Date   
moderated Re: Southern 72747

George Eichelberger
 

Kevin:

One of the local fans told us the railroad hired a contractor periodically to salvage the coal and scrap the cars. Other than rust on the wheels, there was no way to tell how long the car laid there but it had been some time.

The gate onto mine property was a short distance past the switch points beside a public road. The tipple was maybe 1/4 mile inside the fence so the car must have built up some speed before it was diverted. I do not know if it would be considered a "derailment" as far as the Southern was concerned?

I took multiple rolls of Kodachrome while a group of us from Tampa and N.C. railfanned the area. What seemed like an excessive number of slides then was really nothing when we realize how much coal mining has declined in SW Virginia.

Ike

PS Kevin Centers is the SRHA Treasurer and a BOD member. A volunteer 501c3 organization simply cannot function without good financial records and controls, Kevin provide both......

moderated Re: Southern bulkhead flat 116184

Robert Graham
 

Decking is wood clearly in the photo. Also shown on the print as the "wood grain" is drawn into the detail of several of the planks. The thickness, type of wood and specified finish is likely in the detail drawings or bill of materials. No way it would not be specified somewhere.

Bob Graham


---- George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:

To answer a question about the decking on Southern Greenville Steel Car bulkhead flats, here is the title block half of GSC drawing 36028 but I do not see any references to the planks being wood or steel. The photo of Southern 116184, I took at Atlanta July 2001 shows their wood decks clearly.

The early Intermountain (?) center beam flat may provide a starting point for one of the bulkhead versions. The tie down ratchets on the kit are very nice and starting with an underframe and deck would save a lot of scratchbuilding. I have lost track of which Southern car had the same truck centers although that length could be modified rather easily.

Ike


moderated V1 of Southern Railway Contracts Covers Catalog

George Eichelberger
 

One of the on-going SRHA archives projects has been to scan as many of the 1,100+ Southern Railway contract books as possible. The first pass scanning the unbound contracts we have is done.
Now, we will do re-scans as needed, scan other contracts in bound volumes and attempt to beg, borrow or purchase the two of three bound volumes we are missing. (Two "disappeared" as we were leaving Kennesaw.)

The entire scan file is very large and we need to scan, clean up and make searchable the indexes the Southern prepared each time they bound a group of contracts together to distribute to the executives. More than 700 covers have been scanned
and included in a thumbnail "catalog". Version 1 is available (for a short time) on Google Drive using the link:

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1wbNf3y9IKO0SovGz9_eGkrjIMq39TSO9?usp=sharing

Admittedly, some contracts are "dry as a bone" and not of much use to Southern modelers or historians. The majority are rich sources of data never before seen by many people. There are several different categories: Union stations and shared facilities include all of the details about which railroad owns and controls a facility, what the tenant road will pay, etc. So/me include structure drawings or track layouts included in the text. Junctions and interlocking are particularly useful because they provide construction and modification dates, track details and even the arrangement of the "interlocking" bars used in the hand-thrown versions. As the contracts include agreements from the 1880s into the 1960s, it is not unusual to find multiple versions for the same location. Earlier versions are either modified or cancelled by later agreements. Together they provide a useful history of that specific depot or junction.

Trackage rights agreements are very detailed and go from miles of shared main lines to joint use of street trackage or an industrial siding. Drawings are typically included to illustrate what the agreement covers.

Rolling stock has its own version; purchase contracts and trust agreements typically list what equipment/which car or loco builder it came from, etc. Usually as many as 50 pages, only the cover and pages that list the rolling stock to be included have been scanned. As primarily "banking" documents, they include a lot of detail about when bond payments are to be made, etc.

I have attached a PDF copy of contract No. 861 between the Southern and the Interstate Railroad for trackage at Appalachia, VA. It includes a drawing of the track layout at Appalachia. The joint agreement contracts include whichever other railroad(s) were involved.
Cincinnati Union Terminal, Jacksonville Terminal, Atlanta Terminal Station and Union Station in Washington, DC are all covered by different contracts.

The thumbnail size text may be difficult to read, or the color cover did not scan well but for "V-1" we think it useful for people to at least see and understand what this collection is all about. SRHA will make full copies of all of the scanned contracts available in the near future.If someone is particularly interested, we can provide a limited number, particularly for anyone willing to write articles for TIES.

Your questions or comments please!

Ike

PS You may need to download the entire file from Google then click on the unumbered html file. Your browser should then show the entire catalog in sequence.

moderated Re: V1 of Southern Railway Contracts Covers Catalog

sgwarner88@...
 

Ike-.  Looks like a good reproduction of a typical Jt. Facility agreement, of which I made, amended, or supplemented over much of my career.  I am glad to see that the agreements are being organized and were saved.  While I was there I fought a continuing battle to not destroy them, but others in my group pushed for destruction of the contracts that I used every day.  And the 3 yrs. Trashing decree didn’t help.

 

While I am involved in other thing these days, if anyone needs interpretation or understanding of any facility, I will be glad to review and explain the intent and usage/history of the facility.  For instance, this agreement was located in downtown Appalachia just east of the L&N depot and west of the Westmoreland Transloader which used the old SR Appalachia Yard until going into Andover.  I inspected the track about two times/week in the 70’s, although of course the IRR tracks were not needed after SR getting the IR. We still interchanged with the L&N there.   I always was fascinated by these agreements, because if one took the time to go over the history of the parties and locations involved, one could develop a 10,000’ view of the context of a specific agreement.  Such as the East Gulf, W. Va./ Crab Orchard Stone Coal Jct. C&O – Vgn. early 1900’s agreements, all of which were needed to break up the Piney River and Paint Creek Railroad in early 1900.

 

I also managed to “salvage” many ancient maps and terminal maps from destruction during my days at SR/NS, and have them here in my files.  If anyone wants to review them for the purpose of copying them, I will be glad to meet them to discuss (but I still want to keep them for now).

 

Stephen

 

From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io> On Behalf Of George Eichelberger
Sent: Monday, March 18, 2019 10:12 AM
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io
Subject: [SouthernRailway] V1 of Southern Railway Contracts Covers Catalog

 

One of the on-going SRHA archives projects has been to scan as many of the 1,100+ Southern Railway contract books as possible. The first pass scanning the unbound contracts we have is done.
Now, we will do re-scans as needed, scan other contracts in bound volumes and attempt to beg, borrow or purchase the two of three bound volumes we are missing. (Two "disappeared" as we were leaving Kennesaw.)

The entire scan file is very large and we need to scan, clean up and make searchable the indexes the Southern prepared each time they bound a group of contracts together to distribute to the executives. More than 700 covers have been scanned
and included in a thumbnail "catalog". Version 1 is available (for a short time) on Google Drive using the link:

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1wbNf3y9IKO0SovGz9_eGkrjIMq39TSO9?usp=sharing

Admittedly, some contracts are "dry as a bone" and not of much use to Southern modelers or historians. The majority are rich sources of data never before seen by many people. There are several different categories: Union stations and shared facilities include all of the details about which railroad owns and controls a facility, what the tenant road will pay, etc. So/me include structure drawings or track layouts included in the text. Junctions and interlocking are particularly useful because they provide construction and modification dates, track details and even the arrangement of the "interlocking" bars used in the hand-thrown versions. As the contracts include agreements from the 1880s into the 1960s, it is not unusual to find multiple versions for the same location. Earlier versions are either modified or cancelled by later agreements. Together they provide a useful history of that specific depot or junction.

Trackage rights agreements are very detailed and go from miles of shared main lines to joint use of street trackage or an industrial siding. Drawings are typically included to illustrate what the agreement covers.

Rolling stock has its own version; purchase contracts and trust agreements typically list what equipment/which car or loco builder it came from, etc. Usually as many as 50 pages, only the cover and pages that list the rolling stock to be included have been scanned. As primarily "banking" documents, they include a lot of detail about when bond payments are to be made, etc.

I have attached a PDF copy of contract No. 861 between the Southern and the Interstate Railroad for trackage at Appalachia, VA. It includes a drawing of the track layout at Appalachia. The joint agreement contracts include whichever other railroad(s) were involved.
Cincinnati Union Terminal, Jacksonville Terminal, Atlanta Terminal Station and Union Station in Washington, DC are all covered by different contracts.

The thumbnail size text may be difficult to read, or the color cover did not scan well but for "V-1" we think it useful for people to at least see and understand what this collection is all about. SRHA will make full copies of all of the scanned contracts available in the near future.If someone is particularly interested, we can provide a limited number, particularly for anyone willing to write articles for TIES.

Your questions or comments please!

Ike

PS You may need to download the entire file from Google then click on the unumbered html file. Your browser should then show the entire catalog in sequence.

moderated Appendix to Contracts Book Index to Vol IX

George Eichelberger
 

Although the terminology does not appear to be commonly used, a few of the more than 23 bound SR contract books include an "Index Appendix", The example from Volume iX is attached. It groups contracts by subject rather than as individual items. The contract numbers are the same as on the covers.

Ike

moderated Weekend paint and decal project

A&Y Dave in MD
 

Friday night, I had some leftover Tru Color paint in my airbrush cup after painting my pulp racks, so I pulled out an Ertl low side gon project car, removed trucks and deck, then painted it black. I had a steam era image from 1929 showing a Southern gondola during construction work at Duke University. So I put together some graphics in Adobe Illustrator to match on Sunday and printed the decal sheet. Tonight I applied the decals. I was in too much of a hurry and screwed up the E, but I managed to finish the whole car on all sides. I added Tahoe trucks and I need to replace some grabs and stirrup steps, but I think it came out decent. Next one will have corner gussets, vertical brake wheel, scale couplers, and proper K brakes. But at least now I have one more example for my presentation on Ghost White decals at the Greensburg RPM meet. See you at my talk 4pm Saturday. The car will be on display.


Dave Bott

moderated Re: Weekend paint and decal project

O Fenton Wells
 

Well done David, it looks very good and the decals appear very correct.
Fenton

On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 9:45 PM A&Y Dave in MD <dbott@...> wrote:
Friday night, I had some leftover Tru Color paint in my airbrush cup after painting my pulp racks, so I pulled out an Ertl low side gon project car, removed trucks and deck, then painted it black. I had a steam era image from 1929 showing a Southern gondola during construction work at Duke University. So I put together some graphics in Adobe Illustrator to match on Sunday and printed the decal sheet. Tonight I applied the decals. I was in too much of a hurry and screwed up the E, but I managed to finish the whole car on all sides. I added Tahoe trucks and I need to replace some grabs and stirrup steps, but I think it came out decent. Next one will have corner gussets, vertical brake wheel, scale couplers, and proper K brakes. But at least now I have one more example for my presentation on Ghost White decals at the Greensburg RPM meet. See you at my talk 4pm Saturday. The car will be on display.


Dave Bott





--
Fenton Wells
250 Frye Rd
Pinehurst NC 28374
910-420-8106
srrfan1401@...

moderated Re: Southern 72747

mike turner
 

In the picture SOU72747_3.tif, the brake step appears to be a slotted Apex design. Is this correct?

Did all the SOU 70t 3bay AAR hoppers use this brake step?

There appear to be hopper door locks only on one side. Is this normal?

The brake rigging has a cover over part. Was this normal SOU practice?

Thx.

Mike

MP-Z35

On 3/17/2019 11:08 AM, George Eichelberger wrote:
Here are three photos of Southern 70-ton hopper 72747 derailed and on its side just outside the mine at the very north end of the Roda or Stonega Interstate mine spurs. The tipple is uphill to the left. The switch, like a safety track, was normally set for the siding to keep cars from running away down the valley. Although rails had been removed to insure cars were derailed, note one photo taken from the other end shows the siding curving off to the left. We did not walk that line but I suspect it was a derail or safety track rather than a lead to another mine.

Ike

moderated Jim Crow Coaches

Charles Powell
 

A friend of mine sent me the link below to a short video from 2016 regarding the SOU 1200 coach that was placed in the Smithsonian. The video showed some short clips of the car's interior during the restoration. One of the issues they pointed out was that a difference between the "colored" section and the "white" section was that the colored section lacked luggage racks overhead. I was never on one of those cars during the Jim Crow era but did ride them in the 1960s after desegregation.  I remember the colored section had two small restrooms while the white section had two large ones and I can remember luggage racks but I can't recall if they were lacking in the colored section. The seats were the same throughout. I wonder if since the 1200 came from TVRM's storage yard if the luggage racks had been removed from one end in order to fix another car and the Smithsonian folks assumed that the car was always that way? I would have thought that even if the car lacked luggage racks on one end during the Jim Crow era, they would have been installed after desegregation when both sections of the car would have been used by anybody. 

Any thoughts anyone?
Charlie Powell 


https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.smithsonianmag.com%2Fsmithsonian-institution%2Fsegregated-railway-car-offers-visceral-reminder-jim-crow-era-180959383%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7Ca88c93999e5a4e55151e08d6b8873bec%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636899288289421094&sdata=UN1H%2FzQdXdup%2B5ixe1937%2BemrwZqsCIApgJbE6TtqsQ%3D&reserved=0

moderated Re: Jim Crow Coaches

C J Wyatt
 

<<

On Saturday, April 6, 2019, 07:23:35 PM EDT, Charles Powell <charlesspowell@...> wrote:


A friend of mine sent me the link below to a short video from 2016 regarding the SOU 1200 coach that was placed in the Smithsonian. The video showed some short clips of the car's interior during the restoration. One of the issues they pointed out was that a difference between the "colored" section and the "white" section was that the colored section lacked luggage racks overhead. I was never on one of those cars during the Jim Crow era but did ride them in the 1960s after desegregation.  I remember the colored section had two small restrooms while the white section had two large ones and I can remember luggage racks but I can't recall if they were lacking in the colored section. The seats were the same throughout. I wonder if since the 1200 came from TVRM's storage yard if the luggage racks had been removed from one end in order to fix another car and the Smithsonian folks assumed that the car was always that way? I would have thought that even if the car lacked luggage racks on one end during the Jim Crow era, they would have been installed after desegregation when both sections of the car would have been used by anybody. 

Any thoughts anyone?
Charlie Powell 

>>

Are we sure that the Smithsonian got it correct about which end was the colored end? 

Take a look at the divided chair cars built for the 1941 Tennessean and Southerner streamliners.

Jack Wyatt




_._,_._,_

moderated Re: Jim Crow Coaches

George Eichelberger
 

Charlie:

I helped do the research on that car in the SRHA archives before it went to the Smithsonian. Other than the fact that the toilets  at the ends of the car were slightly different sizes, we found NO differences between the “white" and “colored” sections of the car. It is unlikely the Southern would have been interested in creating any differences as the cars were not always in Jim Crow services and the Southern was very interested in providing good service to its “colored” passengers.

We provided quite a few drawings and specifications for the effort and only asked that SRHA be given appropriate credit in the display, I hope that is the case?

Ike


On Apr 6, 2019, at 7:23 PM, Charles Powell <charlesspowell@...> wrote:

A friend of mine sent me the link below to a short video from 2016 regarding the SOU 1200 coach that was placed in the Smithsonian. The video showed some short clips of the car's interior during the restoration. One of the issues they pointed out was that a difference between the "colored" section and the "white" section was that the colored section lacked luggage racks overhead. I was never on one of those cars during the Jim Crow era but did ride them in the 1960s after desegregation.  I remember the colored section had two small restrooms while the white section had two large ones and I can remember luggage racks but I can't recall if they were lacking in the colored section. The seats were the same throughout. I wonder if since the 1200 came from TVRM's storage yard if the luggage racks had been removed from one end in order to fix another car and the Smithsonian folks assumed that the car was always that way? I would have thought that even if the car lacked luggage racks on one end during the Jim Crow era, they would have been installed after desegregation when both sections of the car would have been used by anybody. 

Any thoughts anyone?
Charlie Powell 


https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.smithsonianmag.com%2Fsmithsonian-institution%2Fsegregated-railway-car-offers-visceral-reminder-jim-crow-era-180959383%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7Ca88c93999e5a4e55151e08d6b8873bec%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636899288289421094&sdata=UN1H%2FzQdXdup%2B5ixe1937%2BemrwZqsCIApgJbE6TtqsQ%3D&reserved=0

moderated Re: Jim Crow Coaches

Don Yelverton
 

Ike,
Where did this car color come from?

Don

On Saturday, April 6, 2019, 07:35:17 PM EDT, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:


Charlie:

I helped do the research on that car in the SRHA archives before it went to the Smithsonian. Other than the fact that the toilets  at the ends of the car were slightly different sizes, we found NO differences between the “white" and “colored” sections of the car. It is unlikely the Southern would have been interested in creating any differences as the cars were not always in Jim Crow services and the Southern was very interested in providing good service to its “colored” passengers.

We provided quite a few drawings and specifications for the effort and only asked that SRHA be given appropriate credit in the display, I hope that is the case?

Ike


On Apr 6, 2019, at 7:23 PM, Charles Powell <charlesspowell@...> wrote:

A friend of mine sent me the link below to a short video from 2016 regarding the SOU 1200 coach that was placed in the Smithsonian. The video showed some short clips of the car's interior during the restoration. One of the issues they pointed out was that a difference between the "colored" section and the "white" section was that the colored section lacked luggage racks overhead. I was never on one of those cars during the Jim Crow era but did ride them in the 1960s after desegregation.  I remember the colored section had two small restrooms while the white section had two large ones and I can remember luggage racks but I can't recall if they were lacking in the colored section. The seats were the same throughout. I wonder if since the 1200 came from TVRM's storage yard if the luggage racks had been removed from one end in order to fix another car and the Smithsonian folks assumed that the car was always that way? I would have thought that even if the car lacked luggage racks on one end during the Jim Crow era, they would have been installed after desegregation when both sections of the car would have been used by anybody. 

Any thoughts anyone?
Charlie Powell 


https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.smithsonianmag.com%2Fsmithsonian-institution%2Fsegregated-railway-car-offers-visceral-reminder-jim-crow-era-180959383%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7Ca88c93999e5a4e55151e08d6b8873bec%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636899288289421094&sdata=UN1H%2FzQdXdup%2B5ixe1937%2BemrwZqsCIApgJbE6TtqsQ%3D&reserved=0

moderated Re: Jim Crow Coaches

Bill Schafer
 

Don:

I know the answer to the car color. The SRHA knows it’s wrong; the Smithsonian chose not to utilize the correct colors, saying that the authentic colors wouldn’t look “right” in the lighting that would be used where the car would be displayed. This information came directly to me from Bill Withuhn. 

Coupled with the apparent lack of luggage racks in the “colored” end of the car, it appears to me that the Smithsonian has not been very conscientious in portraying this car as it was in regular service.

—Bill

On Apr 6, 2019, at 8:45 PM, Don Yelverton via Groups.Io <donyelverton@...> wrote:

Ike,
Where did this car color come from?

Don

On Saturday, April 6, 2019, 07:35:17 PM EDT, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:


Charlie:

I helped do the research on that car in the SRHA archives before it went to the Smithsonian. Other than the fact that the toilets  at the ends of the car were slightly different sizes, we found NO differences between the “white" and “colored” sections of the car. It is unlikely the Southern would have been interested in creating any differences as the cars were not always in Jim Crow services and the Southern was very interested in providing good service to its “colored” passengers.

We provided quite a few drawings and specifications for the effort and only asked that SRHA be given appropriate credit in the display, I hope that is the case?

Ike


On Apr 6, 2019, at 7:23 PM, Charles Powell <charlesspowell@...> wrote:

A friend of mine sent me the link below to a short video from 2016 regarding the SOU 1200 coach that was placed in the Smithsonian. The video showed some short clips of the car's interior during the restoration. One of the issues they pointed out was that a difference between the "colored" section and the "white" section was that the colored section lacked luggage racks overhead. I was never on one of those cars during the Jim Crow era but did ride them in the 1960s after desegregation.  I remember the colored section had two small restrooms while the white section had two large ones and I can remember luggage racks but I can't recall if they were lacking in the colored section. The seats were the same throughout. I wonder if since the 1200 came from TVRM's storage yard if the luggage racks had been removed from one end in order to fix another car and the Smithsonian folks assumed that the car was always that way? I would have thought that even if the car lacked luggage racks on one end during the Jim Crow era, they would have been installed after desegregation when both sections of the car would have been used by anybody. 

Any thoughts anyone?
Charlie Powell 


https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.smithsonianmag.com%2Fsmithsonian-institution%2Fsegregated-railway-car-offers-visceral-reminder-jim-crow-era-180959383%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7Ca88c93999e5a4e55151e08d6b8873bec%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636899288289421094&sdata=UN1H%2FzQdXdup%2B5ixe1937%2BemrwZqsCIApgJbE6TtqsQ%3D&reserved=0


moderated Re: Jim Crow Coaches

George Eichelberger
 

I’ve attached a low res version of Southern drawing SP-6098 showing the floor plan of partitioned coaches 1200-1206. The variations in the lav. sizes are shown as are the luggage racks on both ends of the car. This drawing, among others, was provided before the car was “restored” for the Smithsonian. Written specifications also make it clear both ends of the car were equipped with luggage racks.

Our (SRHA’s) concern when we did the research was that people would seize on ANY difference in the car as “proof” the railroad wanted to discriminate between the races. I was unhappy with the restoration but what is left to say after the Smithsonian made such a mess out of the 1401!

We have a tremendous amount of Southern passenger car info in the SRHA archives. It is open to anyone that wants to do serious research on the Southern Railway. Everyone is invited to come to the archives grand opening on the Saturday of this year’s convention at Chattanooga. We would like to accomplish and finish many things before the opening but we need manpower and cash.

SRHA member or not…..please consider helping! Folks may also help TVRM acquire Southern diner 3307 from Amtrak. It will be used for food service on TVRM.

Ike




On Apr 6, 2019, at 8:45 PM, Don Yelverton via Groups.Io <donyelverton@...> wrote:

Ike,
Where did this car color come from?

Don

On Saturday, April 6, 2019, 07:35:17 PM EDT, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:


Charlie:

I helped do the research on that car in the SRHA archives before it went to the Smithsonian. Other than the fact that the toilets  at the ends of the car were slightly different sizes, we found NO differences between the “white" and “colored” sections of the car. It is unlikely the Southern would have been interested in creating any differences as the cars were not always in Jim Crow services and the Southern was very interested in providing good service to its “colored” passengers.

We provided quite a few drawings and specifications for the effort and only asked that SRHA be given appropriate credit in the display, I hope that is the case?

Ike


On Apr 6, 2019, at 7:23 PM, Charles Powell <charlesspowell@...> wrote:

A friend of mine sent me the link below to a short video from 2016 regarding the SOU 1200 coach that was placed in the Smithsonian. The video showed some short clips of the car's interior during the restoration. One of the issues they pointed out was that a difference between the "colored" section and the "white" section was that the colored section lacked luggage racks overhead. I was never on one of those cars during the Jim Crow era but did ride them in the 1960s after desegregation.  I remember the colored section had two small restrooms while the white section had two large ones and I can remember luggage racks but I can't recall if they were lacking in the colored section. The seats were the same throughout. I wonder if since the 1200 came from TVRM's storage yard if the luggage racks had been removed from one end in order to fix another car and the Smithsonian folks assumed that the car was always that way? I would have thought that even if the car lacked luggage racks on one end during the Jim Crow era, they would have been installed after desegregation when both sections of the car would have been used by anybody. 

Any thoughts anyone?
Charlie Powell 


https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.smithsonianmag.com%2Fsmithsonian-institution%2Fsegregated-railway-car-offers-visceral-reminder-jim-crow-era-180959383%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7Ca88c93999e5a4e55151e08d6b8873bec%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636899288289421094&sdata=UN1H%2FzQdXdup%2B5ixe1937%2BemrwZqsCIApgJbE6TtqsQ%3D&reserved=0


moderated Re: Jim Crow Coaches

Don Yelverton
 

Bill,
Good to hear from you.
What a backwards way to do things. It’s not that difficult to use the correct color temp lighting. You’d think they’d never lighted a display before. Wonder how many other items they’ve done like this? I’m sure it’s not the first time. Wonder what color the PS4 would using this methodology?
Don


On Apr 6, 2019, at 9:48 PM, Bill Schafer <bill4501@...> wrote:

Don:

I know the answer to the car color. The SRHA knows it’s wrong; the Smithsonian chose not to utilize the correct colors, saying that the authentic colors wouldn’t look “right” in the lighting that would be used where the car would be displayed. This information came directly to me from Bill Withuhn. 

Coupled with the apparent lack of luggage racks in the “colored” end of the car, it appears to me that the Smithsonian has not been very conscientious in portraying this car as it was in regular service.

—Bill

On Apr 6, 2019, at 8:45 PM, Don Yelverton via Groups.Io <donyelverton@...> wrote:

Ike,
Where did this car color come from?

Don

On Saturday, April 6, 2019, 07:35:17 PM EDT, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:


Charlie:

I helped do the research on that car in the SRHA archives before it went to the Smithsonian. Other than the fact that the toilets  at the ends of the car were slightly different sizes, we found NO differences between the “white" and “colored” sections of the car. It is unlikely the Southern would have been interested in creating any differences as the cars were not always in Jim Crow services and the Southern was very interested in providing good service to its “colored” passengers.

We provided quite a few drawings and specifications for the effort and only asked that SRHA be given appropriate credit in the display, I hope that is the case?

Ike


On Apr 6, 2019, at 7:23 PM, Charles Powell <charlesspowell@...> wrote:

A friend of mine sent me the link below to a short video from 2016 regarding the SOU 1200 coach that was placed in the Smithsonian. The video showed some short clips of the car's interior during the restoration. One of the issues they pointed out was that a difference between the "colored" section and the "white" section was that the colored section lacked luggage racks overhead. I was never on one of those cars during the Jim Crow era but did ride them in the 1960s after desegregation.  I remember the colored section had two small restrooms while the white section had two large ones and I can remember luggage racks but I can't recall if they were lacking in the colored section. The seats were the same throughout. I wonder if since the 1200 came from TVRM's storage yard if the luggage racks had been removed from one end in order to fix another car and the Smithsonian folks assumed that the car was always that way? I would have thought that even if the car lacked luggage racks on one end during the Jim Crow era, they would have been installed after desegregation when both sections of the car would have been used by anybody. 

Any thoughts anyone?
Charlie Powell 


https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.smithsonianmag.com%2Fsmithsonian-institution%2Fsegregated-railway-car-offers-visceral-reminder-jim-crow-era-180959383%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7Ca88c93999e5a4e55151e08d6b8873bec%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636899288289421094&sdata=UN1H%2FzQdXdup%2B5ixe1937%2BemrwZqsCIApgJbE6TtqsQ%3D&reserved=0


moderated Re: Jim Crow Coaches

George Eichelberger
 

We know that the Southern delivered 1401 shopped and painted. There is NO way the railroad would have done it any other way. Now…could we get someone super rich to become railfans and help get the engine out of display purgatory? …Or at least help us and TVRM at Chattanooga?

Ike


On Apr 6, 2019, at 10:35 PM, Don Yelverton via Groups.Io <donyelverton@...> wrote:

Bill,
Good to hear from you.
What a backwards way to do things. It’s not that difficult to use the correct color temp lighting. You’d think they’d never lighted a display before. Wonder how many other items they’ve done like this? I’m sure it’s not the first time. Wonder what color the PS4 would using this methodology?
Don


On Apr 6, 2019, at 9:48 PM, Bill Schafer <bill4501@...> wrote:

Don:

I know the answer to the car color. The SRHA knows it’s wrong; the Smithsonian chose not to utilize the correct colors, saying that the authentic colors wouldn’t look “right” in the lighting that would be used where the car would be displayed. This information came directly to me from Bill Withuhn. 

Coupled with the apparent lack of luggage racks in the “colored” end of the car, it appears to me that the Smithsonian has not been very conscientious in portraying this car as it was in regular service.

—Bill

On Apr 6, 2019, at 8:45 PM, Don Yelverton via Groups.Io <donyelverton@...> wrote:

Ike,
Where did this car color come from?

Don

On Saturday, April 6, 2019, 07:35:17 PM EDT, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:


Charlie:

I helped do the research on that car in the SRHA archives before it went to the Smithsonian. Other than the fact that the toilets  at the ends of the car were slightly different sizes, we found NO differences between the “white" and “colored” sections of the car. It is unlikely the Southern would have been interested in creating any differences as the cars were not always in Jim Crow services and the Southern was very interested in providing good service to its “colored” passengers.

We provided quite a few drawings and specifications for the effort and only asked that SRHA be given appropriate credit in the display, I hope that is the case?

Ike


On Apr 6, 2019, at 7:23 PM, Charles Powell <charlesspowell@...> wrote:

A friend of mine sent me the link below to a short video from 2016 regarding the SOU 1200 coach that was placed in the Smithsonian. The video showed some short clips of the car's interior during the restoration. One of the issues they pointed out was that a difference between the "colored" section and the "white" section was that the colored section lacked luggage racks overhead. I was never on one of those cars during the Jim Crow era but did ride them in the 1960s after desegregation.  I remember the colored section had two small restrooms while the white section had two large ones and I can remember luggage racks but I can't recall if they were lacking in the colored section. The seats were the same throughout. I wonder if since the 1200 came from TVRM's storage yard if the luggage racks had been removed from one end in order to fix another car and the Smithsonian folks assumed that the car was always that way? I would have thought that even if the car lacked luggage racks on one end during the Jim Crow era, they would have been installed after desegregation when both sections of the car would have been used by anybody. 

Any thoughts anyone?
Charlie Powell 


https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.smithsonianmag.com%2Fsmithsonian-institution%2Fsegregated-railway-car-offers-visceral-reminder-jim-crow-era-180959383%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7Ca88c93999e5a4e55151e08d6b8873bec%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636899288289421094&sdata=UN1H%2FzQdXdup%2B5ixe1937%2BemrwZqsCIApgJbE6TtqsQ%3D&reserved=0



moderated Re: Jim Crow Coaches

Doug Alexander
 

It is my feeling that the Smithsonian is hung up on the Jim Crow South. The entire exhibit around 1401 is focused on those terrible times and their effect on American Blacks. The rest of the story about the role the railroads had in building this nation is effectively ignored, though it appears that there never was any kind of similar problems with motor cars. Of course, the exhibit is sponsored by General Motors.

moderated Re: Jim Crow Coaches

Ed Mims
 

Did the Southern paint it’s coaches a bright green? All that I saw were painted PULLMAN GREEN. None were the color of the car seen in the attached link which is close to being “Kelly” green. If this shade of green was used what was the time period? The color looks like it could be a primer.

Ed Mims 


On Apr 6, 2019, at 7:35 PM, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:

Charlie:

I helped do the research on that car in the SRHA archives before it went to the Smithsonian. Other than the fact that the toilets  at the ends of the car were slightly different sizes, we found NO differences between the “white" and “colored” sections of the car. It is unlikely the Southern would have been interested in creating any differences as the cars were not always in Jim Crow services and the Southern was very interested in providing good service to its “colored” passengers.

We provided quite a few drawings and specifications for the effort and only asked that SRHA be given appropriate credit in the display, I hope that is the case?

Ike


On Apr 6, 2019, at 7:23 PM, Charles Powell <charlesspowell@...> wrote:

A friend of mine sent me the link below to a short video from 2016 regarding the SOU 1200 coach that was placed in the Smithsonian. The video showed some short clips of the car's interior during the restoration. One of the issues they pointed out was that a difference between the "colored" section and the "white" section was that the colored section lacked luggage racks overhead. I was never on one of those cars during the Jim Crow era but did ride them in the 1960s after desegregation.  I remember the colored section had two small restrooms while the white section had two large ones and I can remember luggage racks but I can't recall if they were lacking in the colored section. The seats were the same throughout. I wonder if since the 1200 came from TVRM's storage yard if the luggage racks had been removed from one end in order to fix another car and the Smithsonian folks assumed that the car was always that way? I would have thought that even if the car lacked luggage racks on one end during the Jim Crow era, they would have been installed after desegregation when both sections of the car would have been used by anybody. 

Any thoughts anyone?
Charlie Powell 


https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.smithsonianmag.com%2Fsmithsonian-institution%2Fsegregated-railway-car-offers-visceral-reminder-jim-crow-era-180959383%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7Ca88c93999e5a4e55151e08d6b8873bec%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636899288289421094&sdata=UN1H%2FzQdXdup%2B5ixe1937%2BemrwZqsCIApgJbE6TtqsQ%3D&reserved=0

moderated Re: Jim Crow Coaches

George Eichelberger
 

We can dig through the specs on the rebuilds, or better yet ask George Walker at TVRM, but I prefer to say (maybe incorrectly) the passenger car color is "Southern" green rather than "Pullman". Very close but not exactly the same thing. Does anyone have specifc info?

moderated Re: Jim Crow Coaches

Jason Greene
 

You have the drift card in the archives for “Coach Greene” as the Southern called it. I believe in the passenger car files there is a reference to coach green and Pullman green being nearly the same. Southern did not paint the Pullmans, they were painted by Pullman in their shops. 
Find the Lake Pearl file and see if it was not painted coach green the last time it was painted. It was one of the few Pullmans that Southern kept in service after Pullman shut down their shops. 

Jason Greene 

On Apr 7, 2019, at 10:30 AM, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:

We can dig through the specs on the rebuilds, or better yet ask George Walker at TVRM, but I prefer to say (maybe incorrectly) the passenger car color is "Southern" green rather than "Pullman". Very close but not exactly the same thing. Does anyone have specifc info?