Date   
moderated Re: Southern Passenger Trains on the NE Corridor in 1968

Bill Schafer
 

That’s generally what happened - adding/subtracting cars for locals to use on the NEC between Washington and New York - to the secondary trains from the south, mentioned by Michael Young. You experienced, Tim, a longtime practice from the dark ages. In fact, except for the Florida streamliners and the Southerner and Crescent, most trains carrying through cars from the south were usually combined with regularly scheduled PRR trains anyway so that if a northbound train was late, the connection could leave on time, serving the local market, while the cars from the south could be added to the next train. Southern’s practice was to favor the Pullman passengers with through cars, while coach passengers (except those in reserved seats on the Southerner) were obliged to get off in Washington and reboard a PRR coach for the remainder of the trip to NYC.

—Bill

On Feb 3, 2020, at 10:40 AM, Tim <tarumph@...> wrote:

My recent experience on the Palmetto and the Carolinian on the NE corridor was that there were several cars on the head end on the southbound trains for local traffic, with through passenger being seated behind these cars. The "short" cars were pulled off with the engine in Washington.

Tim Rumph
Lancaster, SC

moderated Re: Lcal passenger trains on the Southern 7-8-1941

George Eichelberger
 

The Florida Sunbeam, and all other “seasonal and excursion” trains were prohibited by the Office of Defense Transportation (ODT) about the time of the memos. As an upcoming TIES article on the Sunbeam mentions, the first postwar Sunbeam was Dec 7th, 1946. The Southern marketing people wanted to get the train back in operation because the IC, C&EI and PRR announced they would restore the seasonal “Sunchaser”, “Jacksonian” and “Dixieland” to Florida for the ’46 season.

There are quite a few “ODT” files in the SRHA and National archives. The subject certainly warrants some serious research and publication.

The reduction in Florida services came at the same time many new Army bases and Naval Air stations were being built there to take advantage of the weather. Virtually all of the major airports in Florida today began as WWII training or anti-submarine bases. Many much smaller towns have airport facilities today built at that time. The race track at Sebring and the runways in my home town of Venice, Fla were built as bomber (usually B-25s) training bases.

Ike 

 

On Feb 3, 2020, at 12:02 PM, Bill Schafer <bill4501@...> wrote:

Interesting reading. If anybody doubted that the U.S. was gearing up for war before Pearl Harbor, this memo should put those doubts to rest. 

The memo came from “H A D”, Harry A. DeButts, at the time VP-Operations; he was writing to S. R. Prince, SOU’s General Counsel and the guy in charge of filing for discontinuance of passenger trains across the system. The “Copy to Mr. Norris” was of course to Ernest E. Norris, SOU’s President.

Attached, for contrast, are two pages from the January 1941 Official Guide. One lists all the U.S. military posts and bases served by Southern Railway System; the other is a “business as usual” ad for the seasonal Florida Sunbeam, 1940-41 season version.

—Bill




On Feb 3, 2020, at 9:51 AM, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:

From the SRHA archives.....probably not seen since 1941....

Two addl items....

The next SRHA work session will be Friday and Saturday, Feb 14 & 15. There are several projects underway and some new ones we can begin if we have help.

Norfolk Southern official car 8 arrived in Chattanooga, was set on trucks and moved to Soule Shop at E. Chattanooga. The car is is remarkably good condition, TVRM may be able to have it in service late this year. As always, donors and volunteers are needed to complete the work. We'll stop by the car on one of our lunch breaks.

Ike
<1941-7-8 Disc local pass trains Pg 1.jpg><1941-7-8 Pg 2.jpg><1941-7-8 Pg 3.jpg><1941-7-8 Pg 4.jpg>

<List of U.S. Military Posts on SOU System - from Jan 1941 Official Guide.pdf><Ad for SOU Florida Sunbeam in Jan 1941 Official Guide.pdf>

moderated Re: Southern Passenger Trains on the NE Corridor in 1968

George Eichelberger
 

As the “Southerner” began service, the Southern asked the PRR to run it as a separate train from DC to NYC. The PRR responded with (to paraphrase) “are you nuts? It’s 1941with a war in Europe, we cannot tie up the PRR main line and a GG-1 for a SEVEN car train!”

After several “testy” letters back and forth the PRR offered to run a Southerner-only train for one week for publicity photos. There is evidence the Southerner ran north of DC as a seven car train only once.

Ike


On Feb 3, 2020, at 12:12 PM, Bill Schafer <bill4501@...> wrote:

That’s generally what happened - adding/subtracting cars for locals to use on the NEC between Washington and New York - to the secondary trains from the south, mentioned by Michael Young. You experienced, Tim, a longtime practice from the dark ages. In fact, except for the Florida streamliners and the Southerner and Crescent, most trains carrying through cars from the south were usually combined with regularly scheduled PRR trains anyway so that if a northbound train was late, the connection could leave on time, serving the local market, while the cars from the south could be added to the next train. Southern’s practice was to favor the Pullman passengers with through cars, while coach passengers (except those in reserved seats on the Southerner) were obliged to get off in Washington and reboard a PRR coach for the remainder of the trip to NYC.

—Bill

On Feb 3, 2020, at 10:40 AM, Tim <tarumph@...> wrote:

My recent experience on the Palmetto and the Carolinian on the NE corridor was that there were several cars on the head end on the southbound trains for local traffic, with through passenger being seated behind these cars. The "short" cars were pulled off with the engine in Washington.

Tim Rumph
Lancaster, SC


moderated Re: Lcal passenger trains on the Southern 7-8-1941

sgwarner88@...
 

Ike, you are correct in that most of today's airfields in the South were built as AAF training fields, mainly due to the newly year-round good flying weather. Also, in south Ga. as well as Fla. in my time flying and training SAR ops in Ga., I flew over or into many of these fields. Cordele, Tifton, Valdosta, and Brunswick come to mind.  Today's remaining fields still show their heritage.  From above, one could see the triangle of runways, allowing into-the wind ops in to/any direction. Of course, they are now a single runway operation today, with the other two closed and overgrown.

Stephen

moderated Re: Lcal passenger trains on the Southern 7-8-1941

Marv Clemons
 

Fascinating reading, Ike. I had no idea Southern axed so many passenger locals just to free up equipment for the pending war effort.

Thanks for digging out and sharing such jewels from the archive, and for all you do for SRHA..

Marv Clemons

moderated Re: Lcal passenger trains on the Southern 7-8-1941

Marv Clemons
 

I should add that due to the preponderance of posts, camps and stations in and around Alabama, Birmingham Terminal Station was a hub for troop movements during World War II. 

I have records showing an average of 85 daily movements through the station in 1942 handling a peak of 50,000+ passengers, of which the majority were soldiers on furlough or family members making trips to camps.

Southern trains for New Orleans routinely departed Terminal Station with 1200 passengers, compared to a pre-war peak loading of 775 on holiday excursions. 

I worked the operator-towerman job at Terminal Station in the mid-1960s and thought we were busy with 26 daily arrivals and departures.  I can't imagine handling 3 times that many trains with all of the switching moves, plus mail and express.  Now that was big-time railroading!

Marv

moderated Re: Lcal passenger trains on the Southern 7-8-1941

George Eichelberger
 

In case anyone is not aware, Marvin and Lyle Key were authors of THE two books on the railroads of Birmingham. “Birmingham Rails” covers the freight and passenger services of the Class 1 railroads in the city as well as extensive industrial operations in the area. “The Great Temple of Travel” provides a history of Birmingham Terminal Station, 1909-1969.

Both belong on the bookshelves of anyone interested in railroading in the South.

Ike
'

On Feb 4, 2020, at 7:21 PM, Marv Clemons <mclemonsjr@...> wrote:

I should add that due to the preponderance of posts, camps and stations in and around Alabama, Birmingham Terminal Station was a hub for troop movements during World War II. 

I have records showing an average of 85 daily movements through the station in 1942 handling a peak of 50,000+ passengers, of which the majority were soldiers on furlough or family members making trips to camps.

Southern trains for New Orleans routinely departed Terminal Station with 1200 passengers, compared to a pre-war peak loading of 775 on holiday excursions. 

I worked the operator-towerman job at Terminal Station in the mid-1960s and thought we were busy with 26 daily arrivals and departures.  I can't imagine handling 3 times that many trains with all of the switching moves, plus mail and express.  Now that was big-time railroading!

Marv

moderated Re: Lcal passenger trains on the Southern 7-8-1941

Marv Clemons
 

It's very kind of you to recommend the books, Ike. Thanks!

As I think you know, "Birmingham Rails" sold out in 10 months and remains out of print. Copies sell for a ridiculously high premium, and since so many missed seeing the book I've published a digital edition which can be viewed on a computer.
The images are absolutely stunning on a high definition monitor. 

If anyone in the group is interested in copies of either the digital edition and the Terminal Station book, they are available at a discount with free shipping on my website at www.bhamrails.com.

Thanks again for the recomendation.

Marv

moderated Pickens Railroad "Explorer"

George Eichelberger
 

The SRHA Southern Presidents' files include proposals for new interurban lines, branch lines and passenger trains.

There are multiple items through 1966 that discuss operating the ex NYC "Explorer" train on the Southern. Internal memos in the file make it clear that the Southern had no interest whatsoever in the concept. (attached)

Ike

PS The next SRHA work session at the TVRM archives building is next weekend.

moderated Re: Pickens Railroad "Explorer"

Ed Mims
 

Here is a photo that I took in the winter of 1965 as the X-plorer departed Augusta, GA. I don’t remember why is was there but know that it’s destination was Atlanta. You can see the small crowd that turned out to watch it pass by so it must have had some publicity. I don’t know why I was not at my duty station (Fort Gordon) unless this was on a Sunday. Fifty five years later I realize that I should have kept a note book but at my age then, I could remember these things.

 

Ed Mims

 

From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io [mailto:main@SouthernRailway.groups.io] On Behalf Of George Eichelberger
Sent: Sunday, February 09, 2020 9:58 AM
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io
Subject: [SouthernRailway] Pickens Railroad "Explorer"

 

The SRHA Southern Presidents' files include proposals for new interurban lines, branch lines and passenger trains.

There are multiple items through 1966 that discuss operating the ex NYC "Explorer" train on the Southern. Internal memos in the file make it clear that the Southern had no interest whatsoever in the concept. (attached)

Ike

PS The next SRHA work session at the TVRM archives building is next weekend.

moderated Re: Pickens Railroad "Explorer"

Carl Ardrey
 

Here it is in 1965 on the SAL.  Evidently, the motive power wasn't too reliable.

On February 9, 2020 at 10:25 AM Ed Mims <wemims@...> wrote:

Here is a photo that I took in the winter of 1965 as the X-plorer departed Augusta, GA. I don’t remember why is was there but know that it’s destination was Atlanta. You can see the small crowd that turned out to watch it pass by so it must have had some publicity. I don’t know why I was not at my duty station (Fort Gordon) unless this was on a Sunday. Fifty five years later I realize that I should have kept a note book but at my age then, I could remember these things.

 

Ed Mims

 

From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io [mailto:main@SouthernRailway.groups.io] On Behalf Of George Eichelberger
Sent: Sunday, February 09, 2020 9:58 AM
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io
Subject: [SouthernRailway] Pickens Railroad "Explorer"

 

The SRHA Southern Presidents' files include proposals for new interurban lines, branch lines and passenger trains.

There are multiple items through 1966 that discuss operating the ex NYC "Explorer" train on the Southern. Internal memos in the file make it clear that the Southern had no interest whatsoever in the concept. (attached)

Ike

PS The next SRHA work session at the TVRM archives building is next weekend.

 



 

moderated Re: Pickens Railroad "Explorer"

Robert Hanson
 

While I never rode the train, I was told by those who did that the X-Plorer did not cover itself with glory on any of the few trips on which it was used.

Most unreliable.

Bob Hanson
Loganville, GA


-----Original Message-----
From: Carl Ardrey <carlardrey2005@...>
To: main <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io>; Ed Mims <wemims@...>
Sent: Sun, Feb 9, 2020 1:01 pm
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Pickens Railroad "Explorer"

Here it is in 1965 on the SAL.  Evidently, the motive power wasn't too reliable.
On February 9, 2020 at 10:25 AM Ed Mims <wemims@...> wrote:

Here is a photo that I took in the winter of 1965 as the X-plorer departed Augusta, GA. I don’t remember why is was there but know that it’s destination was Atlanta. You can see the small crowd that turned out to watch it pass by so it must have had some publicity. I don’t know why I was not at my duty station (Fort Gordon) unless this was on a Sunday. Fifty five years later I realize that I should have kept a note book but at my age then, I could remember these things.
 
Ed Mims
 
From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io [mailto:main@SouthernRailway.groups.io] On Behalf Of George Eichelberger
Sent: Sunday, February 09, 2020 9:58 AM
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io
Subject: [SouthernRailway] Pickens Railroad "Explorer"
 
The SRHA Southern Presidents' files include proposals for new interurban lines, branch lines and passenger trains.

There are multiple items through 1966 that discuss operating the ex NYC "Explorer" train on the Southern. Internal memos in the file make it clear that the Southern had no interest whatsoever in the concept. (attached)

Ike

PS The next SRHA work session at the TVRM archives building is next weekend.
 


 

moderated Re: Pickens Railroad "Explorer"

Jason Greene
 

Ed,
Did it run Georgia Road to Atlanta?

Jason Greene 

On Feb 9, 2020, at 11:28 AM, Ed Mims <wemims@...> wrote:



Here is a photo that I took in the winter of 1965 as the X-plorer departed Augusta, GA. I don’t remember why is was there but know that it’s destination was Atlanta. You can see the small crowd that turned out to watch it pass by so it must have had some publicity. I don’t know why I was not at my duty station (Fort Gordon) unless this was on a Sunday. Fifty five years later I realize that I should have kept a note book but at my age then, I could remember these things.

 

Ed Mims

 

From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io [mailto:main@SouthernRailway.groups.io] On Behalf Of George Eichelberger
Sent: Sunday, February 09, 2020 9:58 AM
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io
Subject: [SouthernRailway] Pickens Railroad "Explorer"

 

The SRHA Southern Presidents' files include proposals for new interurban lines, branch lines and passenger trains.

There are multiple items through 1966 that discuss operating the ex NYC "Explorer" train on the Southern. Internal memos in the file make it clear that the Southern had no interest whatsoever in the concept. (attached)

Ike

PS The next SRHA work session at the TVRM archives building is next weekend.

<The X'plorer on the Georgia Railroad near Mile Post 5 1965 (Ed Mims).tif>

moderated Lynchburg

RamblingReck
 

My latest NRHS Bulletin arrived a couple of days ago.  It had a very interesting article on the new Southern beltway and station in Lynchburg, circa 1911. 
--
John Ryan

moderated Re: Pickens Railroad "Explorer"

Doug Alexander
 

The assessment seems reasonable and well thought out, though I am reminded of one done by the US Highway Department in the late-1930's when the Pennsylvania Turnpike folks, unable to raise enough funds in the private sector, appealed to FDR for federal dollars to make the project happen.  He asked the Highway Dept for its opinion, and they said it would not be worth the cost.  They said that there would never be enough cars built to pay for the road.  FDR wanted to secure Pennsylvania's votes, so he approved it anyway.  The Reconstruction Finance Corporation loaned $32 million and the WPA granted $26 million and the pike was built.  And eventually, there were enough cars built to make it a success.

Doug Alexander
Atlanta

moderated Industries between Morristown and Asheville.

 

I was curious if anyone had a list of industries between Morristown and Asheville. That line intrigued me ( oldest kid lived near it for a few years ) and I would like to know more about it.

thanks in advance 

Todd P

moderated To Mr. Eichelberger - Old Rail

George Eichelberger
 

Might anyone on the Southern Railway io group be able to assist John?

Ike


Begin forwarded message:

From: John Dietrichs <jdietrichs@...>
Subject: To Mr. Eichelberger - Old Rail
Date: February 12, 2020 at 4:19:52 PM EST

Mr. Eichelberger – I am a collector of Civil War memorabilia, and have been fortunate to come into a quantity of early Atlanta area rail that was collected by Beverly Means DuBose, Jr., his son “Bo”, Franklin Garrett, Wilbur Kurtz and Syd Kirksis in the 1950’s and early 1960’s. I have had the sections (ranging from 42 ½” to 12” in length) cut down to 6”, 3”, 2” and 1” sections. I have done my own preliminary research, which I have attached, and a photo of the cross-sections of the rail I have. Actually, I have other rail in my collection, which also includes rail from several gold mines and coal mines – not critical here.
 
I would like to speak, if possible, to an expert on old rail, and confirm or correct my research assumptions on the 6 types of rail I believe to be CW period or earlier as seen in the first photo. I have been utterly unable to find out anything concerning the “cross-rail” piece that looks like a “P”. Jackson McQuig, Architect for the Atlanta History Center, is a rail collector, and has said it is a specialized piece that would be used where two rails cross at an angle. The “gutter” on the base is filled with a build-up of creosote, and caused my cutter problems – chewed up his circular saw blade. By the way, the last image shows a clean picture of the main types I have, plus an example of the Virginia & Truckee RR, c. 1916 style.
 
I WENT TO THE Kennesaw Museum, only to find you folks are no longer located there??
 
I would be pleased to donate a set of the 1” pieces to you, but I really do need to get an experts’ opinion on the types, etc.
 
Thanks you very much – please call anytime if you wish.
 
John
 
John A. Dietrichs
President, Atlanta Civil War Round Table 2019-2020
6810 Chapel Glen Court
Atlanta, GA 30360
770-804-9055
 
 

moderated - Old Rail

Cohen Bob
 

All:

Looking at the images of the 6 types of rail, I am familiar (not an expert) on 5 of the 6 types shows, plus at least one other not shown: strap rail. That was essentially just a piece of iron flat bar, which varied in thickness and width according to the specific needs of the railroad. Those tended to deteriorate more rapidly than the others because they were placed on wood and spiked down to wood stringers longitudinally and the which was not treated deteriorated rapidly plus did not withstand increasing weights of equipment at in got larger and larger.

I know many southern railroads used it, but can't address which or when or for how long, including those in and around Atlanta. The well-known Richmond & Danville RR definitely used it and its deterioration were what caused the slow flight from Richmond by the fleeing Confederate government in April 1865.

All that said, that other thing in the photo (the sort of "P" shaped segment) is a big mystery to me. I can't picture how it was secured to the ties and suspect it was not long in use or was in use in conjunction with another similar piece of iron. I have never seen that before and will do some research exploring sources around here. I don't think I have even seen it in places like the drawings you have either and that, to me, makes its use as rail somewhat suspect since those drawings are pretty good depictions.

My 2 cents worth, not much, but I tried.

Bob Cohen

moderated Re: Industries between Morristown and Asheville.

Tim
 

 A good place to start is a Tennessee Division employee timetable (ETT) for the period you're interested in. Look for the "Business Tracks and Stations Not Shown ..." table near the back of the ETT. The only downfall is that won't list businesses that are in the listed towns (stations).

Tim Rumph
Lancaster, SC

moderated Re: Industries between Morristown and Asheville.

Robert Hanson
 

Another would be an Industrial Directory, of you can find one.

It would list the businesses in each town, what they shipped/received, and, if the town was served by more than one railroad, the road on which it was located and whether or not the business was open to reciprocal switching.

Bob Hanson
Loganville, GA


-----Original Message-----
From: Tim <tarumph@...>
To: main <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io>
Sent: Thu, Feb 13, 2020 11:27 am
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Industries between Morristown and Asheville.

 A good place to start is a Tennessee Division employee timetable (ETT) for the period you're interested in. Look for the "Business Tracks and Stations Not Shown ..." table near the back of the ETT. The only downfall is that won't list businesses that are in the listed towns (stations).

Tim Rumph
Lancaster, SC