberry@...> wrote:


Alaska RR got several of the SR coaches (one CofG) after Amtrak took over the Crescent (all Budd built).   Roofs varied among the lot.  Some fluted roofs, some smooth (were these replacement roofs?).  Some natural metal, some black. 

Photos can be found here:  http://www.alaskarails.org/fp/passenger/passenger-roster-retired.html   Scroll down to the 5200 group.

Curt Fortenberry