Date   
moderated Re: Need scan of Murphy Branch timetable page

Jim King
 

As more pieces come together, it's interesting to note that the July 1948 t/t from Mike Roderick lists Bryson as having a coal station but the ICC valuation sheet above  shows it retired in 1945 along with the sand house and turntable.  I wish there was a milepost listed for the turntable to confirm or deny suspicion that it was located where wye was installed.  MP 64.3 (coaling station location) is 0.3 mile from "downtown" (station) and, when built in the teens (?) would have been open terrain.  This installation was likely of similar construction as the Balsam ramp, meaning Bryson's ramp (being MUCH bigger) required a long run to get up the ramp.  Not something that would fit closer to town, IMO.  Good grief, even MORE questions ... but we're getting closer to "an answer".
--
Jim King
www.smokymountainmodelworks.com

moderated Re: 1948 tt ... some answers, more questions

Jim King
 

Thanks Carl and others.
--
Jim King
www.smokymountainmodelworks.com

moderated Re: Need scan of Murphy Branch timetable page

Jim King
 

Thanks, Ike.  Now this really opens up a can of worms.  Turntables at Addie, Bryson and Epps Springs (about 5 miles west of Bryson)?  I suspect the first 2 were replaced with wyes about in the same location.  According to "legend" and confirmed by the 1948 t/t, light 2-8-2s (4500-class, most likely) were allowed to Addie, which might explain why the Addie turntable (too short) was replaced with a wye.  However, the 1945 retirement date of Bryson's table seems strange.  Only 2-8-0s and 4-6-2s (maybe 4-6-0s) were allowed there so if a turntable that was in-service in 1920 it would have handled everything still operating in 1945.  Maybe it just worn out?  Epps Springs would have been underwater by 1948 as a result of the Fontana Dam track relocation.  Balsam's coaling station retirement in 1949 seems to indicate that steam was gone from the branch by then.  Anyway to confirm that?

Another eye-opener is the multitude of "Retired 1951" dates related to water tanks and, especially, 1946 for Canton's water tank.  August 1952 was that last active steam in Asheville but, it appears, the Branch has already dieselized.  The 1946 Canton date is confusing because there was only 1 tank that I know of (west side of Pigeon River) and steam was still running in 1946.  Could "retired" mean "replacement"?  There was a water pipe of some sort for the yard engine across from the station.

The Bryson coaling station was HUGE compared to the Balsam installation.  Now where was it?  This description rules out the current coal trestle as doing double-duty ... it was likely only for the retail coal dealer.  According to the ICC sheets, the water tank was at MP 64.1 and is shown on the valuation map.  MP 64.0 is between the main road crossing at that station and the coal trestle.  MP 64.3, where the coaling station is noted on the ICC blueprint, would be about where  the 2 tracks become 1 west of town.  There is a stub siding shown on the val map with a "tool house" notation.  Interesting.

Good stuff, thanks again, Ike.
--
Jim King
www.smokymountainmodelworks.com

moderated Re: 1948 tt ... some answers, more questions

Carl Ardrey
 

image1.jpeg


On Jun 10, 2019, at 2:57 PM, Ron Stafford via Groups.Io <wag2200@...> wrote:

P was the designation used for Telephone on the roads that I'm familiar with.

Ron Stafford


On 6/10/2019 3:05 PM, Robert Hanson via Groups.Io wrote:
P = Passing track
D = Daytime train order office
N = Day and Night time train order office.

These are near-universal abbreviations.

Bob Hanson
Loganville, GA


-----Original Message-----
From: Jim King <jimking3@...>
To: main <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io>
Sent: Mon, Jun 10, 2019 2:46 pm
Subject: [SouthernRailway] 1948 tt ... some answers, more questions

Thanks to Mike Roderick, I have a 1948 and 1964 t/t to go with my 1970 and more recent copies. ??I???m a little fuzzy on the code letters for each town???s name.?? Can???t find a key to them anywhere in the 16 pages.?? From memory, I know that W=water, Y=wye, C=coal and X=agent/operator.?? There are also P, D and N.?? What do these mean??? I???ve attached pages 8 and 9.?? The ???N??? is next to Asheville and does not appear on the branch.?? The ???P??? is at Murphy Jct only.?? ???D??? appears in many towns.
??
For years, I???ve suspected that coal was available in Bryson because the distance between Nantahala and Balsam was too great and there was too much activity.?? That???s what started this thread yesterday.?? The tt seems to confirm my suspicion (???C??? is to the right of the Bryson name) and that a turn was based out of Bryson (trains 66/67).?? This turn was shortened to Sylva-Addie in the 60s until cancelled around 1972.?? A Steve Patterson shot on RailPictures.net shows a 1966-ish Geep-powered local between Addie and Sylva with a long train of mostly boxcars.?? There was a LOT of industry in that stretch in post-War years, primarily Mead Paper, furniture and lumber-related.?? There was no water available between Bryson and Addie.?? Question now is where was coal loaded in Bryson??? Did the coal trestle, thought to be ???only??? for the retail dealer, serve double duty??? It???s close to the track and parallel but it seems too low for shoveling.?? It was also close to water, likely supplied by the town.
??
Canton???s coal supply was for the yard engine only, usually 599.?? There was a small bin or shed next to the ???sand house??? and water standpipe located on the bank across from the station and below the bridge, according to the engineer I rode with.?? The sand house was still there when I started visiting in 1977 and the floor was covered in sand, likely from spillage over the years.?? There was no coal available for mainline trains, only water, located across the river (most tank footers still remain).
??
In addition to the Goose (trains 68/69), there was a turn that ran from Asheville to Balsam (tr 70/71, 6 days a week).?? Nothing went ???over the mountain??? except the Goose because it needed 2 engines to get up the mountain.?? I suspect the Bryson-Addie turn was a single 2-8-0 and based in Bryson where water, coal and wye were available.?? This was the only activity on the line on Sunday, from what I can deduce.?? Was the Balsam turn also a single 2-8-0 (underpowered to go to Addie and return with whatever the Bryson turn has set off for it)??? If so, did the Goose (tr 69) bring 71???s cars down the mountain to Addie and back up the mountain from Addie as Tr 68??? Forwarding cars to Balsam and leaving them makes no sense unless the thru train was forwarding them.?? It???s also possible Tr 71 ran to Balsam to service the coaling ramp and turn on the wye since there was nowhere to turn around once it passed Canton.?? There was no customer base between Hazelwood and Balsam.
??
I???m also ???assuming??? this tt was issued in July because the Murphy Branch passenger train had just been cancelled (only freights are listed on pages 8 and 9).
??
As usual, closely reading the tt ???seems??? to answer a few questions while generating even more.?? Such is the process called ???research???.
??
Jim King
??

--
Jim King
www.smokymountainmodelworks.com

moderated Re: 1948 tt ... some answers, more questions

Ron Stafford
 

P was the designation used for Telephone on the roads that I'm familiar with.

Ron Stafford


On 6/10/2019 3:05 PM, Robert Hanson via Groups.Io wrote:
P = Passing track
D = Daytime train order office
N = Day and Night time train order office.

These are near-universal abbreviations.

Bob Hanson
Loganville, GA


-----Original Message-----
From: Jim King <jimking3@...>
To: main <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io>
Sent: Mon, Jun 10, 2019 2:46 pm
Subject: [SouthernRailway] 1948 tt ... some answers, more questions

Thanks to Mike Roderick, I have a 1948 and 1964 t/t to go with my 1970 and more recent copies. ??I???m a little fuzzy on the code letters for each town???s name.?? Can???t find a key to them anywhere in the 16 pages.?? From memory, I know that W=water, Y=wye, C=coal and X=agent/operator.?? There are also P, D and N.?? What do these mean??? I???ve attached pages 8 and 9.?? The ???N??? is next to Asheville and does not appear on the branch.?? The ???P??? is at Murphy Jct only.?? ???D??? appears in many towns.
??
For years, I???ve suspected that coal was available in Bryson because the distance between Nantahala and Balsam was too great and there was too much activity.?? That???s what started this thread yesterday.?? The tt seems to confirm my suspicion (???C??? is to the right of the Bryson name) and that a turn was based out of Bryson (trains 66/67).?? This turn was shortened to Sylva-Addie in the 60s until cancelled around 1972.?? A Steve Patterson shot on RailPictures.net shows a 1966-ish Geep-powered local between Addie and Sylva with a long train of mostly boxcars.?? There was a LOT of industry in that stretch in post-War years, primarily Mead Paper, furniture and lumber-related.?? There was no water available between Bryson and Addie.?? Question now is where was coal loaded in Bryson??? Did the coal trestle, thought to be ???only??? for the retail dealer, serve double duty??? It???s close to the track and parallel but it seems too low for shoveling.?? It was also close to water, likely supplied by the town.
??
Canton???s coal supply was for the yard engine only, usually 599.?? There was a small bin or shed next to the ???sand house??? and water standpipe located on the bank across from the station and below the bridge, according to the engineer I rode with.?? The sand house was still there when I started visiting in 1977 and the floor was covered in sand, likely from spillage over the years.?? There was no coal available for mainline trains, only water, located across the river (most tank footers still remain).
??
In addition to the Goose (trains 68/69), there was a turn that ran from Asheville to Balsam (tr 70/71, 6 days a week).?? Nothing went ???over the mountain??? except the Goose because it needed 2 engines to get up the mountain.?? I suspect the Bryson-Addie turn was a single 2-8-0 and based in Bryson where water, coal and wye were available.?? This was the only activity on the line on Sunday, from what I can deduce.?? Was the Balsam turn also a single 2-8-0 (underpowered to go to Addie and return with whatever the Bryson turn has set off for it)??? If so, did the Goose (tr 69) bring 71???s cars down the mountain to Addie and back up the mountain from Addie as Tr 68??? Forwarding cars to Balsam and leaving them makes no sense unless the thru train was forwarding them.?? It???s also possible Tr 71 ran to Balsam to service the coaling ramp and turn on the wye since there was nowhere to turn around once it passed Canton.?? There was no customer base between Hazelwood and Balsam.
??
I???m also ???assuming??? this tt was issued in July because the Murphy Branch passenger train had just been cancelled (only freights are listed on pages 8 and 9).
??
As usual, closely reading the tt ???seems??? to answer a few questions while generating even more.?? Such is the process called ???research???.
??
Jim King
??

--
Jim King
www.smokymountainmodelworks.com

moderated Re: 1948 tt ... some answers, more questions

Robert Hanson
 

P = Passing track
D = Daytime train order office
N = Day and Night time train order office.

These are near-universal abbreviations.

Bob Hanson
Loganville, GA


-----Original Message-----
From: Jim King <jimking3@...>
To: main <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io>
Sent: Mon, Jun 10, 2019 2:46 pm
Subject: [SouthernRailway] 1948 tt ... some answers, more questions

Thanks to Mike Roderick, I have a 1948 and 1964 t/t to go with my 1970 and more recent copies.  I’m a little fuzzy on the code letters for each town’s name.  Can’t find a key to them anywhere in the 16 pages.  From memory, I know that W=water, Y=wye, C=coal and X=agent/operator.  There are also P, D and N.  What do these mean?  I’ve attached pages 8 and 9.  The “N” is next to Asheville and does not appear on the branch.  The “P” is at Murphy Jct only.  “D” appears in many towns.
 
For years, I’ve suspected that coal was available in Bryson because the distance between Nantahala and Balsam was too great and there was too much activity.  That’s what started this thread yesterday.  The tt seems to confirm my suspicion (“C” is to the right of the Bryson name) and that a turn was based out of Bryson (trains 66/67).  This turn was shortened to Sylva-Addie in the 60s until cancelled around 1972.  A Steve Patterson shot on RailPictures.net shows a 1966-ish Geep-powered local between Addie and Sylva with a long train of mostly boxcars.  There was a LOT of industry in that stretch in post-War years, primarily Mead Paper, furniture and lumber-related.  There was no water available between Bryson and Addie.  Question now is where was coal loaded in Bryson?  Did the coal trestle, thought to be “only” for the retail dealer, serve double duty?  It’s close to the track and parallel but it seems too low for shoveling.  It was also close to water, likely supplied by the town.
 
Canton’s coal supply was for the yard engine only, usually 599.  There was a small bin or shed next to the “sand house” and water standpipe located on the bank across from the station and below the bridge, according to the engineer I rode with.  The sand house was still there when I started visiting in 1977 and the floor was covered in sand, likely from spillage over the years.  There was no coal available for mainline trains, only water, located across the river (most tank footers still remain).
 
In addition to the Goose (trains 68/69), there was a turn that ran from Asheville to Balsam (tr 70/71, 6 days a week).  Nothing went “over the mountain” except the Goose because it needed 2 engines to get up the mountain.  I suspect the Bryson-Addie turn was a single 2-8-0 and based in Bryson where water, coal and wye were available.  This was the only activity on the line on Sunday, from what I can deduce.  Was the Balsam turn also a single 2-8-0 (underpowered to go to Addie and return with whatever the Bryson turn has set off for it)?  If so, did the Goose (tr 69) bring 71’s cars down the mountain to Addie and back up the mountain from Addie as Tr 68?  Forwarding cars to Balsam and leaving them makes no sense unless the thru train was forwarding them.  It’s also possible Tr 71 ran to Balsam to service the coaling ramp and turn on the wye since there was nowhere to turn around once it passed Canton.  There was no customer base between Hazelwood and Balsam.
 
I’m also “assuming” this tt was issued in July because the Murphy Branch passenger train had just been cancelled (only freights are listed on pages 8 and 9).
 
As usual, closely reading the tt “seems” to answer a few questions while generating even more.  Such is the process called “research”.
 
Jim King
 

moderated Re: 1948 tt ... some answers, more questions

David Payne
 


N - Continuous train order office

D - Day (time) train order office

P - I'd have to look ... maybe Southern's "code" for "Part-time" ... i.e. two shifts, but not 24 hours

DPayne


In a message dated 6/10/2019 2:46:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, jimking3@... writes:

There are also P, D and N.  What do these mean?  I’ve attached pages 8 and 9.  The “N” is next to Asheville and does not appear on the branch.  The “P” is at Murphy Jct only.  “D” appears in many towns.

moderated 1948 tt ... some answers, more questions

Jim King
 

Thanks to Mike Roderick, I have a 1948 and 1964 t/t to go with my 1970 and more recent copies.  I’m a little fuzzy on the code letters for each town’s name.  Can’t find a key to them anywhere in the 16 pages.  From memory, I know that W=water, Y=wye, C=coal and X=agent/operator.  There are also P, D and N.  What do these mean?  I’ve attached pages 8 and 9.  The “N” is next to Asheville and does not appear on the branch.  The “P” is at Murphy Jct only.  “D” appears in many towns.

 

For years, I’ve suspected that coal was available in Bryson because the distance between Nantahala and Balsam was too great and there was too much activity.  That’s what started this thread yesterday.  The tt seems to confirm my suspicion (“C” is to the right of the Bryson name) and that a turn was based out of Bryson (trains 66/67).  This turn was shortened to Sylva-Addie in the 60s until cancelled around 1972.  A Steve Patterson shot on RailPictures.net shows a 1966-ish Geep-powered local between Addie and Sylva with a long train of mostly boxcars.  There was a LOT of industry in that stretch in post-War years, primarily Mead Paper, furniture and lumber-related.  There was no water available between Bryson and Addie.  Question now is where was coal loaded in Bryson?  Did the coal trestle, thought to be “only” for the retail dealer, serve double duty?  It’s close to the track and parallel but it seems too low for shoveling.  It was also close to water, likely supplied by the town.

 

Canton’s coal supply was for the yard engine only, usually 599.  There was a small bin or shed next to the “sand house” and water standpipe located on the bank across from the station and below the bridge, according to the engineer I rode with.  The sand house was still there when I started visiting in 1977 and the floor was covered in sand, likely from spillage over the years.  There was no coal available for mainline trains, only water, located across the river (most tank footers still remain).

 

In addition to the Goose (trains 68/69), there was a turn that ran from Asheville to Balsam (tr 70/71, 6 days a week).  Nothing went “over the mountain” except the Goose because it needed 2 engines to get up the mountain.  I suspect the Bryson-Addie turn was a single 2-8-0 and based in Bryson where water, coal and wye were available.  This was the only activity on the line on Sunday, from what I can deduce.  Was the Balsam turn also a single 2-8-0 (underpowered to go to Addie and return with whatever the Bryson turn has set off for it)?  If so, did the Goose (tr 69) bring 71’s cars down the mountain to Addie and back up the mountain from Addie as Tr 68?  Forwarding cars to Balsam and leaving them makes no sense unless the thru train was forwarding them.  It’s also possible Tr 71 ran to Balsam to service the coaling ramp and turn on the wye since there was nowhere to turn around once it passed Canton.  There was no customer base between Hazelwood and Balsam.

 

I’m also “assuming” this tt was issued in July because the Murphy Branch passenger train had just been cancelled (only freights are listed on pages 8 and 9).

 

As usual, closely reading the tt “seems” to answer a few questions while generating even more.  Such is the process called “research”.

 

Jim King

www.smokymountainmodelworks.com

 


--
Jim King
www.smokymountainmodelworks.com

moderated What did Trains 60 and 61 do - 1970's?

Tim
 

I met Matt Bumbarner Saturday at the train show in Gastonia (and bought a signed C&NW book!). I meant to stop by and ask his this, but didn't manage to get back there.

60 and 61 were the local trains on Southern's S-line. 60 ran from Morganton to Spencer, and 61 the other way, six days a week. My model railroad layout (under construction) is set in 1974, a couple of years after the Southern built Oyama Yard and tore down the old C&NW shops in Hickory. 

My questions about these trains are as follows:
Did the crews run all the say through, or did they swap when the trains met, with the Morganton crew going back to Morganton and the Spencer crew returning to Spencer? What about the engines?

Did these trains work the industries in the Hickory area, of was that handled by a local switcher coming out of Oyama yard?

Did these trains drop and pick up cars at Oyama?

What did these trains do at Statesville? I'm pretty sure there was a local switcher there in 1974.

Finally, what questions am I not asking that I should be? :)

Thanks,
Tim Rumph
Lancaster, SC

moderated Re: Need scan of Murphy Branch timetable page

Michael Roderick
 

Jim:

I have the following Timetables from the Asheville area which has the Murphy Branch listed one is a 1948, 1960 time tables. Also if you could send me a copy of the ICC VAL Map of Bryson City I would surely appreciate it as I am going to be modeling the Murphy Branch and I am currently in the research faze of what I want to do. You may also want to reach out to Gordon on the murphy branch group also he has a lot of information to and would also probably like a copy of the Bryson Val map to.

Mike


From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io> on behalf of George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...>
Sent: Sunday, June 9, 2019 17:21
To: main@southernrailway.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Need scan of Murphy Branch timetable page
 
Jim:

Here are the two ICC summary pages for Accounts 18 (Water Stations) and 19 (Fuel Stations) for NC Val Section 53, the Murphy Branch. There appears to have been coaling facilities only at Balsam (MP 34.9) and Bryson (MP 64.3) as early as August 12, 1932.

All/most of the summaries are in the SRHA archives as well as the bi-annual submissions up to the 1960s.

Ike

PS to everyone. I’ll need to start deleting some of our attachments fairly soon.


On Jun 9, 2019, at 3:13 PM, Jim King <jimking3@...> wrote:

I’m trying to locate water tanks and coaling spots on the Murphy Branch between Addie and Bryson City.  If anyone can send me a scan of the 1-page timetable page for the Murphy Branch for any year in the 40s up to 1952 (end of steam here), I’d greatly appreciate it.  
 
In the 1960s to circa 1972, there was a Geep-powered local based in Sylva that ran between Sylva and Addie to switch the various industries, primarily Mead Paper.  If this local existed in steam days, there was likely a water tank and coaling facility, possibly a conveyor like at Nantahala, for this 2-8-0.  
 
The ICC Val map for Bryson shows a water tank directly across from the wye and a coal trestle to the east (which is still there) but I’m not sure if this was for a retail coal dealer or for Southern engines (or both).  Was there a built up platform at this location where coal was shoveled into tenders?  
 
Was there a coal conveyor or similar on the east end of Addie? Nothing shows on the Val map except the coal trestle.  There are remnants of a long stub siding visible in folks’ backyards made of very light rail and “ballast” appears to be coal mixed with cinders.  It’s angled away from the track but could have been the sight of a conveyor and the “ballast” that remains today is actually spilled coal from hoppers.  This would have been near the station and at the base of the climb to Balsam.  Addie’s water tank was east of the station around the curve (ICC Val map) from the station but there is no mention of a coal trestle.
 
There was a coal dealer called Sylva Coal & Lumber near the Sylva station (the trestle’s concrete bents still stand) but the trestle was angled away from the track.  Ironically, there is no mention or outline of the Sylva depot which stood on the opposite side of the track slightly westward toward Dillsboro.
 
Jim King
 

moderated Re: Need scan of Murphy Branch timetable page

George Eichelberger
 

Jim:

Here are the two ICC summary pages for Accounts 18 (Water Stations) and 19 (Fuel Stations) for NC Val Section 53, the Murphy Branch. There appears to have been coaling facilities only at Balsam (MP 34.9) and Bryson (MP 64.3) as early as August 12, 1932.

All/most of the summaries are in the SRHA archives as well as the bi-annual submissions up to the 1960s.

Ike

PS to everyone. I’ll need to start deleting some of our attachments fairly soon.


On Jun 9, 2019, at 3:13 PM, Jim King <jimking3@...> wrote:

I’m trying to locate water tanks and coaling spots on the Murphy Branch between Addie and Bryson City.  If anyone can send me a scan of the 1-page timetable page for the Murphy Branch for any year in the 40s up to 1952 (end of steam here), I’d greatly appreciate it.  
 
In the 1960s to circa 1972, there was a Geep-powered local based in Sylva that ran between Sylva and Addie to switch the various industries, primarily Mead Paper.  If this local existed in steam days, there was likely a water tank and coaling facility, possibly a conveyor like at Nantahala, for this 2-8-0.  
 
The ICC Val map for Bryson shows a water tank directly across from the wye and a coal trestle to the east (which is still there) but I’m not sure if this was for a retail coal dealer or for Southern engines (or both).  Was there a built up platform at this location where coal was shoveled into tenders?  
 
Was there a coal conveyor or similar on the east end of Addie? Nothing shows on the Val map except the coal trestle.  There are remnants of a long stub siding visible in folks’ backyards made of very light rail and “ballast” appears to be coal mixed with cinders.  It’s angled away from the track but could have been the sight of a conveyor and the “ballast” that remains today is actually spilled coal from hoppers.  This would have been near the station and at the base of the climb to Balsam.  Addie’s water tank was east of the station around the curve (ICC Val map) from the station but there is no mention of a coal trestle.
 
There was a coal dealer called Sylva Coal & Lumber near the Sylva station (the trestle’s concrete bents still stand) but the trestle was angled away from the track.  Ironically, there is no mention or outline of the Sylva depot which stood on the opposite side of the track slightly westward toward Dillsboro.
 
Jim King
 

moderated Need scan of Murphy Branch timetable page

Jim King
 

I’m trying to locate water tanks and coaling spots on the Murphy Branch between Addie and Bryson City.  If anyone can send me a scan of the 1-page timetable page for the Murphy Branch for any year in the 40s up to 1952 (end of steam here), I’d greatly appreciate it. 

 

In the 1960s to circa 1972, there was a Geep-powered local based in Sylva that ran between Sylva and Addie to switch the various industries, primarily Mead Paper.  If this local existed in steam days, there was likely a water tank and coaling facility, possibly a conveyor like at Nantahala, for this 2-8-0. 

 

The ICC Val map for Bryson shows a water tank directly across from the wye and a coal trestle to the east (which is still there) but I’m not sure if this was for a retail coal dealer or for Southern engines (or both).  Was there a built up platform at this location where coal was shoveled into tenders? 

 

Was there a coal conveyor or similar on the east end of Addie? Nothing shows on the Val map except the coal trestle.  There are remnants of a long stub siding visible in folks’ backyards made of very light rail and “ballast” appears to be coal mixed with cinders.  It’s angled away from the track but could have been the sight of a conveyor and the “ballast” that remains today is actually spilled coal from hoppers.  This would have been near the station and at the base of the climb to Balsam.  Addie’s water tank was east of the station around the curve (ICC Val map) from the station but there is no mention of a coal trestle.

 

There was a coal dealer called Sylva Coal & Lumber near the Sylva station (the trestle’s concrete bents still stand) but the trestle was angled away from the track.  Ironically, there is no mention or outline of the Sylva depot which stood on the opposite side of the track slightly westward toward Dillsboro.

 

Jim King

www.smokymountainmodelworks.com

 


--
Jim King
www.smokymountainmodelworks.com

moderated Re: Gordonsville, Virginia

George Eichelberger
 

Most wood depots were built on pilings with wooden framework. In addition to being easier and faster to build, land prep was simpler. Another benefit of that construction method, many were sold, sometimes cut into sections to be moved off railroad property. Typical price was around $100.

Brick buildings are another completely different construction style, many survive to this day. In some cases, the brick structures were built because an earlier frame building burned. In a few instances, the entire business district of a town burned and an ordinance was passed that required brick construction. For “important” towns, it was not uncommon for the original wood depot to be converted to a freight house and replaced by a brick version.

Note that none of the wood depot plans include “indoor plumbing”. The Southern had “standard” designs for one, two and four “seat” (?) versions. No documentation has been found that provides a formula for which was to be built at a particular location. There is at least one photo in the SRHA archives that shows the privy directly in front of the depot but across the track…..an unusual excuse for missing a train.

Ike

On Jun 9, 2019, at 9:31 AM, Cohen Bob via Groups.Io <orl96782@...> wrote:

All:

Absolutely correct of various types of a basically same depot for expected revenue. Then you also had to add in the land setup. gradient/s, etc. to the mix but I doubt there would have been too much differences since stations were mostly constructed on flat lands or flattened lands for a more uniform way of things.

Neat stuff.

Bob

moderated SRHA Archives Building Dedication

George Eichelberger
 

The attached photo was taken early last Sunday morning, after Saturday's dedication of the new SRHA Archives building. TVRM employees did a superb job getting the building and grounds ready.

Friday, the dedication on Saturday and Sunday were well attended by attendees to the SRHA and NMRA SER conventions. For most, it was their first visit.

The schedule for monthly work sessions, usually the third Friday and Saturday, is on the SRHA home page at www.srha.net. There are multiple photo and document projects underway and that need to be organized and started. Donations toward the building, monthly expenses or archives materials are welcome.

Ike

moderated Re: Gordonsville, Virginia

Cohen Bob
 

All:

Absolutely correct of various types of a basically same depot for expected revenue. Then you also had to add in the land setup. gradient/s, etc. to the mix but I doubt there would have been too much differences since stations were mostly constructed on flat lands or flattened lands for a more uniform way of things.

Neat stuff.

Bob

moderated Re: Gordonsville, Virginia

A&Y Dave in MD
 

Ike,

As you point out (and the image I sent previously confirms) there are "Types" designated by ICC valuation engineers (from reading the notes I photographed during my visits to NARA in 2000-2002 the types were shorthand for the valuation teams and probably do not reflect railroad categories).  If you dig deep enough into the notebooks, you can find pencil sketches for a Type and then each additional depot (at least for the Val 27 and A & B branch line supplements) was documented by type and any variations (especially with respect to footprint and foundation materials which often varied by setting).

I am planning to go back with a new book scanner and grab better quality images of those notebooks for Section 27 and grab ALL the pages of all the annual reports, not just key pages from a report every 5 years, as I did during the first visits.

If you have anything on Val section 27 that you can share with me, I'd appreciate it.  I want to write a book on the A&Y and I'm getting closer to realizing that dream.

Dave

Saturday, June 8, 2019, 11:09:27 AM, you wrote:


Another “unknown” appears in the ICC valuation descriptions. Depots are described as “Type 1”, "Type 2”, etc. with no explanation of what the types indicate; construction, brick or wood, roof types, etc.

Not a huge number of drawings but still much that needs to be researched!

Ike




--
David Bott

Sent from David Bott's desktop PC

moderated Re: Gordonsville, Virginia

A&Y Dave in MD
 

Bob,

For the A&Y at least, there were several "standard" designs.  Some from the CF&YV, some from the Southern.  The ICC engineer's drawing notebook indicated when a depot was similar to another, often skipping the drawing and referring back to another depot drawing.  See the Walnut Cove page excerpt I attached where it refers to Comb. Sta. Type #3.   Belews Creek, the original Mt. Airy station (then the freight depot after the granite version was constructed) and quite a few others were type #3.  So that reduces the count considerably.



There are still a lot of drawings and files to cover all the types, and it is quite the monumental task, but maybe a bit smaller than you suggest.

Dave

Saturday, June 8, 2019, 9:57:33 AM, you wrote:


Ike , Bill and all others:

Thanks for sharing these images and maps. Yes, a station project would be neat to do and have. Geez, how many thousands of drawings and images would such a monumental task take to do and what percentage of those which once existed do you/the archives still have?

From my Washington & Danville division knowledge, I know that just Washington division alone must have had about 150 depots in total, multiply times how many different drawings per depot, then multiply that again by how many divisions of all the various sizes. Washington must have maybe a thousand images give or take a few. Danville because it encompassed a larger region was more still.

That adds up to how many tens of thousands of files.

Okay, journey of thousand miles begins with single step but Wow and double wow!

Bob



--
David Bott

Sent from David Bott's desktop PC

moderated Re: Gordonsville, Virginia

George Eichelberger
 

Bob:

Re: Depot Drawings…..

The number of drawings will not be nearly as high as we might think. There are many examples where a drawing was simply reused, sometime the original name is simply scratched out. Other times, I suspect there was no drawing at all.

The Southern had a formula for depot and combination depot designs that was based on the expected revenue from both white and “colored” passengers and express. The revenue from each resulted in the number of square feet of each to be built. Expansions used the same formula. (This applies only to depots on the Southern proper, no data has been found on how the CNO&TP, AGS, etc. buildings were designed.)

The materials for a depot were loaded into a box car and sent to the site to be built by local B&B forces. The Bill of Materials included enough framing lumber, roofing material, doors and windows, to build the square footage of each part indicated by the formula. If the design was the same as another depot, that drawing was used as the reference. Different drawings usually show different designs even if the changes were minor.

Even though the Southern did not have a series of “standard” depot designs, most wood building designs were modular. Note the attached partial drawing for Hurt, VA. Both the passenger and freight sections show vertical posts where the roof overhang brackets are mounted. The two leftmost windows on the track side of the building are the white waiting room. The posts are on 8 ft centers giving a 16’ wide waiting room. If the formula yielded a 24 foot wide waiting room, the B&B forces would know the materials needed to build the larger size.

Of course, this is a simple example and one that changed over the years so many variations are apparent in photos.

Another “unknown” appears in the ICC valuation descriptions. Depots are described as “Type 1”, "Type 2”, etc. with no explanation of what the types indicate; construction, brick or wood, roof types, etc.

Not a huge number of drawings but still much that needs to be researched!

Ike 



On Jun 8, 2019, at 9:57 AM, Cohen Bob via Groups.Io <orl96782@...> wrote:

Ike , Bill and all others:

Thanks for sharing these images and maps. Yes, a station project would be neat to do and have. Geez, how many thousands of drawings and images would such a monumental task take to do and what percentage of those which once existed do you/the archives still have?

From my Washington & Danville division knowledge, I know that just Washington division alone must have had about 150 depots in total, multiply times how many different drawings per depot, then multiply that again by how many divisions of all the various sizes. Washington must have maybe a thousand images give or take a few. Danville because it encompassed a larger region was more still.

That adds up to how many tens of thousands of files.

Okay, journey of thousand miles begins with single step but Wow and double wow!

Bob

moderated Re: Gordonsville, Virginia

Cohen Bob
 

Ike , Bill and all others:

Thanks for sharing these images and maps. Yes, a station project would be neat to do and have. Geez, how many thousands of drawings and images would such a monumental task take to do and what percentage of those which once existed do you/the archives still have?

From my Washington & Danville division knowledge, I know that just Washington division alone must have had about 150 depots in total, multiply times how many different drawings per depot, then multiply that again by how many divisions of all the various sizes. Washington must have maybe a thousand images give or take a few. Danville because it encompassed a larger region was more still.

That adds up to how many tens of thousands of files.

Okay, journey of thousand miles begins with single step but Wow and double wow!

Bob

moderated Re: Gordonsville, Virginia--- Montpelier Station, VA

milepost 131 <mp131.ghandrews@...>
 

When Montpelier Foundation was getting ready to restore the depot at Montpelier Station VA... a group from UVA Architectural School (as I recall)  got involved and did complete drawings... These drawings and a write-up were in an SRHS newsletter or was that SRHA? It was very informative.

In addition a mass spectrometer study was made of paint samples -- Maybe Mr. Dupont didn't like "green" below the rail but last time I was up that way some non RR building were all the dark green. I have a PDF of the mass spec somewhere.

Montpelier depot was one of my first N scale scratch builds... before UVA study so I took my two year old on  his first "research" trip. He'll soon be 40!!!  He's improved over time and I'd like to think my Southern modeling attempts have too...

If SRHA has the SRHS newsletter article maybe SRHA could re-publish for the newer folks.

BTW, I have a friend who dismantled and still has in storage the Somerset, VA depot... he was going to rebuild/restore/re-purpose  it but age caught up with him... anyone interested in a real kit build? If so drop me a note and I'll put you two in touch...


Gordon Andrews