Date   
moderated What did Trains 60 and 61 do - 1970's?

Tim
 

I met Matt Bumbarner Saturday at the train show in Gastonia (and bought a signed C&NW book!). I meant to stop by and ask his this, but didn't manage to get back there.

60 and 61 were the local trains on Southern's S-line. 60 ran from Morganton to Spencer, and 61 the other way, six days a week. My model railroad layout (under construction) is set in 1974, a couple of years after the Southern built Oyama Yard and tore down the old C&NW shops in Hickory. 

My questions about these trains are as follows:
Did the crews run all the say through, or did they swap when the trains met, with the Morganton crew going back to Morganton and the Spencer crew returning to Spencer? What about the engines?

Did these trains work the industries in the Hickory area, of was that handled by a local switcher coming out of Oyama yard?

Did these trains drop and pick up cars at Oyama?

What did these trains do at Statesville? I'm pretty sure there was a local switcher there in 1974.

Finally, what questions am I not asking that I should be? :)

Thanks,
Tim Rumph
Lancaster, SC

moderated 1948 tt ... some answers, more questions

Jim King
 

Thanks to Mike Roderick, I have a 1948 and 1964 t/t to go with my 1970 and more recent copies.  I’m a little fuzzy on the code letters for each town’s name.  Can’t find a key to them anywhere in the 16 pages.  From memory, I know that W=water, Y=wye, C=coal and X=agent/operator.  There are also P, D and N.  What do these mean?  I’ve attached pages 8 and 9.  The “N” is next to Asheville and does not appear on the branch.  The “P” is at Murphy Jct only.  “D” appears in many towns.

 

For years, I’ve suspected that coal was available in Bryson because the distance between Nantahala and Balsam was too great and there was too much activity.  That’s what started this thread yesterday.  The tt seems to confirm my suspicion (“C” is to the right of the Bryson name) and that a turn was based out of Bryson (trains 66/67).  This turn was shortened to Sylva-Addie in the 60s until cancelled around 1972.  A Steve Patterson shot on RailPictures.net shows a 1966-ish Geep-powered local between Addie and Sylva with a long train of mostly boxcars.  There was a LOT of industry in that stretch in post-War years, primarily Mead Paper, furniture and lumber-related.  There was no water available between Bryson and Addie.  Question now is where was coal loaded in Bryson?  Did the coal trestle, thought to be “only” for the retail dealer, serve double duty?  It’s close to the track and parallel but it seems too low for shoveling.  It was also close to water, likely supplied by the town.

 

Canton’s coal supply was for the yard engine only, usually 599.  There was a small bin or shed next to the “sand house” and water standpipe located on the bank across from the station and below the bridge, according to the engineer I rode with.  The sand house was still there when I started visiting in 1977 and the floor was covered in sand, likely from spillage over the years.  There was no coal available for mainline trains, only water, located across the river (most tank footers still remain).

 

In addition to the Goose (trains 68/69), there was a turn that ran from Asheville to Balsam (tr 70/71, 6 days a week).  Nothing went “over the mountain” except the Goose because it needed 2 engines to get up the mountain.  I suspect the Bryson-Addie turn was a single 2-8-0 and based in Bryson where water, coal and wye were available.  This was the only activity on the line on Sunday, from what I can deduce.  Was the Balsam turn also a single 2-8-0 (underpowered to go to Addie and return with whatever the Bryson turn has set off for it)?  If so, did the Goose (tr 69) bring 71’s cars down the mountain to Addie and back up the mountain from Addie as Tr 68?  Forwarding cars to Balsam and leaving them makes no sense unless the thru train was forwarding them.  It’s also possible Tr 71 ran to Balsam to service the coaling ramp and turn on the wye since there was nowhere to turn around once it passed Canton.  There was no customer base between Hazelwood and Balsam.

 

I’m also “assuming” this tt was issued in July because the Murphy Branch passenger train had just been cancelled (only freights are listed on pages 8 and 9).

 

As usual, closely reading the tt “seems” to answer a few questions while generating even more.  Such is the process called “research”.

 

Jim King

www.smokymountainmodelworks.com

 


--
Jim King
www.smokymountainmodelworks.com

moderated Re: 1948 tt ... some answers, more questions

David Payne
 


N - Continuous train order office

D - Day (time) train order office

P - I'd have to look ... maybe Southern's "code" for "Part-time" ... i.e. two shifts, but not 24 hours

DPayne


In a message dated 6/10/2019 2:46:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, jimking3@... writes:

There are also P, D and N.  What do these mean?  I’ve attached pages 8 and 9.  The “N” is next to Asheville and does not appear on the branch.  The “P” is at Murphy Jct only.  “D” appears in many towns.

moderated Re: 1948 tt ... some answers, more questions

Robert Hanson
 

P = Passing track
D = Daytime train order office
N = Day and Night time train order office.

These are near-universal abbreviations.

Bob Hanson
Loganville, GA


-----Original Message-----
From: Jim King <jimking3@...>
To: main <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io>
Sent: Mon, Jun 10, 2019 2:46 pm
Subject: [SouthernRailway] 1948 tt ... some answers, more questions

Thanks to Mike Roderick, I have a 1948 and 1964 t/t to go with my 1970 and more recent copies.  I’m a little fuzzy on the code letters for each town’s name.  Can’t find a key to them anywhere in the 16 pages.  From memory, I know that W=water, Y=wye, C=coal and X=agent/operator.  There are also P, D and N.  What do these mean?  I’ve attached pages 8 and 9.  The “N” is next to Asheville and does not appear on the branch.  The “P” is at Murphy Jct only.  “D” appears in many towns.
 
For years, I’ve suspected that coal was available in Bryson because the distance between Nantahala and Balsam was too great and there was too much activity.  That’s what started this thread yesterday.  The tt seems to confirm my suspicion (“C” is to the right of the Bryson name) and that a turn was based out of Bryson (trains 66/67).  This turn was shortened to Sylva-Addie in the 60s until cancelled around 1972.  A Steve Patterson shot on RailPictures.net shows a 1966-ish Geep-powered local between Addie and Sylva with a long train of mostly boxcars.  There was a LOT of industry in that stretch in post-War years, primarily Mead Paper, furniture and lumber-related.  There was no water available between Bryson and Addie.  Question now is where was coal loaded in Bryson?  Did the coal trestle, thought to be “only” for the retail dealer, serve double duty?  It’s close to the track and parallel but it seems too low for shoveling.  It was also close to water, likely supplied by the town.
 
Canton’s coal supply was for the yard engine only, usually 599.  There was a small bin or shed next to the “sand house” and water standpipe located on the bank across from the station and below the bridge, according to the engineer I rode with.  The sand house was still there when I started visiting in 1977 and the floor was covered in sand, likely from spillage over the years.  There was no coal available for mainline trains, only water, located across the river (most tank footers still remain).
 
In addition to the Goose (trains 68/69), there was a turn that ran from Asheville to Balsam (tr 70/71, 6 days a week).  Nothing went “over the mountain” except the Goose because it needed 2 engines to get up the mountain.  I suspect the Bryson-Addie turn was a single 2-8-0 and based in Bryson where water, coal and wye were available.  This was the only activity on the line on Sunday, from what I can deduce.  Was the Balsam turn also a single 2-8-0 (underpowered to go to Addie and return with whatever the Bryson turn has set off for it)?  If so, did the Goose (tr 69) bring 71’s cars down the mountain to Addie and back up the mountain from Addie as Tr 68?  Forwarding cars to Balsam and leaving them makes no sense unless the thru train was forwarding them.  It’s also possible Tr 71 ran to Balsam to service the coaling ramp and turn on the wye since there was nowhere to turn around once it passed Canton.  There was no customer base between Hazelwood and Balsam.
 
I’m also “assuming” this tt was issued in July because the Murphy Branch passenger train had just been cancelled (only freights are listed on pages 8 and 9).
 
As usual, closely reading the tt “seems” to answer a few questions while generating even more.  Such is the process called “research”.
 
Jim King
 

--
Jim King
www.smokymountainmodelworks.com

moderated Re: 1948 tt ... some answers, more questions

Ron Stafford
 

P was the designation used for Telephone on the roads that I'm familiar with.

Ron Stafford


On 6/10/2019 3:05 PM, Robert Hanson via Groups.Io wrote:
P = Passing track
D = Daytime train order office
N = Day and Night time train order office.

These are near-universal abbreviations.

Bob Hanson
Loganville, GA


-----Original Message-----
From: Jim King <jimking3@...>
To: main <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io>
Sent: Mon, Jun 10, 2019 2:46 pm
Subject: [SouthernRailway] 1948 tt ... some answers, more questions

Thanks to Mike Roderick, I have a 1948 and 1964 t/t to go with my 1970 and more recent copies. ??I???m a little fuzzy on the code letters for each town???s name.?? Can???t find a key to them anywhere in the 16 pages.?? From memory, I know that W=water, Y=wye, C=coal and X=agent/operator.?? There are also P, D and N.?? What do these mean??? I???ve attached pages 8 and 9.?? The ???N??? is next to Asheville and does not appear on the branch.?? The ???P??? is at Murphy Jct only.?? ???D??? appears in many towns.
??
For years, I???ve suspected that coal was available in Bryson because the distance between Nantahala and Balsam was too great and there was too much activity.?? That???s what started this thread yesterday.?? The tt seems to confirm my suspicion (???C??? is to the right of the Bryson name) and that a turn was based out of Bryson (trains 66/67).?? This turn was shortened to Sylva-Addie in the 60s until cancelled around 1972.?? A Steve Patterson shot on RailPictures.net shows a 1966-ish Geep-powered local between Addie and Sylva with a long train of mostly boxcars.?? There was a LOT of industry in that stretch in post-War years, primarily Mead Paper, furniture and lumber-related.?? There was no water available between Bryson and Addie.?? Question now is where was coal loaded in Bryson??? Did the coal trestle, thought to be ???only??? for the retail dealer, serve double duty??? It???s close to the track and parallel but it seems too low for shoveling.?? It was also close to water, likely supplied by the town.
??
Canton???s coal supply was for the yard engine only, usually 599.?? There was a small bin or shed next to the ???sand house??? and water standpipe located on the bank across from the station and below the bridge, according to the engineer I rode with.?? The sand house was still there when I started visiting in 1977 and the floor was covered in sand, likely from spillage over the years.?? There was no coal available for mainline trains, only water, located across the river (most tank footers still remain).
??
In addition to the Goose (trains 68/69), there was a turn that ran from Asheville to Balsam (tr 70/71, 6 days a week).?? Nothing went ???over the mountain??? except the Goose because it needed 2 engines to get up the mountain.?? I suspect the Bryson-Addie turn was a single 2-8-0 and based in Bryson where water, coal and wye were available.?? This was the only activity on the line on Sunday, from what I can deduce.?? Was the Balsam turn also a single 2-8-0 (underpowered to go to Addie and return with whatever the Bryson turn has set off for it)??? If so, did the Goose (tr 69) bring 71???s cars down the mountain to Addie and back up the mountain from Addie as Tr 68??? Forwarding cars to Balsam and leaving them makes no sense unless the thru train was forwarding them.?? It???s also possible Tr 71 ran to Balsam to service the coaling ramp and turn on the wye since there was nowhere to turn around once it passed Canton.?? There was no customer base between Hazelwood and Balsam.
??
I???m also ???assuming??? this tt was issued in July because the Murphy Branch passenger train had just been cancelled (only freights are listed on pages 8 and 9).
??
As usual, closely reading the tt ???seems??? to answer a few questions while generating even more.?? Such is the process called ???research???.
??
Jim King
??

--
Jim King
www.smokymountainmodelworks.com

moderated Re: 1948 tt ... some answers, more questions

Carl Ardrey
 

image1.jpeg


On Jun 10, 2019, at 2:57 PM, Ron Stafford via Groups.Io <wag2200@...> wrote:

P was the designation used for Telephone on the roads that I'm familiar with.

Ron Stafford


On 6/10/2019 3:05 PM, Robert Hanson via Groups.Io wrote:
P = Passing track
D = Daytime train order office
N = Day and Night time train order office.

These are near-universal abbreviations.

Bob Hanson
Loganville, GA


-----Original Message-----
From: Jim King <jimking3@...>
To: main <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io>
Sent: Mon, Jun 10, 2019 2:46 pm
Subject: [SouthernRailway] 1948 tt ... some answers, more questions

Thanks to Mike Roderick, I have a 1948 and 1964 t/t to go with my 1970 and more recent copies. ??I???m a little fuzzy on the code letters for each town???s name.?? Can???t find a key to them anywhere in the 16 pages.?? From memory, I know that W=water, Y=wye, C=coal and X=agent/operator.?? There are also P, D and N.?? What do these mean??? I???ve attached pages 8 and 9.?? The ???N??? is next to Asheville and does not appear on the branch.?? The ???P??? is at Murphy Jct only.?? ???D??? appears in many towns.
??
For years, I???ve suspected that coal was available in Bryson because the distance between Nantahala and Balsam was too great and there was too much activity.?? That???s what started this thread yesterday.?? The tt seems to confirm my suspicion (???C??? is to the right of the Bryson name) and that a turn was based out of Bryson (trains 66/67).?? This turn was shortened to Sylva-Addie in the 60s until cancelled around 1972.?? A Steve Patterson shot on RailPictures.net shows a 1966-ish Geep-powered local between Addie and Sylva with a long train of mostly boxcars.?? There was a LOT of industry in that stretch in post-War years, primarily Mead Paper, furniture and lumber-related.?? There was no water available between Bryson and Addie.?? Question now is where was coal loaded in Bryson??? Did the coal trestle, thought to be ???only??? for the retail dealer, serve double duty??? It???s close to the track and parallel but it seems too low for shoveling.?? It was also close to water, likely supplied by the town.
??
Canton???s coal supply was for the yard engine only, usually 599.?? There was a small bin or shed next to the ???sand house??? and water standpipe located on the bank across from the station and below the bridge, according to the engineer I rode with.?? The sand house was still there when I started visiting in 1977 and the floor was covered in sand, likely from spillage over the years.?? There was no coal available for mainline trains, only water, located across the river (most tank footers still remain).
??
In addition to the Goose (trains 68/69), there was a turn that ran from Asheville to Balsam (tr 70/71, 6 days a week).?? Nothing went ???over the mountain??? except the Goose because it needed 2 engines to get up the mountain.?? I suspect the Bryson-Addie turn was a single 2-8-0 and based in Bryson where water, coal and wye were available.?? This was the only activity on the line on Sunday, from what I can deduce.?? Was the Balsam turn also a single 2-8-0 (underpowered to go to Addie and return with whatever the Bryson turn has set off for it)??? If so, did the Goose (tr 69) bring 71???s cars down the mountain to Addie and back up the mountain from Addie as Tr 68??? Forwarding cars to Balsam and leaving them makes no sense unless the thru train was forwarding them.?? It???s also possible Tr 71 ran to Balsam to service the coaling ramp and turn on the wye since there was nowhere to turn around once it passed Canton.?? There was no customer base between Hazelwood and Balsam.
??
I???m also ???assuming??? this tt was issued in July because the Murphy Branch passenger train had just been cancelled (only freights are listed on pages 8 and 9).
??
As usual, closely reading the tt ???seems??? to answer a few questions while generating even more.?? Such is the process called ???research???.
??
Jim King
??

--
Jim King
www.smokymountainmodelworks.com

moderated Re: Need scan of Murphy Branch timetable page

Jim King
 

Thanks, Ike.  Now this really opens up a can of worms.  Turntables at Addie, Bryson and Epps Springs (about 5 miles west of Bryson)?  I suspect the first 2 were replaced with wyes about in the same location.  According to "legend" and confirmed by the 1948 t/t, light 2-8-2s (4500-class, most likely) were allowed to Addie, which might explain why the Addie turntable (too short) was replaced with a wye.  However, the 1945 retirement date of Bryson's table seems strange.  Only 2-8-0s and 4-6-2s (maybe 4-6-0s) were allowed there so if a turntable that was in-service in 1920 it would have handled everything still operating in 1945.  Maybe it just worn out?  Epps Springs would have been underwater by 1948 as a result of the Fontana Dam track relocation.  Balsam's coaling station retirement in 1949 seems to indicate that steam was gone from the branch by then.  Anyway to confirm that?

Another eye-opener is the multitude of "Retired 1951" dates related to water tanks and, especially, 1946 for Canton's water tank.  August 1952 was that last active steam in Asheville but, it appears, the Branch has already dieselized.  The 1946 Canton date is confusing because there was only 1 tank that I know of (west side of Pigeon River) and steam was still running in 1946.  Could "retired" mean "replacement"?  There was a water pipe of some sort for the yard engine across from the station.

The Bryson coaling station was HUGE compared to the Balsam installation.  Now where was it?  This description rules out the current coal trestle as doing double-duty ... it was likely only for the retail coal dealer.  According to the ICC sheets, the water tank was at MP 64.1 and is shown on the valuation map.  MP 64.0 is between the main road crossing at that station and the coal trestle.  MP 64.3, where the coaling station is noted on the ICC blueprint, would be about where  the 2 tracks become 1 west of town.  There is a stub siding shown on the val map with a "tool house" notation.  Interesting.

Good stuff, thanks again, Ike.
--
Jim King
www.smokymountainmodelworks.com

moderated Re: 1948 tt ... some answers, more questions

Jim King
 

Thanks Carl and others.
--
Jim King
www.smokymountainmodelworks.com

moderated Re: Need scan of Murphy Branch timetable page

Jim King
 

As more pieces come together, it's interesting to note that the July 1948 t/t from Mike Roderick lists Bryson as having a coal station but the ICC valuation sheet above  shows it retired in 1945 along with the sand house and turntable.  I wish there was a milepost listed for the turntable to confirm or deny suspicion that it was located where wye was installed.  MP 64.3 (coaling station location) is 0.3 mile from "downtown" (station) and, when built in the teens (?) would have been open terrain.  This installation was likely of similar construction as the Balsam ramp, meaning Bryson's ramp (being MUCH bigger) required a long run to get up the ramp.  Not something that would fit closer to town, IMO.  Good grief, even MORE questions ... but we're getting closer to "an answer".
--
Jim King
www.smokymountainmodelworks.com

moderated Re: 1948 tt ... some answers, more questions

Robert Hanson
 

This question got my curiosity aroused.

I checked several rule books in my collection, and P is, indeed, the abbreviation that the Southern used for telephone.

On the ACL, SCL, A&WP/WofA/GaRR, and  P&N, "P" stood for Passing track.  On the FEC, it stood for "Water" (Freudian connection, there?), but then, the FEC was double tracked from end to end when the rule book I checked was published, and therefore had no passing tracks.   L&N and CofG made no mention of the abbreviation "P" in their rulebooks.

Apparently the abbreviation was not as universal as I thought.

Oh, well.  We live and learn.

Bob Hanson
Loganville, GA




-----Original Message-----
From: Ron Stafford via Groups.Io <wag2200@...>
To: main <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io>
Sent: Mon, Jun 10, 2019 3:57 pm
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] 1948 tt ... some answers, more questions

P was the designation used for Telephone on the roads that I'm familiar with.
Ron Stafford

On 6/10/2019 3:05 PM, Robert Hanson via Groups.Io wrote:
P = Passing track
D = Daytime train order office
N = Day and Night time train order office.

These are near-universal abbreviations.

Bob Hanson
Loganville, GA


-----Original Message-----
From: Jim King <jimking3@...>
To: main <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io>
Sent: Mon, Jun 10, 2019 2:46 pm
Subject: [SouthernRailway] 1948 tt ... some answers, more questions

Thanks to Mike Roderick, I have a 1948 and 1964 t/t to go with my 1970 and more recent copies. ??I???m a little fuzzy on the code letters for each town???s name.?? Can???t find a key to them anywhere in the 16 pages.?? From memory, I know that W=water, Y=wye, C=coal and X=agent/operator.?? There are also P, D and N.?? What do these mean??? I???ve attached pages 8 and 9.?? The ???N??? is next to Asheville and does not appear on the branch.?? The ???P??? is at Murphy Jct only.?? ???D??? appears in many towns.
??
For years, I???ve suspected that coal was available in Bryson because the distance between Nantahala and Balsam was too great and there was too much activity.?? That???s what started this thread yesterday.?? The tt seems to confirm my suspicion (???C??? is to the right of the Bryson name) and that a turn was based out of Bryson (trains 66/67).?? This turn was shortened to Sylva-Addie in the 60s until cancelled around 1972.?? A Steve Patterson shot on RailPictures.net shows a 1966-ish Geep-powered local between Addie and Sylva with a long train of mostly boxcars.?? There was a LOT of industry in that stretch in post-War years, primarily Mead Paper, furniture and lumber-related.?? There was no water available between Bryson and Addie.?? Question now is where was coal loaded in Bryson??? Did the coal trestle, thought to be ???only??? for the retail dealer, serve double duty??? It???s close to the track and parallel but it seems too low for shoveling.?? It was also close to water, likely supplied by the town.
??
Canton???s coal supply was for the yard engine only, usually 599.?? There was a small bin or shed next to the ???sand house??? and water standpipe located on the bank across from the station and below the bridge, according to the engineer I rode with.?? The sand house was still there when I started visiting in 1977 and the floor was covered in sand, likely from spillage over the years.?? There was no coal available for mainline trains, only water, located across the river (most tank footers still remain).
??
In addition to the Goose (trains 68/69), there was a turn that ran from Asheville to Balsam (tr 70/71, 6 days a week).?? Nothing went ???over the mountain??? except the Goose because it needed 2 engines to get up the mountain.?? I suspect the Bryson-Addie turn was a single 2-8-0 and based in Bryson where water, coal and wye were available.?? This was the only activity on the line on Sunday, from what I can deduce.?? Was the Balsam turn also a single 2-8-0 (underpowered to go to Addie and return with whatever the Bryson turn has set off for it)??? If so, did the Goose (tr 69) bring 71???s cars down the mountain to Addie and back up the mountain from Addie as Tr 68??? Forwarding cars to Balsam and leaving them makes no sense unless the thru train was forwarding them.?? It???s also possible Tr 71 ran to Balsam to service the coaling ramp and turn on the wye since there was nowhere to turn around once it passed Canton.?? There was no customer base between Hazelwood and Balsam.
??
I???m also ???assuming??? this tt was issued in July because the Murphy Branch passenger train had just been cancelled (only freights are listed on pages 8 and 9).
??
As usual, closely reading the tt ???seems??? to answer a few questions while generating even more.?? Such is the process called ???research???.
??
Jim King
??

--
Jim King
www.smokymountainmodelworks.com

moderated Re: Need scan of Murphy Branch timetable page

Michael Roderick
 

Jim:

My guess would be to try to get in touch with somebody from Swain County Court House that handles records and maps especially from the 30's to 40's. I will try to get with my parents to see if they know anybody there in Bryson.

Mike


From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io> on behalf of Jim King <jimking3@...>
Sent: Monday, June 10, 2019 16:41
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Need scan of Murphy Branch timetable page
 
As more pieces come together, it's interesting to note that the July 1948 t/t from Mike Roderick lists Bryson as having a coal station but the ICC valuation sheet above  shows it retired in 1945 along with the sand house and turntable.  I wish there was a milepost listed for the turntable to confirm or deny suspicion that it was located where wye was installed.  MP 64.3 (coaling station location) is 0.3 mile from "downtown" (station) and, when built in the teens (?) would have been open terrain.  This installation was likely of similar construction as the Balsam ramp, meaning Bryson's ramp (being MUCH bigger) required a long run to get up the ramp.  Not something that would fit closer to town, IMO.  Good grief, even MORE questions ... but we're getting closer to "an answer".
--
Jim King
www.smokymountainmodelworks.com

moderated Re: 1948 tt ... some answers, more questions

Ron Stafford
 

Add the SAL to the list of roads which also used 'P' for Telephone.

Ron


On 6/10/2019 4:45 PM, Robert Hanson via Groups.Io wrote:
This question got my curiosity aroused.

I checked several rule books in my collection, and P is, indeed, the abbreviation that the Southern used for telephone.

On the ACL, SCL, A&WP/WofA/GaRR, and?? P&N, "P" stood for Passing track.?? On the FEC, it stood for "Water" (Freudian connection, there?), but then, the FEC was double tracked from end to end when the rule book I checked was published, and therefore had no passing tracks.?? ??L&N and CofG made no mention of the abbreviation "P" in their rulebooks.

Apparently the abbreviation was not as universal as I thought.

Oh, well.?? We live and learn.

Bob Hanson
Loganville, GA




-----Original Message-----
From: Ron Stafford via Groups.Io <wag2200@...>
To: main <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io>
Sent: Mon, Jun 10, 2019 3:57 pm
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] 1948 tt ... some answers, more questions

P was the designation used for Telephone on the roads that I'm familiar with.
Ron Stafford

On 6/10/2019 3:05 PM, Robert Hanson via Groups.Io wrote:
P = Passing track
D = Daytime train order office
N = Day and Night time train order office.

These are near-universal abbreviations.

Bob Hanson
Loganville, GA


-----Original Message-----
From: Jim King <jimking3@...>
To: main <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io>
Sent: Mon, Jun 10, 2019 2:46 pm
Subject: [SouthernRailway] 1948 tt ... some answers, more questions

Thanks to Mike Roderick, I have a 1948 and 1964 t/t to go with my 1970 and more recent copies. ??I???m a little fuzzy on the code letters for each town???s name.?? Can???t find a key to them anywhere in the 16 pages.?? From memory, I know that W=water, Y=wye, C=coal and X=agent/operator.?? There are also P, D and N.?? What do these mean??? I???ve attached pages 8 and 9.?? The ???N??? is next to Asheville and does not appear on the branch.?? The ???P??? is at Murphy Jct only.?? ???D??? appears in many towns.
??
For years, I???ve suspected that coal was available in Bryson because the distance between Nantahala and Balsam was too great and there was too much activity.?? That???s what started this thread yesterday.?? The tt seems to confirm my suspicion (???C??? is to the right of the Bryson name) and that a turn was based out of Bryson (trains 66/67).?? This turn was shortened to Sylva-Addie in the 60s until cancelled around 1972.?? A Steve Patterson shot on RailPictures.net shows a 1966-ish Geep-powered local between Addie and Sylva with a long train of mostly boxcars.?? There was a LOT of industry in that stretch in post-War years, primarily Mead Paper, furniture and lumber-related.?? There was no water available between Bryson and Addie.?? Question now is where was coal loaded in Bryson??? Did the coal trestle, thought to be ???only??? for the retail dealer, serve double duty??? It???s close to the track and parallel but it seems too low for shoveling.?? It was also close to water, likely supplied by the town.
??
Canton???s coal supply was for the yard engine only, usually 599.?? There was a small bin or shed next to the ???sand house??? and water standpipe located on the bank across from the station and below the bridge, according to the engineer I rode with.?? The sand house was still there when I started visiting in 1977 and the floor was covered in sand, likely from spillage over the years.?? There was no coal available for mainline trains, only water, located across the river (most tank footers still remain).
??
In addition to the Goose (trains 68/69), there was a turn that ran from Asheville to Balsam (tr 70/71, 6 days a week).?? Nothing went ???over the mountain??? except the Goose because it needed 2 engines to get up the mountain.?? I suspect the Bryson-Addie turn was a single 2-8-0 and based in Bryson where water, coal and wye were available.?? This was the only activity on the line on Sunday, from what I can deduce.?? Was the Balsam turn also a single 2-8-0 (underpowered to go to Addie and return with whatever the Bryson turn has set off for it)??? If so, did the Goose (tr 69) bring 71???s cars down the mountain to Addie and back up the mountain from Addie as Tr 68??? Forwarding cars to Balsam and leaving them makes no sense unless the thru train was forwarding them.?? It???s also possible Tr 71 ran to Balsam to service the coaling ramp and turn on the wye since there was nowhere to turn around once it passed Canton.?? There was no customer base between Hazelwood and Balsam.
??
I???m also ???assuming??? this tt was issued in July because the Murphy Branch passenger train had just been cancelled (only freights are listed on pages 8 and 9).
??
As usual, closely reading the tt ???seems??? to answer a few questions while generating even more.?? Such is the process called ???research???.
??
Jim King
??

--
Jim King
www.smokymountainmodelworks.com


moderated Re: Need scan of Murphy Branch timetable page

mike turner
 

Jim,

Name something non-trivial the more you knew about it, the less questions you had.

That's how the universe works!

Then again, maybe that's just me. :)

Anyway, good fascinating discussion.

On 6/10/2019 4:41 PM, Jim King wrote:
  Good grief, even MORE questions ... but we're getting closer to "an answer".
--
Jim King
www.smokymountainmodelworks.com--
Mike Turner
MP-Z35

moderated TT codes

milepost 131 <mp131.ghandrews@...>
 

I found a copy of a SRY TT that Marvin Black copied and  sent me probably early 2000's.

It does not mention the year but as I recall Marvin stated it was in the 1940's

It has a few codes:

I can probably scan it into a PDF if anyone is interested.
A few codes include:
G Coaling station  (chute bin,platform tipple)
H stock pen
K turntable
P hospital at that location
R engines are coaled from cars at the location
Y "Y" track at location

E water
D passenger trains stop at flag


Gordon Andrews

moderated Re: TT codes

Michael Roderick
 

Gordon: 

Good evening how are you doing? Jim King has sparked interest in the Branch again. If you have a copy of the TT I would appreciate a copy of it, I sent Jim a copy of the 1946 one if your copy is prior to that date I would like to have a copy of it. As for other interesting things I have found out about the branch in the 1920's there was a 3' gauge railroad that ran from Bryson to Alarka it was 10 miles long hauling logs to be milled and the was a line that ran somewhere between Whitter and Governors Island to Cherokee and past it was about 15 miles long.

Mike


From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io> on behalf of milepost 131 <mp131.ghandrews@...>
Sent: Monday, June 10, 2019 18:05
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io
Subject: [SouthernRailway] TT codes
 
I found a copy of a SRY TT that Marvin Black copied and  sent me probably early 2000's.

It does not mention the year but as I recall Marvin stated it was in the 1940's

It has a few codes:

I can probably scan it into a PDF if anyone is interested.
A few codes include:
G Coaling station  (chute bin,platform tipple)
H stock pen
K turntable
P hospital at that location
R engines are coaled from cars at the location
Y "Y" track at location

E water
D passenger trains stop at flag


Gordon Andrews

moderated Re: Need scan of Murphy Branch timetable page

George Eichelberger
 

Jim:

You are certainly making good use of the material! Keep it up!

I would like for us to be able to organize a comprehensive study of various items in the SRHA archives. A point I have been explaining to people is that there are several completely different types of records and documents that may contain data about the same subject or loaction. For example, the Presidents’ files may include information, and authorization for AFEs (Authorization for Expenditure) that explain/justify the monies requested, the ICC reports from 1916 into the 60s give us very detailed costs and dates. And, we are very fortunate to have the Ben Roberts/Oscar Kimsey/Frank Ardrey collections of depot photos. Ben and Oscar obtained many photos taken with the ICC study and there are more in the ICC Field Notes we have.

Re: Turntables….

Researching the SRHA SR diesel book (a abridged portion of the FT introduction is in the TIES now at the printer), I found a reason so many turntables were removed at about the same time in the early 1950s.

GP-7s were marketed by EMD, and purchased by the Southern, for use on secondary passenger trains. As delivered they were NOT equipped for single engine bi-directional operation. When a passenger train reached the end of its run, on a line like the Murphy Branch, the engine used a turntable for the return trip. The problem was, turning a loco that way required a hostler per the union agreements. That led to turntables being replaced by wyes so the road crew could turn the locos.

To avoid even that process, and both wyes and turntables, the Southern asked EMD and Alco to rearrange the control stands, seats, deadman’s pedals, etc on GP-7 and RS-2 orders to permit bi-directional operation. A GP and RS were equipped and tested per the Southern design. All subsequent GP and RS orders were built per SR specs (cost was approx. $650).

The strategy was a complete success, so much so. As the bi-directional engines were introduced on different operating divisions turntables and wyes were removed as quickly as possible. Richmond was the first such division. Only bi-directional units were allowed and were to be kept on that division. Knowing this, we see a pattern, dieselization, removal of coal and water facilities, assignment of bi-directional diesels, then removal of turntables and wyes.

One more thing….
There is a letter in the archives from the B&O that starts something like “we understand the Southern has modified GPs and RS units to permit bi-directional operation”. The Southern responded with a full set of drawings. By that time the B&O had many units in service, and there is no response in the archives so we do not know if any of that road’s engines were modified.

Ike


On Jun 10, 2019, at 4:29 PM, Jim King <jimking3@...> wrote:

Thanks, Ike.  Now this really opens up a can of worms.  Turntables at Addie, Bryson and Epps Springs (about 5 miles west of Bryson)?  I suspect the first 2 were replaced with wyes about in the same location.  According to "legend" and confirmed by the 1948 t/t, light 2-8-2s (4500-class, most likely) were allowed to Addie, which might explain why the Addie turntable (too short) was replaced with a wye.  However, the 1945 retirement date of Bryson's table seems strange.  Only 2-8-0s and 4-6-2s (maybe 4-6-0s) were allowed there so if a turntable that was in-service in 1920 it would have handled everything still operating in 1945.  Maybe it just worn out?  Epps Springs would have been underwater by 1948 as a result of the Fontana Dam track relocation.  Balsam's coaling station retirement in 1949 seems to indicate that steam was gone from the branch by then.  Anyway to confirm that?

Another eye-opener is the multitude of "Retired 1951" dates related to water tanks and, especially, 1946 for Canton's water tank.  August 1952 was that last active steam in Asheville but, it appears, the Branch has already dieselized.  The 1946 Canton date is confusing because there was only 1 tank that I know of (west side of Pigeon River) and steam was still running in 1946.  Could "retired" mean "replacement"?  There was a water pipe of some sort for the yard engine across from the station.

The Bryson coaling station was HUGE compared to the Balsam installation.  Now where was it?  This description rules out the current coal trestle as doing double-duty ... it was likely only for the retail coal dealer.  According to the ICC sheets, the water tank was at MP 64.1 and is shown on the valuation map.  MP 64.0 is between the main road crossing at that station and the coal trestle.  MP 64.3, where the coaling station is noted on the ICC blueprint, would be about where  the 2 tracks become 1 west of town.  There is a stub siding shown on the val map with a "tool house" notation.  Interesting.

Good stuff, thanks again, Ike.
--
Jim King
www.smokymountainmodelworks.com

moderated Murphy Branch HO trackplan

Jim King
 

I’m not sure if this is the appropriate group for model-related discussions so I’m giving it a shot until told otherwise.  The reason for my recent inquiries regarding coal and water locations is that I’m trying to refine an HO trackplan that Dan Bourque (Appalachian Modeling web site) designed to fit my 13x13 room.  While compact, it includes several scenes from Bryson to Addie with a return loop on each end and was designed for a circa 1968-72 Southern operation.  Attached is the plan.  Ignore the floor heights … I can guarantee you that the Asheville staging loops will NOT be 77” off the floor!  The plan doesn’t have great resolution and I can’t get better.  I am going to redraw it and can post the revised version when done if there is interest.

 

Here’s the kicker.  For those of you who have Southern employment or family connections and had to survive the 1982 “N&W takeover”, you might not want to read further!  I really like Dan’s plan.  I’m intimately familiar with all of the scenes he depicts.  But I haven’t modeled the Southern for many years.  What to do?  I’m changing the primary industries from wood/paper related to coal and moving the era to the late 50s N&W.  Operations will be similar to the Southern in the 1948 t/t but with more passenger and off-layout interchange traffic (CRR and L&N coal, ala Norton Branch).  Curve radii will be widened but the overall gist of the scenes will remain.  An additional 16-ft long yard/staging where all tracks funnel to a 130-ft turntable will be added in an adjacent room and connected to the Addie loop.  Being able to change consists without stooping under the layout (Murphy) or standing on a stool to reach Asheville is key.  Only made-up trains will reside in these loops.

 

While this seems like heresy to purists, my family connection (dating to the 1940s) and personal interest in the N&W is too strong to ignore.  I was modeling N&W diesels in my teen years.  If Southern ran steam as long as the N&W did, I may reconsider.  The amount of good quality HO RTR diesels, steam and cars plus a decent supply of affordable brass steam have made it possible for me to model an N&W-themed layout in a small space.  Sure, big Mallets don’t like tight curves but with some creative planning, larger radii curves and scenery view-blocks to hide extreme boiler overhang is doable in a smaller space.

 

Now you can throw stones and ban me from the list if you wish (I hope you don’t!).

 

Jim King

www.smokymountainmodelworks.com

 


--
Jim King
www.smokymountainmodelworks.com

moderated Southern and Southwestern Railway Club

Charles Harris
 

I am not sure if my subject is directly related to this group but would like to be in contact with the above group re historical information from 1946 and there Volume 34 or
35.      It is re the demo of Ingalls 4-S  at Terminal Station Track 13 in Atlanta GA on 21 st March, 1946.  Shown to Southern, L&N, GM&O, and Seaboard.   Ref is    The Atlanta Constitution newspaper of 21st March 1946, page 14.

Has anyone have any contact details or able to assist in any way ?

Thankyou

Charles Harris

moderated Re: Southern and Southwestern Railway Club

Ed Mims
 

I’m pretty certain that the Southern and Southwestern Railway  Club became inactive many years ago. In its last years N&W and Southern (and NS) would not support it. This spread to the other southeastern roads and it folded. I have no idea what might have happened to the records. The club secretary was from the N&W. He would be the most likely one to have the records if he is still alive. His sir name was Mastrangelo. He was from Roanoke and moved to Norfolk after the NS merger. Perhaps someone on this list knows him. I believe he would now be in his 80s if still alive.

 

You might check with the N&W HS to see if they have the meeting minutes.

 

Ed Mims

 

From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io [mailto:main@SouthernRailway.groups.io] On Behalf Of Charles Harris
Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2019 12:09 AM
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io
Subject: [SouthernRailway] Southern and Southwestern Railway Club

 

I am not sure if my subject is directly related to this group but would like to be in contact with the above group re historical information from 1946 and there Volume 34 or
35.      It is re the demo of Ingalls 4-S  at Terminal Station Track 13 in Atlanta GA on 21 st March, 1946.  Shown to Southern, L&N, GM&O, and Seaboard.   Ref is    The Atlanta Constitution newspaper of 21st March 1946, page 14.

Has anyone have any contact details or able to assist in any way ?

Thankyou

Charles Harris

moderated Re: Southern and Southwestern Railway Club

Robert Hanson
 

The Atlanta Constitution is now the Atlanta Journal-Constitution.

Try reaching them at ajc.com/contacts.  This will give you a list of contacts and their e-mail addresses.

Or you can phone them at 404-526-7003.

Hope this helps.

Bob Hanson
Loganville, GA


-----Original Message-----
From: Charles Harris <railroads@...>
To: main <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io>
Sent: Tue, Jun 11, 2019 12:09 am
Subject: [SouthernRailway] Southern and Southwestern Railway Club

I am not sure if my subject is directly related to this group but would like to be in contact with the above group re historical information from 1946 and there Volume 34 or
35.      It is re the demo of Ingalls 4-S  at Terminal Station Track 13 in Atlanta GA on 21 st March, 1946.  Shown to Southern, L&N, GM&O, and Seaboard.   Ref is    The Atlanta Constitution newspaper of 21st March 1946, page 14.

Has anyone have any contact details or able to assist in any way ?

Thankyou

Charles Harris