Date   
moderated Re: Jim Crow Coaches

George Eichelberger
 

I’ve attached a low res version of Southern drawing SP-6098 showing the floor plan of partitioned coaches 1200-1206. The variations in the lav. sizes are shown as are the luggage racks on both ends of the car. This drawing, among others, was provided before the car was “restored” for the Smithsonian. Written specifications also make it clear both ends of the car were equipped with luggage racks.

Our (SRHA’s) concern when we did the research was that people would seize on ANY difference in the car as “proof” the railroad wanted to discriminate between the races. I was unhappy with the restoration but what is left to say after the Smithsonian made such a mess out of the 1401!

We have a tremendous amount of Southern passenger car info in the SRHA archives. It is open to anyone that wants to do serious research on the Southern Railway. Everyone is invited to come to the archives grand opening on the Saturday of this year’s convention at Chattanooga. We would like to accomplish and finish many things before the opening but we need manpower and cash.

SRHA member or not…..please consider helping! Folks may also help TVRM acquire Southern diner 3307 from Amtrak. It will be used for food service on TVRM.

Ike




On Apr 6, 2019, at 8:45 PM, Don Yelverton via Groups.Io <donyelverton@...> wrote:

Ike,
Where did this car color come from?

Don

On Saturday, April 6, 2019, 07:35:17 PM EDT, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:


Charlie:

I helped do the research on that car in the SRHA archives before it went to the Smithsonian. Other than the fact that the toilets  at the ends of the car were slightly different sizes, we found NO differences between the “white" and “colored” sections of the car. It is unlikely the Southern would have been interested in creating any differences as the cars were not always in Jim Crow services and the Southern was very interested in providing good service to its “colored” passengers.

We provided quite a few drawings and specifications for the effort and only asked that SRHA be given appropriate credit in the display, I hope that is the case?

Ike


On Apr 6, 2019, at 7:23 PM, Charles Powell <charlesspowell@...> wrote:

A friend of mine sent me the link below to a short video from 2016 regarding the SOU 1200 coach that was placed in the Smithsonian. The video showed some short clips of the car's interior during the restoration. One of the issues they pointed out was that a difference between the "colored" section and the "white" section was that the colored section lacked luggage racks overhead. I was never on one of those cars during the Jim Crow era but did ride them in the 1960s after desegregation.  I remember the colored section had two small restrooms while the white section had two large ones and I can remember luggage racks but I can't recall if they were lacking in the colored section. The seats were the same throughout. I wonder if since the 1200 came from TVRM's storage yard if the luggage racks had been removed from one end in order to fix another car and the Smithsonian folks assumed that the car was always that way? I would have thought that even if the car lacked luggage racks on one end during the Jim Crow era, they would have been installed after desegregation when both sections of the car would have been used by anybody. 

Any thoughts anyone?
Charlie Powell 


https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.smithsonianmag.com%2Fsmithsonian-institution%2Fsegregated-railway-car-offers-visceral-reminder-jim-crow-era-180959383%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7Ca88c93999e5a4e55151e08d6b8873bec%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636899288289421094&sdata=UN1H%2FzQdXdup%2B5ixe1937%2BemrwZqsCIApgJbE6TtqsQ%3D&reserved=0


moderated Re: Jim Crow Coaches

Don Yelverton
 

Bill,
Good to hear from you.
What a backwards way to do things. It’s not that difficult to use the correct color temp lighting. You’d think they’d never lighted a display before. Wonder how many other items they’ve done like this? I’m sure it’s not the first time. Wonder what color the PS4 would using this methodology?
Don


On Apr 6, 2019, at 9:48 PM, Bill Schafer <bill4501@...> wrote:

Don:

I know the answer to the car color. The SRHA knows it’s wrong; the Smithsonian chose not to utilize the correct colors, saying that the authentic colors wouldn’t look “right” in the lighting that would be used where the car would be displayed. This information came directly to me from Bill Withuhn. 

Coupled with the apparent lack of luggage racks in the “colored” end of the car, it appears to me that the Smithsonian has not been very conscientious in portraying this car as it was in regular service.

—Bill

On Apr 6, 2019, at 8:45 PM, Don Yelverton via Groups.Io <donyelverton@...> wrote:

Ike,
Where did this car color come from?

Don

On Saturday, April 6, 2019, 07:35:17 PM EDT, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:


Charlie:

I helped do the research on that car in the SRHA archives before it went to the Smithsonian. Other than the fact that the toilets  at the ends of the car were slightly different sizes, we found NO differences between the “white" and “colored” sections of the car. It is unlikely the Southern would have been interested in creating any differences as the cars were not always in Jim Crow services and the Southern was very interested in providing good service to its “colored” passengers.

We provided quite a few drawings and specifications for the effort and only asked that SRHA be given appropriate credit in the display, I hope that is the case?

Ike


On Apr 6, 2019, at 7:23 PM, Charles Powell <charlesspowell@...> wrote:

A friend of mine sent me the link below to a short video from 2016 regarding the SOU 1200 coach that was placed in the Smithsonian. The video showed some short clips of the car's interior during the restoration. One of the issues they pointed out was that a difference between the "colored" section and the "white" section was that the colored section lacked luggage racks overhead. I was never on one of those cars during the Jim Crow era but did ride them in the 1960s after desegregation.  I remember the colored section had two small restrooms while the white section had two large ones and I can remember luggage racks but I can't recall if they were lacking in the colored section. The seats were the same throughout. I wonder if since the 1200 came from TVRM's storage yard if the luggage racks had been removed from one end in order to fix another car and the Smithsonian folks assumed that the car was always that way? I would have thought that even if the car lacked luggage racks on one end during the Jim Crow era, they would have been installed after desegregation when both sections of the car would have been used by anybody. 

Any thoughts anyone?
Charlie Powell 


https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.smithsonianmag.com%2Fsmithsonian-institution%2Fsegregated-railway-car-offers-visceral-reminder-jim-crow-era-180959383%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7Ca88c93999e5a4e55151e08d6b8873bec%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636899288289421094&sdata=UN1H%2FzQdXdup%2B5ixe1937%2BemrwZqsCIApgJbE6TtqsQ%3D&reserved=0


moderated Re: Jim Crow Coaches

George Eichelberger
 

We know that the Southern delivered 1401 shopped and painted. There is NO way the railroad would have done it any other way. Now…could we get someone super rich to become railfans and help get the engine out of display purgatory? …Or at least help us and TVRM at Chattanooga?

Ike


On Apr 6, 2019, at 10:35 PM, Don Yelverton via Groups.Io <donyelverton@...> wrote:

Bill,
Good to hear from you.
What a backwards way to do things. It’s not that difficult to use the correct color temp lighting. You’d think they’d never lighted a display before. Wonder how many other items they’ve done like this? I’m sure it’s not the first time. Wonder what color the PS4 would using this methodology?
Don


On Apr 6, 2019, at 9:48 PM, Bill Schafer <bill4501@...> wrote:

Don:

I know the answer to the car color. The SRHA knows it’s wrong; the Smithsonian chose not to utilize the correct colors, saying that the authentic colors wouldn’t look “right” in the lighting that would be used where the car would be displayed. This information came directly to me from Bill Withuhn. 

Coupled with the apparent lack of luggage racks in the “colored” end of the car, it appears to me that the Smithsonian has not been very conscientious in portraying this car as it was in regular service.

—Bill

On Apr 6, 2019, at 8:45 PM, Don Yelverton via Groups.Io <donyelverton@...> wrote:

Ike,
Where did this car color come from?

Don

On Saturday, April 6, 2019, 07:35:17 PM EDT, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:


Charlie:

I helped do the research on that car in the SRHA archives before it went to the Smithsonian. Other than the fact that the toilets  at the ends of the car were slightly different sizes, we found NO differences between the “white" and “colored” sections of the car. It is unlikely the Southern would have been interested in creating any differences as the cars were not always in Jim Crow services and the Southern was very interested in providing good service to its “colored” passengers.

We provided quite a few drawings and specifications for the effort and only asked that SRHA be given appropriate credit in the display, I hope that is the case?

Ike


On Apr 6, 2019, at 7:23 PM, Charles Powell <charlesspowell@...> wrote:

A friend of mine sent me the link below to a short video from 2016 regarding the SOU 1200 coach that was placed in the Smithsonian. The video showed some short clips of the car's interior during the restoration. One of the issues they pointed out was that a difference between the "colored" section and the "white" section was that the colored section lacked luggage racks overhead. I was never on one of those cars during the Jim Crow era but did ride them in the 1960s after desegregation.  I remember the colored section had two small restrooms while the white section had two large ones and I can remember luggage racks but I can't recall if they were lacking in the colored section. The seats were the same throughout. I wonder if since the 1200 came from TVRM's storage yard if the luggage racks had been removed from one end in order to fix another car and the Smithsonian folks assumed that the car was always that way? I would have thought that even if the car lacked luggage racks on one end during the Jim Crow era, they would have been installed after desegregation when both sections of the car would have been used by anybody. 

Any thoughts anyone?
Charlie Powell 


https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.smithsonianmag.com%2Fsmithsonian-institution%2Fsegregated-railway-car-offers-visceral-reminder-jim-crow-era-180959383%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7Ca88c93999e5a4e55151e08d6b8873bec%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636899288289421094&sdata=UN1H%2FzQdXdup%2B5ixe1937%2BemrwZqsCIApgJbE6TtqsQ%3D&reserved=0



moderated Re: Jim Crow Coaches

Doug Alexander
 

It is my feeling that the Smithsonian is hung up on the Jim Crow South. The entire exhibit around 1401 is focused on those terrible times and their effect on American Blacks. The rest of the story about the role the railroads had in building this nation is effectively ignored, though it appears that there never was any kind of similar problems with motor cars. Of course, the exhibit is sponsored by General Motors.

moderated Re: Jim Crow Coaches

Ed Mims
 

Did the Southern paint it’s coaches a bright green? All that I saw were painted PULLMAN GREEN. None were the color of the car seen in the attached link which is close to being “Kelly” green. If this shade of green was used what was the time period? The color looks like it could be a primer.

Ed Mims 


On Apr 6, 2019, at 7:35 PM, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:

Charlie:

I helped do the research on that car in the SRHA archives before it went to the Smithsonian. Other than the fact that the toilets  at the ends of the car were slightly different sizes, we found NO differences between the “white" and “colored” sections of the car. It is unlikely the Southern would have been interested in creating any differences as the cars were not always in Jim Crow services and the Southern was very interested in providing good service to its “colored” passengers.

We provided quite a few drawings and specifications for the effort and only asked that SRHA be given appropriate credit in the display, I hope that is the case?

Ike


On Apr 6, 2019, at 7:23 PM, Charles Powell <charlesspowell@...> wrote:

A friend of mine sent me the link below to a short video from 2016 regarding the SOU 1200 coach that was placed in the Smithsonian. The video showed some short clips of the car's interior during the restoration. One of the issues they pointed out was that a difference between the "colored" section and the "white" section was that the colored section lacked luggage racks overhead. I was never on one of those cars during the Jim Crow era but did ride them in the 1960s after desegregation.  I remember the colored section had two small restrooms while the white section had two large ones and I can remember luggage racks but I can't recall if they were lacking in the colored section. The seats were the same throughout. I wonder if since the 1200 came from TVRM's storage yard if the luggage racks had been removed from one end in order to fix another car and the Smithsonian folks assumed that the car was always that way? I would have thought that even if the car lacked luggage racks on one end during the Jim Crow era, they would have been installed after desegregation when both sections of the car would have been used by anybody. 

Any thoughts anyone?
Charlie Powell 


https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.smithsonianmag.com%2Fsmithsonian-institution%2Fsegregated-railway-car-offers-visceral-reminder-jim-crow-era-180959383%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7Ca88c93999e5a4e55151e08d6b8873bec%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636899288289421094&sdata=UN1H%2FzQdXdup%2B5ixe1937%2BemrwZqsCIApgJbE6TtqsQ%3D&reserved=0

moderated Re: Jim Crow Coaches

George Eichelberger
 

We can dig through the specs on the rebuilds, or better yet ask George Walker at TVRM, but I prefer to say (maybe incorrectly) the passenger car color is "Southern" green rather than "Pullman". Very close but not exactly the same thing. Does anyone have specifc info?

moderated Re: Jim Crow Coaches

Jason Greene
 

You have the drift card in the archives for “Coach Greene” as the Southern called it. I believe in the passenger car files there is a reference to coach green and Pullman green being nearly the same. Southern did not paint the Pullmans, they were painted by Pullman in their shops. 
Find the Lake Pearl file and see if it was not painted coach green the last time it was painted. It was one of the few Pullmans that Southern kept in service after Pullman shut down their shops. 

Jason Greene 

On Apr 7, 2019, at 10:30 AM, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:

We can dig through the specs on the rebuilds, or better yet ask George Walker at TVRM, but I prefer to say (maybe incorrectly) the passenger car color is "Southern" green rather than "Pullman". Very close but not exactly the same thing. Does anyone have specifc info?

moderated Re: Jim Crow Coaches

George Eichelberger
 

Jason is correct..we have the coach green drift card somewhere in the archives. Of course, everything is in a different place because of the move. Frank Greene contacted DuPont and got paint samples of various colors form them. The idea was to make SRHA drift cards. That’s another project someone is welcome to pick up.

The April archives work session is the 26th and 27th (more info on that shortly). I expect to also go up this week. If any of this week's days are better for anyone that wants to work in the archives. Send me an email and we’ll make a plan.

Ike

moderated Re: Jim Crow Coaches

O Fenton Wells
 

According to the car specs it was Pullman Green No.4.  Sides and roof.  
Also if you look at the Passenger Car Diagram Book, by Bill Schafer although the restrooms in the 1200 are not labeled colored or white on page 58 the PS Jim Crow cars from 1940, 900-905 inclusive, the large restrooms were labeled Colored.  Also on page 77 these partitioned cars, from 1934, also had the larger restrooms labeled colored. I doubt if SR had changed that designation when 1200 was rebuilt in the 1930.  Plus the Jim Crow cars were some of the first cars that SR AC'ed after the dining cars in the mid 1930"s.  I believe that the Smithsonian got it wrong.  
Fenton


On Sun, Apr 7, 2019 at 10:31 AM George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:
We can dig through the specs on the rebuilds, or better yet ask George Walker at TVRM, but I prefer to say (maybe incorrectly) the passenger car color is "Southern" green rather than "Pullman". Very close but not exactly the same thing. Does anyone have specifc info?



--
Fenton Wells
250 Frye Rd
Pinehurst NC 28374
910-420-8106
srrfan1401@...

moderated Re: Jim Crow Coaches

Doug Alexander
 

Ike,

I started a page on FB dedicated to that very proposition. It’s called “Fire Up 1401”.

Doug Alexander

Sent from my portable UNIVAC Computational Machine.

On Apr 6, 2019, at 10:46 PM, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:

We know that the Southern delivered 1401 shopped and painted. There is NO way the railroad would have done it any other way. Now…could we get someone super rich to become railfans and help get the engine out of display purgatory? …Or at least help us and TVRM at Chattanooga?

Ike


On Apr 6, 2019, at 10:35 PM, Don Yelverton via Groups.Io <donyelverton@...> wrote:

Bill,
Good to hear from you.
What a backwards way to do things. It’s not that difficult to use the correct color temp lighting. You’d think they’d never lighted a display before. Wonder how many other items they’ve done like this? I’m sure it’s not the first time. Wonder what color the PS4 would using this methodology?
Don


On Apr 6, 2019, at 9:48 PM, Bill Schafer <bill4501@...> wrote:

Don:

I know the answer to the car color. The SRHA knows it’s wrong; the Smithsonian chose not to utilize the correct colors, saying that the authentic colors wouldn’t look “right” in the lighting that would be used where the car would be displayed. This information came directly to me from Bill Withuhn. 

Coupled with the apparent lack of luggage racks in the “colored” end of the car, it appears to me that the Smithsonian has not been very conscientious in portraying this car as it was in regular service.

—Bill

On Apr 6, 2019, at 8:45 PM, Don Yelverton via Groups.Io <donyelverton@...> wrote:

Ike,
Where did this car color come from?

Don

On Saturday, April 6, 2019, 07:35:17 PM EDT, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:


Charlie:

I helped do the research on that car in the SRHA archives before it went to the Smithsonian. Other than the fact that the toilets  at the ends of the car were slightly different sizes, we found NO differences between the “white" and “colored” sections of the car. It is unlikely the Southern would have been interested in creating any differences as the cars were not always in Jim Crow services and the Southern was very interested in providing good service to its “colored” passengers.

We provided quite a few drawings and specifications for the effort and only asked that SRHA be given appropriate credit in the display, I hope that is the case?

Ike


On Apr 6, 2019, at 7:23 PM, Charles Powell <charlesspowell@...> wrote:

A friend of mine sent me the link below to a short video from 2016 regarding the SOU 1200 coach that was placed in the Smithsonian. The video showed some short clips of the car's interior during the restoration. One of the issues they pointed out was that a difference between the "colored" section and the "white" section was that the colored section lacked luggage racks overhead. I was never on one of those cars during the Jim Crow era but did ride them in the 1960s after desegregation.  I remember the colored section had two small restrooms while the white section had two large ones and I can remember luggage racks but I can't recall if they were lacking in the colored section. The seats were the same throughout. I wonder if since the 1200 came from TVRM's storage yard if the luggage racks had been removed from one end in order to fix another car and the Smithsonian folks assumed that the car was always that way? I would have thought that even if the car lacked luggage racks on one end during the Jim Crow era, they would have been installed after desegregation when both sections of the car would have been used by anybody. 

Any thoughts anyone?
Charlie Powell 


https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.smithsonianmag.com%2Fsmithsonian-institution%2Fsegregated-railway-car-offers-visceral-reminder-jim-crow-era-180959383%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7Ca88c93999e5a4e55151e08d6b8873bec%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636899288289421094&sdata=UN1H%2FzQdXdup%2B5ixe1937%2BemrwZqsCIApgJbE6TtqsQ%3D&reserved=0



moderated Re: Jim Crow Coaches

O Fenton Wells
 

For what it is worth I also find it interesting when looking at the SR Hayne Shop Partition Coach Interior Finish specs for color, materials and  fabric interior finishes, the railroad does not differentiate  by color, or finish or materials which restrooms or seating areas are for the different classes of passengers. Nothing I've read in the car files or the shop files makes one think that the SR was racist in any way.  If one did not know why a coach was called a Partition Coach the documents would never tell us.
Fenton


On Sun, Apr 7, 2019 at 12:21 PM Doug Alexander <doug_alexander@...> wrote:
Ike,

I started a page on FB dedicated to that very proposition. It’s called “Fire Up 1401”.

Doug Alexander

Sent from my portable UNIVAC Computational Machine.

On Apr 6, 2019, at 10:46 PM, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:

We know that the Southern delivered 1401 shopped and painted. There is NO way the railroad would have done it any other way. Now…could we get someone super rich to become railfans and help get the engine out of display purgatory? …Or at least help us and TVRM at Chattanooga?

Ike


On Apr 6, 2019, at 10:35 PM, Don Yelverton via Groups.Io <donyelverton@...> wrote:

Bill,
Good to hear from you.
What a backwards way to do things. It’s not that difficult to use the correct color temp lighting. You’d think they’d never lighted a display before. Wonder how many other items they’ve done like this? I’m sure it’s not the first time. Wonder what color the PS4 would using this methodology?
Don


On Apr 6, 2019, at 9:48 PM, Bill Schafer <bill4501@...> wrote:

Don:

I know the answer to the car color. The SRHA knows it’s wrong; the Smithsonian chose not to utilize the correct colors, saying that the authentic colors wouldn’t look “right” in the lighting that would be used where the car would be displayed. This information came directly to me from Bill Withuhn. 

Coupled with the apparent lack of luggage racks in the “colored” end of the car, it appears to me that the Smithsonian has not been very conscientious in portraying this car as it was in regular service.

—Bill

On Apr 6, 2019, at 8:45 PM, Don Yelverton via Groups.Io <donyelverton@...> wrote:

Ike,
Where did this car color come from?

Don

On Saturday, April 6, 2019, 07:35:17 PM EDT, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:


Charlie:

I helped do the research on that car in the SRHA archives before it went to the Smithsonian. Other than the fact that the toilets  at the ends of the car were slightly different sizes, we found NO differences between the “white" and “colored” sections of the car. It is unlikely the Southern would have been interested in creating any differences as the cars were not always in Jim Crow services and the Southern was very interested in providing good service to its “colored” passengers.

We provided quite a few drawings and specifications for the effort and only asked that SRHA be given appropriate credit in the display, I hope that is the case?

Ike


On Apr 6, 2019, at 7:23 PM, Charles Powell <charlesspowell@...> wrote:

A friend of mine sent me the link below to a short video from 2016 regarding the SOU 1200 coach that was placed in the Smithsonian. The video showed some short clips of the car's interior during the restoration. One of the issues they pointed out was that a difference between the "colored" section and the "white" section was that the colored section lacked luggage racks overhead. I was never on one of those cars during the Jim Crow era but did ride them in the 1960s after desegregation.  I remember the colored section had two small restrooms while the white section had two large ones and I can remember luggage racks but I can't recall if they were lacking in the colored section. The seats were the same throughout. I wonder if since the 1200 came from TVRM's storage yard if the luggage racks had been removed from one end in order to fix another car and the Smithsonian folks assumed that the car was always that way? I would have thought that even if the car lacked luggage racks on one end during the Jim Crow era, they would have been installed after desegregation when both sections of the car would have been used by anybody. 

Any thoughts anyone?
Charlie Powell 


https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.smithsonianmag.com%2Fsmithsonian-institution%2Fsegregated-railway-car-offers-visceral-reminder-jim-crow-era-180959383%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7Ca88c93999e5a4e55151e08d6b8873bec%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636899288289421094&sdata=UN1H%2FzQdXdup%2B5ixe1937%2BemrwZqsCIApgJbE6TtqsQ%3D&reserved=0





--
Fenton Wells
250 Frye Rd
Pinehurst NC 28374
910-420-8106
srrfan1401@...

moderated Re: Jim Crow Coaches

George Eichelberger
 

I agree with Fenton's comments 100%!

Every year, I get at least one letter, usually from someone that says they are working on a novel, asking about how the Southern dealt with race relations. It is never hard to "read between the lines" and see that the writer is only interested in "proving" a pre-conceived notion about the subject. If asked, I always mentioned the segregated area in dining cars and the fact that Pullmans were not segregated. I'm not sure anyone believed the latter.

A story I have told before is how the Southern Railway held up the construction of Washington Union Station because it did not have a washroom for its colored firemen. The Southern was the only railroad into DC with colored firemen so the PRR, RF&P and B&O simply did not care about it. The letter denying SR approval was not well received in Philadelphia and Baltimore but the Southern would not yield "they are members of the Southern family" and a colored washroom was added to the facilities at Ivy City. That attitude, written about 1902 remained Southern policy to the end of Jim Crow. (VA was the last state that effected SR passenger trains.)

Ike 

moderated Re: Jim Crow Coaches

Ed Mims
 

I fully agree with Fenton Wells also. Now, comes the question: who will set the experts at The Smithsonian straight?

Also, there is a copy cat in “The Georgia State Railroad Museum” in Savannah with a similar car in the same shade of green which they claim is one of only three “Jim Crow” cars still in existence.

Ed Mims


On Apr 7, 2019, at 1:42 PM, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:

I agree with Fenton's comments 100%!

Every year, I get at least one letter, usually from someone that says they are working on a novel, asking about how the Southern dealt with race relations. It is never hard to "read between the lines" and see that the writer is only interested in "proving" a pre-conceived notion about the subject. If asked, I always mentioned the segregated area in dining cars and the fact that Pullmans were not segregated. I'm not sure anyone believed the latter.

A story I have told before is how the Southern Railway held up the construction of Washington Union Station because it did not have a washroom for its colored firemen. The Southern was the only railroad into DC with colored firemen so the PRR, RF&P and B&O simply did not care about it. The letter denying SR approval was not well received in Philadelphia and Baltimore but the Southern would not yield "they are members of the Southern family" and a colored washroom was added to the facilities at Ivy City. That attitude, written about 1902 remained Southern policy to the end of Jim Crow. (VA was the last state that effected SR passenger trains.)

Ike 

moderated Re: Jim Crow Coaches

Ed Mims
 

I think Floquil had a color they called “Coach Green “ which is close to the color The Smithsonian used. They should know to check things like this.

Ed Mims


On Apr 7, 2019, at 11:22 AM, O Fenton Wells <srrfan1401@...> wrote:

According to the car specs it was Pullman Green No.4.  Sides and roof.  
Also if you look at the Passenger Car Diagram Book, by Bill Schafer although the restrooms in the 1200 are not labeled colored or white on page 58 the PS Jim Crow cars from 1940, 900-905 inclusive, the large restrooms were labeled Colored.  Also on page 77 these partitioned cars, from 1934, also had the larger restrooms labeled colored. I doubt if SR had changed that designation when 1200 was rebuilt in the 1930.  Plus the Jim Crow cars were some of the first cars that SR AC'ed after the dining cars in the mid 1930"s.  I believe that the Smithsonian got it wrong.  
Fenton

On Sun, Apr 7, 2019 at 10:31 AM George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:
We can dig through the specs on the rebuilds, or better yet ask George Walker at TVRM, but I prefer to say (maybe incorrectly) the passenger car color is "Southern" green rather than "Pullman". Very close but not exactly the same thing. Does anyone have specifc info?



--
Fenton Wells
250 Frye Rd
Pinehurst NC 28374
910-420-8106
srrfan1401@...

moderated Re: Jim Crow Coaches

George Eichelberger
 

Ed and everyone…..

Please run the link to Smithsonian.com at the beginning of this post and read what they say about the car…..

Total BS not worthy of them!

Ike


On Apr 7, 2019, at 3:44 PM, Ed Mims <wemims@...> wrote:

I think Floquil had a color they called “Coach Green “ which is close to the color The Smithsonian used. They should know to check things like this.

Ed Mims


On Apr 7, 2019, at 11:22 AM, O Fenton Wells <srrfan1401@...> wrote:

According to the car specs it was Pullman Green No.4.  Sides and roof.  
Also if you look at the Passenger Car Diagram Book, by Bill Schafer although the restrooms in the 1200 are not labeled colored or white on page 58 the PS Jim Crow cars from 1940, 900-905 inclusive, the large restrooms were labeled Colored.  Also on page 77 these partitioned cars, from 1934, also had the larger restrooms labeled colored. I doubt if SR had changed that designation when 1200 was rebuilt in the 1930.  Plus the Jim Crow cars were some of the first cars that SR AC'ed after the dining cars in the mid 1930"s.  I believe that the Smithsonian got it wrong.  
Fenton

On Sun, Apr 7, 2019 at 10:31 AM George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:
We can dig through the specs on the rebuilds, or better yet ask George Walker at TVRM, but I prefer to say (maybe incorrectly) the passenger car color is "Southern" green rather than "Pullman". Very close but not exactly the same thing. Does anyone have specifc info?




--
Fenton Wells
250 Frye Rd
Pinehurst NC 28374
910-420-8106
srrfan1401@...

moderated Re: Jim Crow Coaches

Ed Mims
 

The article about this car is a disgrace and something that an institution like the Smithsonian should be ashamed of. As Ike said it is pure BS. 

The history of Jim Crow Laws and the treatment of African Americans is not what is in question here.

Ed Mims


On Apr 7, 2019, at 4:23 PM, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:

Ed and everyone…..

Please run the link to Smithsonian.com at the beginning of this post and read what they say about the car…..

Total BS not worthy of them!

Ike


On Apr 7, 2019, at 3:44 PM, Ed Mims <wemims@...> wrote:

I think Floquil had a color they called “Coach Green “ which is close to the color The Smithsonian used. They should know to check things like this.

Ed Mims


On Apr 7, 2019, at 11:22 AM, O Fenton Wells <srrfan1401@...> wrote:

According to the car specs it was Pullman Green No.4.  Sides and roof.  
Also if you look at the Passenger Car Diagram Book, by Bill Schafer although the restrooms in the 1200 are not labeled colored or white on page 58 the PS Jim Crow cars from 1940, 900-905 inclusive, the large restrooms were labeled Colored.  Also on page 77 these partitioned cars, from 1934, also had the larger restrooms labeled colored. I doubt if SR had changed that designation when 1200 was rebuilt in the 1930.  Plus the Jim Crow cars were some of the first cars that SR AC'ed after the dining cars in the mid 1930"s.  I believe that the Smithsonian got it wrong.  
Fenton

On Sun, Apr 7, 2019 at 10:31 AM George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:
We can dig through the specs on the rebuilds, or better yet ask George Walker at TVRM, but I prefer to say (maybe incorrectly) the passenger car color is "Southern" green rather than "Pullman". Very close but not exactly the same thing. Does anyone have specifc info?




--
Fenton Wells
250 Frye Rd
Pinehurst NC 28374
910-420-8106
srrfan1401@...

moderated Re: Jim Crow Coaches

George Eichelberger
 

The description of the Jim Crow car is unacceptable! We have an entire file of hand written notes from Southern Conductors that were forced to move families as their trains entered or left Jim Crow states saying how wrong the practice was. Let set the stage circa 1960s…..”white” conductors saying Jim Crow laws were wrong that worked for a company with its charter in Richmond.

I told Bill Withun about the Union Station washrooms and showed him the notes from conductors. His response was to ask me to write an article for the Smithsonian Magazine because my description of the Southern Railway’s attitudes about race were probably not what people would expect. I told him as a “white guy” I was probably not the right person for such an article.

After knowing how much information the Smithsonian had from SRHA and then to read the crap on their web site about the car has to be dealt with…and will be!

Ike

On Apr 7, 2019, at 8:41 PM, Ed Mims <wemims@...> wrote:

The article about this car is a disgrace and something that an institution like the Smithsonian should be ashamed of. As Ike said it is pure BS. 

The history of Jim Crow Laws and the treatment of African Americans is not what is in question here.

Ed Mims


On Apr 7, 2019, at 4:23 PM, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:

Ed and everyone…..

Please run the link to Smithsonian.com at the beginning of this post and read what they say about the car…..

Total BS not worthy of them!

Ike


On Apr 7, 2019, at 3:44 PM, Ed Mims <wemims@...> wrote:

I think Floquil had a color they called “Coach Green “ which is close to the color The Smithsonian used. They should know to check things like this.

Ed Mims


On Apr 7, 2019, at 11:22 AM, O Fenton Wells <srrfan1401@...> wrote:

According to the car specs it was Pullman Green No.4.  Sides and roof.  
Also if you look at the Passenger Car Diagram Book, by Bill Schafer although the restrooms in the 1200 are not labeled colored or white on page 58 the PS Jim Crow cars from 1940, 900-905 inclusive, the large restrooms were labeled Colored.  Also on page 77 these partitioned cars, from 1934, also had the larger restrooms labeled colored. I doubt if SR had changed that designation when 1200 was rebuilt in the 1930.  Plus the Jim Crow cars were some of the first cars that SR AC'ed after the dining cars in the mid 1930"s.  I believe that the Smithsonian got it wrong.  
Fenton

On Sun, Apr 7, 2019 at 10:31 AM George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:
We can dig through the specs on the rebuilds, or better yet ask George Walker at TVRM, but I prefer to say (maybe incorrectly) the passenger car color is "Southern" green rather than "Pullman". Very close but not exactly the same thing. Does anyone have specifc info?




--
Fenton Wells
250 Frye Rd
Pinehurst NC 28374
910-420-8106
srrfan1401@...


moderated Re: Jim Crow Coaches

Charles Powell
 

Wow,
Doesn't look like the Southern folks were Final Four basketball fans! I posted Saturday evening and there were seven responses before midnight! Seriously, thank you to all especially the drawing from George. I am glad that my old feeble brain still functions, I was pretty certain I remembered those cars as having luggage racks throughout. It does disappoint me that the Smithsonian didn't do its homework, especially since SRHA offered their help. I am helping a writer friend who is writing a mystery novel that takes place in the 1940s. He had emailed me asking if passenger coaches had places for the passengers to store their luggage and before I saw his email, he had searched online on his own and came up with the video from the Smithsonian. I don't think his story line has anything to do with racial issues but I am going to be sure and let him know the facts. 
Thank you all again,
Charlie Powell   

moderated Re: Jim Crow Coaches

Bill Schafer
 

All:

I don’t know that anyone has done a definitive analysis of the varying shades of green utilized by the railroads in the first half of the 20th Century. The Pullman Company utilized a shade of green that they called “Pullman green”. It appeared to me to be something of an olive green. Some other railroads called their particular versions of green “Pullman green” although they didn’t match Pullman’s version of “Pullman green”.

One such railroad was the Southern. In this thread I have seen reference to “Southern coach green”. I have also seen reference elsewhere to a Southern Railway “Pullman green”. In my opinion, they are the same color. Southern green was NOT the same as what the Pullman Company painted their cars, even though Southern sometimes called their green “Pullman green” 

After the Pullman divestiture of the late-1940s, many railroads acquired heavyweight Pullmans and leased them back to the Pullman Company. These railroads, including Southern, painted the cars in their own colors. Southern’s cars were, if I remember correctly, painted Southern Pullman green (same as the coaches and head-end cars) if they said “Southern” in the middle of the letterboards. Once the Lake Pearl said “Southern” on its letter board, its color was Southern’s Pullman (or coach) green. 

If the ownership of a heavyweight sleeper was retained by Pullman (for special movements or troop mobilizations), and retained “Pullman” lettering in the middle of its letterboard, its color was Pullman “Pullman green” (i.e., olive) or two-tone gray.

The foregoing is what I believe to be true based on my personal experience, color photographs, and some documents I have seen over the years. If anyone has more specific information that corroborates or disproves my views, I’d be glad to see it.

—Bill Schafer


On Apr 7, 2019, at 9:22 PM, Charles Powell <charlesspowell@...> wrote:

Wow,
Doesn't look like the Southern folks were Final Four basketball fans! I posted Saturday evening and there were seven responses before midnight! Seriously, thank you to all especially the drawing from George. I am glad that my old feeble brain still functions, I was pretty certain I remembered those cars as having luggage racks throughout. It does disappoint me that the Smithsonian didn't do its homework, especially since SRHA offered their help. I am helping a writer friend who is writing a mystery novel that takes place in the 1940s. He had emailed me asking if passenger coaches had places for the passengers to store their luggage and before I saw his email, he had searched online on his own and came up with the video from the Smithsonian. I don't think his story line has anything to do with racial issues but I am going to be sure and let him know the facts. 
Thank you all again,
Charlie Powell   

moderated Jim Crow Coaches & 1401

Cohen Bob
 

On both of these topics:

On the coaches, I was told that the segregated section was "elastic" as the passenger loads varied. This I refer to from those coaches which did NOT have a hard barrier at the end of the Jim Crow portion. I don't know that SR had those or the ones with a curtain, but have been told they existed in the south.

Bill, Ike, care to comment and amplify?

Regarding 1401 being shopped in Alexandria: I was told by one of the metal workers/painters some 25+ years after the fact that it was restored cosmetically only, no boiler work, etc. These same men worked out at the National Capital Trolley Museum on one of their cars after an accident in 1987. Maybe the tender was fixed up as that would have relatively easy, but other than that, the cab, boiler jacket, etc. was made to look nice and pretty, and little else ................ or so I have been told. Remember that it came up dead-in-train, rods down and then sat out of doors from 1953 until it went to the Smithsonian in 1961 in its epic mile and a half 33 hour journey.

Thoughts, comments.

Bob Cohen