Date   
Southern Railway "F-Card" and "P-Card" Drawing Lists

George Eichelberger
 

To jump-start conversations on the SouthernRailway@groups.io list, we will post a link to a number of Southern Railway "F-Cards" on Sunday. F-Cards are the drawings lists for each freight car specification that show all of the drawings for that group of cars. Virtually every "SF" (freight car) drawing on the F-Cards is in the SRHA archives. Many drawings do not describe the car series they were used so the F-Cards are invaluable for finding whatever drawings are needed. The archives include Card Record F-1 for log cars 1-27 (no date) but published about 1905 through Card Record F-213 for 84 100-Ton 86'-6" Hy-Cube box cars 42862-42945.

The Southern changed their nomenclature for Specifications and Card Lists to use sequential "New Car Program" (NCP) numbers in the mid 1960s. The SRHA archives include from NCP-18 to NCP-59. One reason for the change may have been the beginning of the "Special Car Programs" (SCP) for the rebuilding of hundreds of 40' box cars. The various programs that modified box cars to be roof hatch cars, for example, were included in the SCP files.

Equipping box and flat cars to carry auto parts and finished autos had their own "Automobile Car Program" (ACP) programs.

SRHA was fortunate to have been given permission to remove all of the files from Hayne Shop in Spartanburg before it was closed. Records, drawings and correspondence were obtained for most Southern Railway all-steel equipment. After Spencer Shops closed, Hayne was responsible for maintaining all box cars, passenger cars, business cars and cabooses so much of that documentation survives today. (Coster Shop maintained all "open" cars but not much material was saved when that shop closed.)

Passenger cars had a documentation system that paralleled freight cars; drawings had "SP" prefixes, Specifications and Drawing Lists (P-Cards).

SRHA Archives - Southern Railway Freight Car Drawing List

George Eichelberger
 

As the scans of the F-Cards are simply too large to upload, a PDF of the Southern Railway Freight Cars Drawing spreadsheet is available on Google Drive https://drive.google.com/file/d/1fJUeuBMofeOAmZ23cZcPCiyhebN35-iu/view?usp=sharing

The spreadsheet was prepared before the F-Cards were obtained by SRHA so there will be many variations between the two sets of documents. As scans, the F-Cards cannot be searched or re-arranged so the spreadsheet is the most convenient method to identify drawings. As the F-Cards were the method the Southern used to locate drawings, it is the most accurate. What we need to do is relate/add every item in the F-Cards to an entry on the spreadsheet. I will post a couple of examples of complete F-Cards later today. The PDF is sorted by Road Number. If anyone is interested, we can publish the spreadsheet but anyone who modifies their version needs to realize, their changes will not be on the "master" version. (Some columns are not included in this version.)

As you will note, the spreadsheet has missing items (and probably many errors). It was prepared over the past twenty-years using whatever information could be found on drawings. Because of the very large number of "A" size (SF-40000) drawings that may show a single bolt or small part, those have not been included.

Please note this is a working copy of the spreadsheet! We need to verify every item, compare it to the F-Cards and complete items such as carbuilder, blt date, etc., etc. Because scans of all the F-Cards are available, volunteers can help without visiting the archives in Chattanooga.

Thousands of drawings have been scanned and will be made available as time and resources permit.

moderated Southern Railway "F-Cards", Part 2

George Eichelberger
 

Here are links to two files that provide an example of a Southern Railway freight car Specification (F-17), an F-Card drawing list (F-5)
and the General Arrangement drawing (SF-1011) of the steel frame hopper cars in the Spec. and Card List.

No explanation has ever been found that explains WHY the Southern decided specifications and drawing lists should use the same "F-"
labels on two different documents. Confusing the F- numbers on Specs and Drawing Lists is easy to do. The two IDs might be the same F numbers
but that is not the case after the first few Specs were published. Some specifications include Truck (FT-) Specifications. FT numbers may be the same as the car spec but because trucks specs were used multiple times, the F- and FT- labels are probably different.

Specifications would be the first document produced when the Southern decided to purchase rolling stock. They could be written by the Southern or
submitted to the railroad by a carbuilder. Not every Spec resulted in an order for cars. Some were issued to solicit ideas from carbuilders for a similar car, other were simply to learn what carbuilders could offer. The railroad could provide drawings with the Specs to provide more details on the cars they wanted to buy. If they decided to purchase cars from a particular carbuilder, the builder could either submit their own design drawings, negotiate to build the Southern's drawing or create a new drawing that would be acceptable to the railroad that they could provide.

The Southern did not accept many variations from their specification. In some cases, that eliminated the carbuilder from negotiations. One particular problem was the railroad defined many of the wood components in early cars as standard "parts" they kept in stock for car repairs. If a carbuilder did not want, or could not, provide 8"x10" white oak side sills (the Southern's standard for that "part"), for example their design could be rejected.

Because car designs could vary between the original spec and what was delivered, details in the specifications may not be accurate for what was built and delivered.
As a result, there are drawings in the SRHA archives that were never used.

The third link is the draft of an index with car numbers, Spec. and F-Cards. It is not complete for various reasons; Southern subsidiaries may have used the same specification or F-Cards and the Southern may have re-ordered additional groups of cars without showing the new car series on the spec or Card List.

The SRHA archives contain Card Lists F-1 to F-213, New Car Programs (NCP) NCP-2 to NCP-59 and Specifications F-1 to F-200 and (early) F-A to F-H.
Comparing data in the various documents, correspondence and drawings for every car series is a major project that certainly needs to be done!

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/13rJH7PkpmyBWGESxX2Vj6kMz6Rb3-79_?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1OOmoBKYxJda7yp7h6CEbfxgPzCjNBmyu/view?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/14PrYaKCNPcMPGOZC0HHZliiivyaLQmnE/view?usp=sharing

SRHA

moderated Welcome

Carl Ardrey
 

As president of the SRHA I'd like to welcome everyone to this new group.  I'd also like to invite those interested to participate in our archive work at the TVRM.

moderated ICC Valuation Study Material

George Eichelberger
 

I have uploaded a non-rolling stock document example from the SRHA archives that people may not be familiar with.

From 1916 to 1926, after the ICC Act was passed, every railroad had to conduct "valuation studies" for all of their property, physical plant (track, bridges, structures, etc.) and rolling stock. Account numbers were established for many individual items such as ballast, rail, and ties. Account 16 was "Stations & Office Buildings", 17 "Roadway Buildings", etc. Rolling stock was assigned account numbers in the 50s (if anyone is interested some of those records can be uploaded later.) Knowing the investment (cost) of everything was used to set passenger and freight rates.

For fixed plant items, a railroad was divided into "Valuation Sections" that included a particular line with everything along that segment identified by milepost. There are several types of valuation documents in the SRHA archives; field notes made as the study was conducted, the original valuation inventory (the blueprint pages in this upload) then updates submitted to the ICC every six months (the lighter colored pages). (All of the originals sent to the ICC from every railroad still exist in a warehouse near Washington DC and can be accessed for research.

Thanks to the N&W Historical Society, Southern and Central of Georgia valuation paperwork from was obtained from Norfolk Southern and passed to SRHA. In addition to the Southern Railway material, all railroads that were part of the Southern Railway System; CNO&TP, AGS, NO&NE are represented by their own documents. The archives also contain a large number of Central of Georgia documents and drawings. Valuation Section 34 covers 69.851 miles of "Main Line" and 78.203 "Miles all Tracks" for a Central of Georgia Val Section in the State of Georgia. (Val Sections do not appear to ever cross state lines?)

These examples not only show the initial study, the Central also used them to record changes and retirements at each location over the years. "AFEs" are "Authorizations for Expenditures" used by railroads to establish the account line items and budgets to spend, or receive money. AFEs can apply to one location or a single AFE could remove all of the passenger wait sheds or a telegraph line. When an AFE is approved, whatever work it requires would be done and reported back to the Accounting Dept so the valuation records could be updated. The penciled in updates on these records provide an excellent, although informal, record of changes.

Note! Although the ICC records may show a depot or structure sold or destroyed, it was apparently quite common for railroads to sell buildings if the new owners would simply remove them from railroad property. There are still examples of railroad buildings that were sold and moved in many places. A study of Branchville, SC a few years ago located several in private ownership still used.

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1eFkMHhCT1NOugCPDVvWUE6e-Dbh1Wd5p?usp=sharing

Ike

PS Your comments please! Is this material interesting or useful?

moderated Re: ICC Valuation Study Material

A&Y Dave in MD
 

Are these useful? Oh yes!  I copied Val 27 a and b documents from NARA in College Park, MD in 2000 and they have been very useful. There are survey notebooks with photos, dimensional drawings, maps and economic data sheets. My station maps on the A&Y website as well as station and section house material lists and dimensions come from valuation documents.  I also photocopied the pages of annual reports where statistics on loads carried by car count or by dollar revenues and the capital investments were recorded. So many useful analyses can be generated!

Dave

Sent from Dave Bott's iPad

On Sep 26, 2018, at 10:00 AM, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:

I have uploaded a non-rolling stock document example from the SRHA archives that people may not be familiar with.

From 1916 to 1926, after the ICC Act was passed, every railroad had to conduct "valuation studies" for all of their property, physical plant (track, bridges, structures, etc.) and rolling stock. Account numbers were established for many individual items such as ballast, rail, and ties. Account 16 was "Stations & Office Buildings", 17 "Roadway Buildings", etc. Rolling stock was assigned account numbers in the 50s (if anyone is interested some of those records can be uploaded later.) Knowing the investment (cost) of everything was used to set passenger and freight rates.

For fixed plant items, a railroad was divided into "Valuation Sections" that included a particular line with everything along that segment identified by milepost. There are several types of valuation documents in the SRHA archives; field notes made as the study was conducted, the original valuation inventory (the blueprint pages in this upload) then updates submitted to the ICC every six months (the lighter colored pages). (All of the originals sent to the ICC from every railroad still exist in a warehouse near Washington DC and can be accessed for research.

Thanks to the N&W Historical Society, Southern and Central of Georgia valuation paperwork from was obtained from Norfolk Southern and passed to SRHA. In addition to the Southern Railway material, all railroads that were part of the Southern Railway System; CNO&TP, AGS, NO&NE are represented by their own documents. The archives also contain a large number of Central of Georgia documents and drawings. Valuation Section 34 covers 69.851 miles of "Main Line" and 78.203 "Miles all Tracks" for a Central of Georgia Val Section in the State of Georgia. (Val Sections do not appear to ever cross state lines?)

These examples not only show the initial study, the Central also used them to record changes and retirements at each location over the years. "AFEs" are "Authorizations for Expenditures" used by railroads to establish the account line items and budgets to spend, or receive money. AFEs can apply to one location or a single AFE could remove all of the passenger wait sheds or a telegraph line. When an AFE is approved, whatever work it requires would be done and reported back to the Accounting Dept so the valuation records could be updated. The penciled in updates on these records provide an excellent, although informal, record of changes.

Note! Although the ICC records may show a depot or structure sold or destroyed, it was apparently quite common for railroads to sell buildings if the new owners would simply remove them from railroad property. There are still examples of railroad buildings that were sold and moved in many places. A study of Branchville, SC a few years ago located several in private ownership still used.

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1eFkMHhCT1NOugCPDVvWUE6e-Dbh1Wd5p?usp=sharing

Ike

PS Your comments please! Is this material interesting or useful?

moderated Re: ICC Valuation Study Material

Charles Harris
 

HI George

Yes, this information very interesting.  Keep posting such items.

Thanks

Charles Harris

moderated Evaluation and Purchase of New Diesel Locomotives

Charles Harris
 

Hi
In 1946 Southern evaluated and tested the Ingalls 4-S  diesel loco.  The loco finally purchased by GM&O.

I expect there would have been evaluation reports and recommendations done by Southern.  George:  can you keep an eye out for any documentation during your travels thru all the Southern records.  Thanks.

Ingalls Iron Works in Birmingham AL had a hand in the build (together with Ingalls Shipbuilding MS)  In Birmingham the trackage went right by/thru? the Ingalls factory (on Avenue F ?).  There is a possibility that Ingalls would have had to get Southern permission to access the trackage for commissioning and testing.  Any thoughts?

Thanks

Charles Harris

moderated Ordering Copies of Documents from the Archives

Tim
 

Ike;

Thank you for making us aware of the materials available in the SRHA archives. I think that this is a valuable resource that not enough people use. 

I realize that the archives are sort of in flux right now, with the move to Chattanooga. I know that it included a partial index before the move. Unfortunately, getting to Chattanooga for the work sessions isn't going to work for me right now, because of constraints on my vacation time and competing interests. I also don't want to distract people from the good work they're doing to deal with my requests. When do you think that will be far enough along?

I particularly liked your sample ICC valuation reports and look forward to getting some copies of these when things have settled down there in Chattanooga.

Tim Rumph
Lancaster, SC

moderated Re: Ordering Copies of Documents from the Archives

George Eichelberger
 

Tim:

For a start, you are welcome to download the Val Section scans on Google Drive.

All of the summaries (the blue prints) for the Southern records have been scanned but not many of the semi-annual submissions have been done. They can be scanned with a sheet feeder but only with a few at a time so manpower to do the work is the limiting factor. (There are 2,302 scans for just the summaries (4.21Gb) but I could not guess how many Val Section updates pages there are. The “ICC Scans” file today has 5,527 items using 153 Gb of memory. Buying more scanners and updating our PCs are two items where we can use some help. We have a high speed fiber optic Internet connection but we want to acquire and install our own server.)

The number sounds bizarre but we had to weigh everything for the move so I am accurate when I say we moved 30 TONS of archives materials from Kennesaw. The photo tour on the SRHA web site (www.srha.net in the archives section provides a rough idea of how much that is.

With everything that needs to be done, it’s hard to predict when anything will be finished. Our first two priorities are researching material for TIES Magazine articles and working with manufacturers that ask for information for future products. Requests from individuals simply cannot be given a high priority.

Ike






On Sep 26, 2018, at 4:47 PM, Tim <tarumph@...> wrote:

Ike;

Thank you for making us aware of the materials available in the SRHA archives. I think that this is a valuable resource that not enough people use. 

I realize that the archives are sort of in flux right now, with the move to Chattanooga. I know that it included a partial index before the move. Unfortunately, getting to Chattanooga for the work sessions isn't going to work for me right now, because of constraints on my vacation time and competing interests. I also don't want to distract people from the good work they're doing to deal with my requests. When do you think that will be far enough along?

I particularly liked your sample ICC valuation reports and look forward to getting some copies of these when things have settled down there in Chattanooga.

Tim Rumph
Lancaster, SC

moderated ICC "Investment in Road and Equipment"

George Eichelberger
 

The ICC Valuation Process has an instruction manual. It is not light reading but it does explain the process to be followed and, most important to us, the various accounts to be used for different categories of investments.

The ICC records are in ledger size binders in the SRHA archives. As soon as our Spacesaver shelving is installed next month, they can be catalouged, unpacked and accessible to be researched or scanned.

The link to download the PDF on Google Drive is:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1AWqzQpHi4kW8J0TznhRUTnhJxGiM-p3K/view?usp=sharing

Ike

moderated Re: ICC "Investment in Road and Equipment"

rwbrv4
 

Ike pages 16/17 are missing from this document.  
Rick 


-----Original Message-----
From: George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...>
To: SouthernRailway <SouthernRailway@groups.io>
Sent: Thu, Sep 27, 2018 9:58 am
Subject: [SouthernRailway] ICC "Investment in Road and Equipment"

The ICC Valuation Process has an instruction manual. It is not light reading but it does explain the process to be followed and, most important to us, the various accounts to be used for different categories of investments.

The ICC records are in ledger size binders in the SRHA archives. As soon as our Spacesaver shelving is installed next month, they can be catalouged, unpacked and accessible to be researched or scanned.

The link to download the PDF on Google Drive is:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1AWqzQpHi4kW8J0TznhRUTnhJxGiM-p3K/view?usp=sharing

Ike




moderated Re: Evaluation and Purchase of New Diesel Locomotives

George Eichelberger
 

Charles:

While researching the Southern diesel book, I found a reference to the Ingalls locomotive. I will dig though what I've accumulated and see if I can find that reference.

We will also look in the Oscar Kimsey industrial loco photo file to see what it may have. Oscar's Industrial photos and negatives are as extensive as I have ever seen on the subject. If someone was interested, we could produce a book of Oscar's (and other) photos. A second collection, acquired by Oscar, includes large format negatives of industrial, short line and main line steam. Marvelous material!

Ike

moderated Re: ICC "Investment in Road and Equipment"

rwbrv4
 

Ike pages 16 and 17 are missing from this.
Rick




On Thursday, September 27, 2018 George Eichelberger <SouthernRailway@groups.io> wrote:

The ICC Valuation Process has an instruction manual. It is not light reading but it does explain the process to be followed and, most important to us, the various accounts to be used for different categories of investments.

The ICC records are in ledger size binders in the SRHA archives. As soon as our Spacesaver shelving is installed next month, they can be catalouged, unpacked and accessible to be researched or scanned.

The link to download the PDF on Google Drive is:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1AWqzQpHi4kW8J0TznhRUTnhJxGiM-p3K/view?usp=sharing

Ike




moderated Glad to be on board

mclemons@...
 

Thanks for the invitation to membership.  

May I suggest a different photo for the home page?  Seeing a herd of elephants, at first I thought I might have been fooled into joining a Republican party interest group.  Or have I ??? ;o)

~ Marv Clemons

moderated Re: Glad to be on board

George Eichelberger
 

Marv:

I just fixed the photo….

I could not figure out how to replace the elephants but it turned out it took longer to upload the photo than I was giving it to finish. Waddya think of the replacement? 

The photo is by David Driscoll. We obtained his slides with the Marvin Black collection. When I first looked through Marvin’s material I could not believe there were 35mm Kodak slides with a RED border. I understand they started out that way with ASA 10 Kodachrome.

For the SR steam fans among us, the SRHA archives include 3,560 color and B&W scans of steam engines….with many (!) hundreds more photos and negatives to be scanned. In addition to photos, there are 1,004 scans of SR steam loco drawings.

The Oscar Kimsey collection includes hundreds more steam negatives and photos from other railroads. 107 of Oscar’s L&N cab photos and 458 L&N MoW photos have been scanned. (Of course, our friends at the L&NHS already have them.) A future project will be to scan the hundreds of ACL, SAL, GA, A&WP, etc. negatives.

Ike


On Sep 27, 2018, at 1:23 PM, mclemons@... wrote:

Thanks for the invitation to membership.  

May I suggest a different photo for the home page?  Seeing a herd of elephants, at first I thought I might have been fooled into joining a Republican party interest group.  Or have I ??? ;o)

~ Marv Clemons

moderated Re: Evaluation and Purchase of New Diesel Locomotives

Charles Harris
 

Hi Ike


Thanks for your email and offer to locate reference re Ingalls.  No hurry to locate just when you come across it again.

Regards


Charles

New Zealand


On 28/09/18 03:45, George Eichelberger wrote:
Charles:

While researching the Southern diesel book, I found a reference to the Ingalls locomotive. I will dig though what I've accumulated and see if I can find that reference.

We will also look in the Oscar Kimsey industrial loco photo file to see what it may have. Oscar's Industrial photos and negatives are as extensive as I have ever seen on the subject. If someone was interested, we could produce a book of Oscar's (and other) photos. A second collection, acquired by Oscar, includes large format negatives of industrial, short line and main line steam. Marvelous material!

Ike

moderated Re: Glad to be on board

Carl Ardrey
 

Or an Alabama football site.

moderated A&Y locomotive roster pages expanded and updated

A&Y Dave in MD
 

Dear list,

I've been organizing and scanning my prints as well as my collected electronic images of A&Y locomotives for several months.  In addition, I'm combing through the correspondence files to find evidence of locomotives leased or rented from the Southern or at least considered for the A&Y. I've posted many of the results on my website. The blurb on my index page is:

I have added another 15 pages on unique locomotives and doubled or tripled the total number of locomotive photos available on all the pages. Some of the stories are interesting, like
313, 541 or 803, and sometimes you find a really nice photo like the 254. And sometimes, it is about the not-quite-A&Y locomotives that remained in Southern livery their whole service life, such as 516, 655 and 659.  So check out the added loco pages, but revisit the old ones to see lots of new photos. I would start with the updated roster table on the locomotive page.

For those of you not familiar with the A&Y, it is the Atlantic & Yadkin Railway that ran from Sanford through Greensboro to Mount Airy in NC. It was a wholly owned subsidiary of the Southern from 1899-1950 when it was absorbed into the Winston-Salem division after it's bonds came due and the Southern just paid them off and absorbed the line as it tried to financially as well as organizationally simplify the amalgam created from bankruptcy and acquisition up to that time. My brief history of the line is
here.

This little steam only short line has held my historical interest for over 25 years. Along with members of the Greensboro Chapter of the NRHS, I have been collecting information and displaying it on my web site or publishing what I can (including an article in TIES a few years ago). If you browse my site, you will see station data, industries served, lists of employees, and stories of all the folks who have helped me research this line. The home page is
http://southern-railway.railfan.net/ay/ 

Dave

--

Sent from David Bott's desktop pc

moderated Roof hatch boxcar uses

D. Scott Chatfield
 

A friend asked me today if the Southern's roof hatch boxcars (AAR class LC) were used for anything other than kaolin.  When I worked there they were mostly used for kaolin shipments to Mexico, and I think a customer or two in New England that couldn't unload covered hoppers.  Is anyone aware of another commodity shipped in these cars?

Bob Harpe from Savannah, one long time and prolific modeler of the Southern, has given clinics about the roof hatch boxes.  He has also been the host of the RPM meets in Savannah for years.  I'm told he had a heart attack this week so please keep him in your prayers.

Scott Chatfield


Scott Chatfield