Date   
moderated Re: Southern's Arrow Logo?

Robert Hanson
 

Ike - 

I have read that the arrow-through-initials herald (monogram/medallion) originated, not with the R&D, but with the Georgia Pacific Railway.  I can't definitely cite the source of the information, but I believe it was in an issue of Southern Railway's Ties some time in the 1950's or early 1960's.

I do have a Georgia Pacific Railway pass with this monogram/herald on it.

The term "logo" is short for logotype and originated, I believe, in the 1950's or 60's, but again, I can't say for certain.

And this information, plus two dollars, will get you an Atlanta newspaper on a weekday.

Bob Hanson


-----Original Message-----
From: George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...>
To: SouthernRailway <SouthernRailway@groups.io>
Sent: Mon, Oct 15, 2018 12:35 pm
Subject: [SouthernRailway] Southern's Arrow Logo?

All:

Here is an interesting series of emails about the Southern’s “Arrow” monogram (I have never seen the word “logo” in company documentation.)

Can anyone provide any additional information?

Ike

PS There are many letterheads in the SRHA archives. Many are on letterheads never used. They were kept, turned over and the reverse side used after the letterhead was obsolete. Some of the letterheads from car builders and customers are literally works of art that take up 1/3 of the page.


Begin forwarded message:

From: Bill Schafer <bill4501@...>
Subject: Re: Southern's Arrow Logo?
Date: October 15, 2018 at 12:22:04 PM EDT


All:

I have Official Guides from 1889 and from 1893. Sometime between those two dates, railroad monograms and logos seem to have proliferated. The entries in the 1889 Guide are pretty plain for most railroads including the R&D (also including the PRR entry, which does NOT feature the keystone logo) but by 1893, nearly every major railroad had some kind of identifying monogram, trademark, or logo. I don’t have access to my timetables that go back that far, but I’m pretty sure they would show the same thing.

The arrow-through-the-letters logo, originating with the R&D, was definitely the inspiration for the similar SOU trademark. I have not seen any correspondence that discusses this, but the empirical evidence is pretty convincing. Maybe some letterhead or other document in the SRHA Archives can show where the arrow logo was used before 1893.

Early SOU public timetables featured the SR-with-arrow monogram on the cover but subsequent timetables dropped any kind of logo, even (until the 1920s) on the maps. For example, the timetables from 1894 to 1907 have the logo on the cover; the 1909 and subsequent ones, don't. A Southern trademark - the “SR-in-a-circle” - does not reappear to the cover of system public timetables until 1954. 

The Official Guide, however, is different. From at least 1893 on, just about all major railroads had an identifying mark in the outer upper corners of each page of their entry so a station agent, flipping through the pages, could find the railroad he was looking for quickly. From 1894 until at least 1910, the Southern entry used the arrow logo on the outer corners of each page. From 1915 on, they used the SR-in-the-circle monogram. This monogram was designed, invented, and adopted in 1915. The story of how it came to be designed - as a doodle on a napkin - is described in the November-December 1990 issue of SRHA’s The Green Light (predecessor to TIES magazine).

Hope this helps.

—Bill Schafer



On Oct 15, 2018, at 11:33 AM, george eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:

Eric:

The “Arrow” monogram was adapted from an R&D version (see attached). We do not know when the R&D started using it but it’s safe to say the Southern had it in mind on day one. I am aware it was used into the teens and twenties but have never seen anything that ended its use.

Maybe our TIES Editor has some additional info?

Ike


---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: Eric Zabilka
Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2018, 8:56 PM
Subject: Southern's Arrow Logo?
To: <Webmaster@...>


I am a member of the SRHA and have a quick, and probably dumb, question.
Do we know when the Southern started using the SR logo with the arrow behind it?  And was there a point when it stopped using that particular logo?

Eric Zabilka
Wilmore, Kentucky





moderated Re: Southern's Arrow Logo?

George Eichelberger
 

Bob:

Thanks! Maybe you could scan or take a photo of the Georgia Pacific “logo”.

I’ve attached the only GP letterhead scanned to date. Obviously, it is from the R&D receivership era.

The second letter is not “fancy” but would certainly get anyone’s attention that received a letter. We have several from Mr. Flagler…handwritten.

Ike




On Oct 15, 2018, at 12:48 PM, Robert Hanson via Groups.Io <RHanson669@...> wrote:

Ike - 

I have read that the arrow-through-initials herald (monogram/medallion) originated, not with the R&D, but with the Georgia Pacific Railway.  I can't definitely cite the source of the information, but I believe it was in an issue of Southern Railway's Ties some time in the 1950's or early 1960's.

I do have a Georgia Pacific Railway pass with this monogram/herald on it.

The term "logo" is short for logotype and originated, I believe, in the 1950's or 60's, but again, I can't say for certain.

And this information, plus two dollars, will get you an Atlanta newspaper on a weekday.

Bob Hanson


-----Original Message-----
From: George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...>
To: SouthernRailway <SouthernRailway@groups.io>
Sent: Mon, Oct 15, 2018 12:35 pm
Subject: [SouthernRailway] Southern's Arrow Logo?

All:

Here is an interesting series of emails about the Southern’s “Arrow” monogram (I have never seen the word “logo” in company documentation.)

Can anyone provide any additional information?

Ike

PS There are many letterheads in the SRHA archives. Many are on letterheads never used. They were kept, turned over and the reverse side used after the letterhead was obsolete. Some of the letterheads from car builders and customers are literally works of art that take up 1/3 of the page.


Begin forwarded message:

From: Bill Schafer <bill4501@...>
Subject: Re: Southern's Arrow Logo?
Date: October 15, 2018 at 12:22:04 PM EDT


All:

I have Official Guides from 1889 and from 1893. Sometime between those two dates, railroad monograms and logos seem to have proliferated. The entries in the 1889 Guide are pretty plain for most railroads including the R&D (also including the PRR entry, which does NOT feature the keystone logo) but by 1893, nearly every major railroad had some kind of identifying monogram, trademark, or logo. I don’t have access to my timetables that go back that far, but I’m pretty sure they would show the same thing.

The arrow-through-the-letters logo, originating with the R&D, was definitely the inspiration for the similar SOU trademark. I have not seen any correspondence that discusses this, but the empirical evidence is pretty convincing. Maybe some letterhead or other document in the SRHA Archives can show where the arrow logo was used before 1893.

Early SOU public timetables featured the SR-with-arrow monogram on the cover but subsequent timetables dropped any kind of logo, even (until the 1920s) on the maps. For example, the timetables from 1894 to 1907 have the logo on the cover; the 1909 and subsequent ones, don't. A Southern trademark - the “SR-in-a-circle” - does not reappear to the cover of system public timetables until 1954. 

The Official Guide, however, is different. From at least 1893 on, just about all major railroads had an identifying mark in the outer upper corners of each page of their entry so a station agent, flipping through the pages, could find the railroad he was looking for quickly. From 1894 until at least 1910, the Southern entry used the arrow logo on the outer corners of each page. From 1915 on, they used the SR-in-the-circle monogram. This monogram was designed, invented, and adopted in 1915. The story of how it came to be designed - as a doodle on a napkin - is described in the November-December 1990 issue of SRHA’s The Green Light (predecessor to TIES magazine).

Hope this helps.

—Bill Schafer



On Oct 15, 2018, at 11:33 AM, george eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:

Eric:

The “Arrow” monogram was adapted from an R&D version (see attached). We do not know when the R&D started using it but it’s safe to say the Southern had it in mind on day one. I am aware it was used into the teens and twenties but have never seen anything that ended its use.

Maybe our TIES Editor has some additional info?

Ike


---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: Eric Zabilka
Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2018, 8:56 PM
Subject: Southern's Arrow Logo?
To: <Webmaster@...>


I am a member of the SRHA and have a quick, and probably dumb, question.
Do we know when the Southern started using the SR logo with the arrow behind it?  And was there a point when it stopped using that particular logo?

Eric Zabilka
Wilmore, Kentucky


<R&D letterhead.jpeg>




moderated Re: Southern's Arrow Logo?

rwbrv4
 

There's a letter from the president (1916? Or so) in Southern News Bulletin terminating the use of the SR and arrow, and introducing the new one.
Ri m

On Monday, October 15, 2018 George Eichelberger <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io> wrote:

All:

Here is an interesting series of emails about the Southern’s “Arrow” monogram (I have never seen the word “logo” in company documentation.)

Can anyone provide any additional information?

Ike

PS There are many letterheads in the SRHA archives. Many are on letterheads never used. They were kept, turned over and the reverse side used after the letterhead was obsolete. Some of the letterheads from car builders and customers are literally works of art that take up 1/3 of the page.

Begin forwarded message:

From: Bill Schafer <bill4501@...>
Subject: Re: Southern's Arrow Logo?
Date: October 15, 2018 at 12:22:04 PM EDT

All:

I have Official Guides from 1889 and from 1893. Sometime between those two dates, railroad monograms and logos seem to have proliferated. The entries in the 1889 Guide are pretty plain for most railroads including the R&D (also including the PRR entry, which does NOT feature the keystone logo) but by 1893, nearly every major railroad had some kind of identifying monogram, trademark, or logo. I don’t have access to my timetables that go back that far, but I’m pretty sure they would show the same thing.

The arrow-through-the-letters logo, originating with the R&D, was definitely the inspiration for the similar SOU trademark. I have not seen any correspondence that discusses this, but the empirical evidence is pretty convincing. Maybe some letterhead or other document in the SRHA Archives can show where the arrow logo was used before 1893.

Early SOU public timetables featured the SR-with-arrow monogram on the cover but subsequent timetables dropped any kind of logo, even (until the 1920s) on the maps. For example, the timetables from 1894 to 1907 have the logo on the cover; the 1909 and subsequent ones, don't. A Southern trademark - the “SR-in-a-circle” - does not reappear to the cover of system public timetables until 1954. 

The Official Guide, however, is different. From at least 1893 on, just about all major railroads had an identifying mark in the outer upper corners of each page of their entry so a station agent, flipping through the pages, could find the railroad he was looking for quickly. From 1894 until at least 1910, the Southern entry used the arrow logo on the outer corners of each page. From 1915 on, they used the SR-in-the-circle monogram. This monogram was designed, invented, and adopted in 1915. The story of how it came to be designed - as a doodle on a napkin - is described in the November-December 1990 issue of SRHA’s The Green Light (predecessor to TIES magazine).

Hope this helps.

—Bill Schafer

On Oct 15, 2018, at 11:33 AM, george eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:

Eric:

The “Arrow” monogram was adapted from an R&D version (see attached). We do not know when the R&D started using it but it’s safe to say the Southern had it in mind on day one. I am aware it was used into the teens and twenties but have never seen anything that ended its use.

Maybe our TIES Editor has some additional info?

Ike

---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: Eric Zabilka
Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2018, 8:56 PM
Subject: Southern's Arrow Logo?
To: <Webmaster@...>

I am a member of the SRHA and have a quick, and probably dumb, question.
Do we know when the Southern started using the SR logo with the arrow behind it?  And was there a point when it stopped using that particular logo?

Eric Zabilka
Wilmore, Kentucky




moderated Southern Railway Trademark (aka monogram)

Bill Schafer
 

Thanks, Rick, for the memory jog.

Here is the excerpt from the October 1915 Southern News Bulletin announcing the official adoption of the SR monogram as the company trademark.  No mention is made of the old arrow monogram.


—Bill Schafer

On Oct 15, 2018, at 1:46 PM, rwbrv4 via Groups.Io <Rwbrv4@...> wrote:

There's a letter from the president (1916? Or so) in Southern News Bulletin terminating the use of the SR and arrow, and introducing the new one.
Ri m

On Monday, October 15, 2018 George Eichelberger <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io> wrote:

All:

Here is an interesting series of emails about the Southern’s “Arrow” monogram (I have never seen the word “logo” in company documentation.)

Can anyone provide any additional information?

Ike

PS There are many letterheads in the SRHA archives. Many are on letterheads never used. They were kept, turned over and the reverse side used after the letterhead was obsolete. Some of the letterheads from car builders and customers are literally works of art that take up 1/3 of the page.

Begin forwarded message:

From: Bill Schafer <bill4501@...>
Subject: Re: Southern's Arrow Logo?
Date: October 15, 2018 at 12:22:04 PM EDT

All:

I have Official Guides from 1889 and from 1893. Sometime between those two dates, railroad monograms and logos seem to have proliferated. The entries in the 1889 Guide are pretty plain for most railroads including the R&D (also including the PRR entry, which does NOT feature the keystone logo) but by 1893, nearly every major railroad had some kind of identifying monogram, trademark, or logo. I don’t have access to my timetables that go back that far, but I’m pretty sure they would show the same thing.

The arrow-through-the-letters logo, originating with the R&D, was definitely the inspiration for the similar SOU trademark. I have not seen any correspondence that discusses this, but the empirical evidence is pretty convincing. Maybe some letterhead or other document in the SRHA Archives can show where the arrow logo was used before 1893.

Early SOU public timetables featured the SR-with-arrow monogram on the cover but subsequent timetables dropped any kind of logo, even (until the 1920s) on the maps. For example, the timetables from 1894 to 1907 have the logo on the cover; the 1909 and subsequent ones, don't. A Southern trademark - the “SR-in-a-circle” - does not reappear to the cover of system public timetables until 1954. 

The Official Guide, however, is different. From at least 1893 on, just about all major railroads had an identifying mark in the outer upper corners of each page of their entry so a station agent, flipping through the pages, could find the railroad he was looking for quickly. From 1894 until at least 1910, the Southern entry used the arrow logo on the outer corners of each page. From 1915 on, they used the SR-in-the-circle monogram. This monogram was designed, invented, and adopted in 1915. The story of how it came to be designed - as a doodle on a napkin - is described in the November-December 1990 issue of SRHA’s The Green Light (predecessor to TIES magazine).

Hope this helps.

—Bill Schafer

On Oct 15, 2018, at 11:33 AM, george eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:

Eric:

The “Arrow” monogram was adapted from an R&D version (see attached). We do not know when the R&D started using it but it’s safe to say the Southern had it in mind on day one. I am aware it was used into the teens and twenties but have never seen anything that ended its use.

Maybe our TIES Editor has some additional info?

Ike

---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: Eric Zabilka
Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2018, 8:56 PM
Subject: Southern's Arrow Logo?
To: <Webmaster@...>

I am a member of the SRHA and have a quick, and probably dumb, question.
Do we know when the Southern started using the SR logo with the arrow behind it?  And was there a point when it stopped using that particular logo?

Eric Zabilka
Wilmore, Kentucky





moderated Re: Southern's Arrow Logo?

Robert Hanson
 

Ike - 

Here are scans of the front and back of the pass I mentioned.  I realize that it is from 1894, long after the R&D assumed control of the GP, but I have read, can't remember where, that the arrow trade mark was adapted from that of the Georgia Pacific.  I've located one article in SR Ties from 1947, but it says only the the arrow monogram was previously used by the R&D, with no mention of where/when/how they got it.  Still looking for my source.

I scanned both sides of the pass because of the notation on the reverse and the signature.  Was the Reverend Mr. Spencer related to SR's President Spencer?  I have an R&D pass for 1894 made out to the reverend with a similar notation and signature.

Sorry about the hole in the pass.  It was there when I got it, and had apparently been there about 100 years.

Bob


-----Original Message-----
From: George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...>
To: main <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io>
Sent: Mon, Oct 15, 2018 1:02 pm
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Southern's Arrow Logo?

Bob:

Thanks! Maybe you could scan or take a photo of the Georgia Pacific “logo”.

I’ve attached the only GP letterhead scanned to date. Obviously, it is from the R&D receivership era.

The second letter is not “fancy” but would certainly get anyone’s attention that received a letter. We have several from Mr. Flagler…handwritten.

Ike




On Oct 15, 2018, at 12:48 PM, Robert Hanson via Groups.Io <RHanson669@...> wrote:

Ike - 

I have read that the arrow-through-initials herald (monogram/medallion) originated, not with the R&D, but with the Georgia Pacific Railway.  I can't definitely cite the source of the information, but I believe it was in an issue of Southern Railway's Ties some time in the 1950's or early 1960's.

I do have a Georgia Pacific Railway pass with this monogram/herald on it.

The term "logo" is short for logotype and originated, I believe, in the 1950's or 60's, but again, I can't say for certain.

And this information, plus two dollars, will get you an Atlanta newspaper on a weekday.

Bob Hanson


-----Original Message-----
From: George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...>
To: SouthernRailway <SouthernRailway@groups.io>
Sent: Mon, Oct 15, 2018 12:35 pm
Subject: [SouthernRailway] Southern's Arrow Logo?

All:

Here is an interesting series of emails about the Southern’s “Arrow” monogram (I have never seen the word “logo” in company documentation.)

Can anyone provide any additional information?

Ike

PS There are many letterheads in the SRHA archives. Many are on letterheads never used. They were kept, turned over and the reverse side used after the letterhead was obsolete. Some of the letterheads from car builders and customers are literally works of art that take up 1/3 of the page.


Begin forwarded message:

From: Bill Schafer <bill4501@...>
Subject: Re: Southern's Arrow Logo?
Date: October 15, 2018 at 12:22:04 PM EDT


All:

I have Official Guides from 1889 and from 1893. Sometime between those two dates, railroad monograms and logos seem to have proliferated. The entries in the 1889 Guide are pretty plain for most railroads including the R&D (also including the PRR entry, which does NOT feature the keystone logo) but by 1893, nearly every major railroad had some kind of identifying monogram, trademark, or logo. I don’t have access to my timetables that go back that far, but I’m pretty sure they would show the same thing.

The arrow-through-the-letters logo, originating with the R&D, was definitely the inspiration for the similar SOU trademark. I have not seen any correspondence that discusses this, but the empirical evidence is pretty convincing. Maybe some letterhead or other document in the SRHA Archives can show where the arrow logo was used before 1893.

Early SOU public timetables featured the SR-with-arrow monogram on the cover but subsequent timetables dropped any kind of logo, even (until the 1920s) on the maps. For example, the timetables from 1894 to 1907 have the logo on the cover; the 1909 and subsequent ones, don't. A Southern trademark - the “SR-in-a-circle” - does not reappear to the cover of system public timetables until 1954. 

The Official Guide, however, is different. From at least 1893 on, just about all major railroads had an identifying mark in the outer upper corners of each page of their entry so a station agent, flipping through the pages, could find the railroad he was looking for quickly. From 1894 until at least 1910, the Southern entry used the arrow logo on the outer corners of each page. From 1915 on, they used the SR-in-the-circle monogram. This monogram was designed, invented, and adopted in 1915. The story of how it came to be designed - as a doodle on a napkin - is described in the November-December 1990 issue of SRHA’s The Green Light (predecessor to TIES magazine).

Hope this helps.

—Bill Schafer



On Oct 15, 2018, at 11:33 AM, george eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:

Eric:

The “Arrow” monogram was adapted from an R&D version (see attached). We do not know when the R&D started using it but it’s safe to say the Southern had it in mind on day one. I am aware it was used into the teens and twenties but have never seen anything that ended its use.

Maybe our TIES Editor has some additional info?

Ike


---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: Eric Zabilka
Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2018, 8:56 PM
Subject: Southern's Arrow Logo?
To: <Webmaster@...>


I am a member of the SRHA and have a quick, and probably dumb, question.
Do we know when the Southern started using the SR logo with the arrow behind it?  And was there a point when it stopped using that particular logo?

Eric Zabilka
Wilmore, Kentucky


<R&D letterhead.jpeg>




moderated Richmond & Danville "Despatch"

George Eichelberger
 

Until I learn how to cut some of the "thread" material out of messages, I'll make this separate.

Looking around in the SRHA digital files for additional info on the SR Arrow monogram, I found the attached stencil scheme for
Southern vent box cars from 1897. The "billboard" stencil uses new "SR" initials but also includes "R&D Despatch" negotiated
Aug 1, 1887. (Contract No 28, the cover and page 1 are attached. I can post the other six pages if anyone is interested.)

One question I cannot find an answer for.....why is "dispatch" spelled "despatch" here and on "Atlantic Coast Despatch" (PRR/ACL)? from the same period?
Note the cover and first page of the contract use "dispatch" spelling.

Ike

Ike

moderated Re: Richmond & Danville "Despatch"

Robert Hanson
 

Bro. Webster says that "despatch" is a variation of "dispatch."

Apparently both are correct.

Bob Hanson


-----Original Message-----
From: George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...>
To: main <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io>
Sent: Mon, Oct 15, 2018 5:35 pm
Subject: [SouthernRailway] Richmond & Danville "Despatch"

Until I learn how to cut some of the "thread" material out of messages, I'll make this separate.

Looking around in the SRHA digital files for additional info on the SR Arrow monogram, I found the attached stencil scheme for
Southern vent box cars from 1897. The "billboard" stencil uses new "SR" initials but also includes "R&D Despatch" negotiated
Aug 1, 1887. (Contract No 28, the cover and page 1 are attached. I can post the other six pages if anyone is interested.)

One question I cannot find an answer for.....why is "dispatch" spelled "despatch" here and on "Atlantic Coast Despatch" (PRR/ACL)? from the same period?
Note the cover and first page of the contract use "dispatch" spelling.

Ike

Ike

moderated Re: Richmond & Danville "Despatch"

Bill Schafer
 

Ike:

The Oxford English Dictionary lists both spellings with equal status. “Dispatch” is by far the more common spelling, uniquely so in the 16th, 17th, and 18th-century examples. “Despatch” seems to have become fashionable in the late Victorian period, which might explain why we see “Despatch” on freight cars in that timeframe. (above info from internet) The word “dispatch” (and “despatch”) derives from the Spanish “despachar”, meaning to expedite or hasten.]

—Bill

On Oct 15, 2018, at 5:35 PM, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:

Until I learn how to cut some of the "thread" material out of messages, I'll make this separate.

Looking around in the SRHA digital files for additional info on the SR Arrow monogram, I found the attached stencil scheme for
Southern vent box cars from 1897. The "billboard" stencil uses new "SR" initials but also includes "R&D Despatch" negotiated
Aug 1, 1887. (Contract No 28, the cover and page 1 are attached. I can post the other six pages if anyone is interested.)

One question I cannot find an answer for.....why is "dispatch" spelled "despatch" here and on "Atlantic Coast Despatch" (PRR/ACL)? from the same period?
Note the cover and first page of the contract use "dispatch" spelling.

Ike

Ike <6.E.26 R_D Despatch_B.jpg><R_D Dispatch Cover.jpg><R_D Dispatch Pg1.jpg>

moderated Re: Richmond & Danville "Despatch"

darrell2010
 

Ike,

Per a dictionary, "despatch" has the same meaning as "dispatch", but was a common spelling in the 19th century before dispatch became the more common spelling.

Darrell Sawyer


On Monday, October 15, 2018, 3:35:17 PM MDT, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:


Until I learn how to cut some of the "thread" material out of messages, I'll make this separate.

Looking around in the SRHA digital files for additional info on the SR Arrow monogram, I found the attached stencil scheme for
Southern vent box cars from 1897. The "billboard" stencil uses new "SR" initials but also includes "R&D Despatch" negotiated
Aug 1, 1887. (Contract No 28, the cover and page 1 are attached. I can post the other six pages if anyone is interested.)

One question I cannot find an answer for.....why is "dispatch" spelled "despatch" here and on "Atlantic Coast Despatch" (PRR/ACL)? from the same period?
Note the cover and first page of the contract use "dispatch" spelling.

Ike

Ike

moderated Re: Richmond & Danville "Despatch"

George Eichelberger
 

I “get” the two spellings but why did the railroad(s) chose to use the archaic version on car sides but not the contract wording? …..I’ll go with Bill Schafer’s “Victorian” era concept. Older items in the SR Presidents’ files use what could be considered archaic words and sentence structure quite often.

Here is another one, I have asked before. Why did the Southern (and other railroads) put a “.” after their roadname on passenger equipment? Here is a superb drawing of a Southern coach dated September 8, 1900. The style disappeared from drawings not long after. 

The punctuation does not show on freight cars, including the two 1897 drawings in the archives.

Ike

PS If we had the highest quality prints made we could get of this coach, a wide vestibule version, a combine and a mail and baggage car, would anyone be interested in buying copies to support the SRHA archives?



On Oct 15, 2018, at 6:28 PM, darrell2010 via Groups.Io <darrell2010@...> wrote:

Ike,

Per a dictionary, "despatch" has the same meaning as "dispatch", but was a common spelling in the 19th century before dispatch became the more common spelling.

Darrell Sawyer


On Monday, October 15, 2018, 3:35:17 PM MDT, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:


Until I learn how to cut some of the "thread" material out of messages, I'll make this separate.

Looking around in the SRHA digital files for additional info on the SR Arrow monogram, I found the attached stencil scheme for
Southern vent box cars from 1897. The "billboard" stencil uses new "SR" initials but also includes "R&D Despatch" negotiated
Aug 1, 1887. (Contract No 28, the cover and page 1 are attached. I can post the other six pages if anyone is interested.)

One question I cannot find an answer for.....why is "dispatch" spelled "despatch" here and on "Atlantic Coast Despatch" (PRR/ACL)? from the same period?
Note the cover and first page of the contract use "dispatch" spelling.

Ike

Ike

moderated Southern "Package Car" Services

George Eichelberger
 

With SEARS bankruptcy in the news, it may be interesting to mention how "big" they were in the Southern's LCL business. SEARS had a distribution facility on the Southern belt line in Atlanta. The (large) building still exists and I expect the ROW of the tracks into it off the Southern are still visible. In addition to the Southern's own freight houses in Atlanta, plus Inman Transfer, (a FedEx like hub at Inman Yard) package cars were loaded by SEARS at their facility and left on scheduled freight trains every week day.

If you look at many photos of SR steam era freights, you may notice a group, of Southern 40' box cars directly behind the engine. While SR freights had a high percentage of home road cars, seeing six, eight or a dozen together on the front of a train defied what would be expected out of a classification yard such as Inman. A reason was that scheduled afternoon departures from Atlanta (and Knoxville and Spencer) would depart the yard then make a pickup as they passed the different freight houses. In turn, the Southern used only SR 36', 40' and then 50' box cars for the service. All of the large freight houses had multiple tracks accessed from the same platforms. To make that work, all car doors were opened and aligned so bridges could be used between cars on different tracks. Everything was handled by men with hand-trucks so the system worked. When cut-off time for shipments came, the bridges were removed and doors were closed.

Depending on the day of the week, as many as 50 package cars left Atlanta every evening. The SEARS cars for Florida would be in Jacksonville the next morning with some passed to the FEC, ACL and SAL.

Here are two items that will be included in a package car article being researched for TIES. We have two complete package car schedules in the SRHA archives, if anyone can copy or donate anything on the subject they may have, we'll use it in the article.

Ike

moderated Re: Southern "Package Car" Services

Tim
 

Here is an aerial photo of the Spencer Transfer, which is mentioned prominently in the document that Ike posted. This is just south of the shops, adjacent to what is now called "Old Spencer Yard". The photo is from the archives of the NC DOT and was taken in November of 1959. From other photos I've seen, this facility was gone by 1965.

Tim Rumph
Lancaster, SC.

moderated Re: Southern "Package Car" Services

Dick Fisher
 

When I was with Wabco at that time we were directed to make shipments from Pittsburgh in the daily Spencer Transfer car, arriving 3 days later at Spencer.

Dick Fisher


On 10/16/2018 10:58 AM, Tim wrote:
Here is an aerial photo of the Spencer Transfer, which is mentioned prominently in the document that Ike posted. This is just south of the shops, adjacent to what is now called "Old Spencer Yard". The photo is from the archives of the NC DOT and was taken in November of 1959. From other photos I've seen, this facility was gone by 1965.

Tim Rumph
Lancaster, SC.

moderated Re: Southern "Package Car" Services

C J Wyatt
 

<<
Here are two items that will be included in a package car article being researched for TIES. We have two complete package car schedules in the SRHA archives, if anyone can copy or donate anything on the subject they may have, we'll use it in the article.
>>

Ike,

The Southern Railway directory of Industries which was printed around 1938 has ten pages of the package car routes for the various freight houses on the system.

One fascinating aspect was the textiles package business going from mills in the Carolina's to Pinners Point for both coastal steamship connections and international. Obviously that would have been a significant part of the business at Spencer Transfer, but many mills loaded package cars themselves. If I recall, the main time freight of the era from Spencer NC to Pinners Point VA was named the "Spinning Wheel".

Other important package commodities from the Carolina's were tobacco and furniture. R. J. Reynolds loaded a lot of cars at its plant in Winston-Salem. Some of those routes were destined for off-line freight houses.

Jack 

moderated Re: Southern "Package Car" Services

Bill Schafer
 

When I went to work for Southern Railway in Greensboro in 1971,  a few vestiges of package car service still existed, although I didn’t appreciate them at the time.

Southern apparently turned over its remaining LCL business sometime in the 1960s to independent freight forwarders [if there’s any files on this in the SRHA Archives, this should be part of an LCL article], which received, consolidated, and distributed the freight, loaded and unloaded the cars at facilities they [probably] rented from the Southern, and were served by some of the hottest trains on the division. The company in Greensboro was Western Carloading, just south of Pomona Yard. All I ever remember seeing at that facility were 40’ boxcars, and they frequently were forwarded south on the front of 219, which was the hot PotYd-New Orleans rail-highway train. (153, the equally hot all-merchandise PotYd-New Orleans freight didn’t normally stop at Pomona, but if 219 was on time, it stopped there to pick up pigs; if it was running late, 159 made the pickup and forwarded the cars to Spencer. If 159 was running late, the Thomasville Switcher, if memory serves, made a special run to Pomona, grabbed 219’s pickup, and forwarded it to Spencer, where 219 changed crews and routinely picked up and set off cars anyway.)

Sears had a large rail-served facility north of downtown Greensboro, not far from my trackside apartment, that still loaded or received 40’ boxcars, and was switched by a local switch engine in the morning. IIRC, the cars were taken to/brought from Pomona, where they may (not entirely sure) have been added to the Western Carloading pickup. 

Some of the details above may be off, but you get the idea - LCL was fading away, but in 1971 was not entirely dead. There may have been other examples of vestigial LCL service on the Southern at that time, but I wasn’t aware of it.

—Bill Schafer


On Oct 16, 2018, at 11:57 AM, C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...> wrote:

<<
Here are two items that will be included in a package car article being researched for TIES. We have two complete package car schedules in the SRHA archives, if anyone can copy or donate anything on the subject they may have, we'll use it in the article.
>>

Ike,

The Southern Railway directory of Industries which was printed around 1938 has ten pages of the package car routes for the various freight houses on the system.

One fascinating aspect was the textiles package business going from mills in the Carolina's to Pinners Point for both coastal steamship connections and international. Obviously that would have been a significant part of the business at Spencer Transfer, but many mills loaded package cars themselves. If I recall, the main time freight of the era from Spencer NC to Pinners Point VA was named the "Spinning Wheel".

Other important package commodities from the Carolina's were tobacco and furniture. R. J. Reynolds loaded a lot of cars at its plant in Winston-Salem. Some of those routes were destined for off-line freight houses.

Jack 

moderated Re: Southern "Package Car" Services

George Eichelberger
 

Jack and Dick:

Great information!….

Dick: Do you remember if your shipments went out on the PRR or B&O?

I have always known about package cars but did not realize how significant the business was. I am not clear on the distinction between “package cars” and “LCL” traffic. Package cars originated and terminated at company freight houses, where LCL could (Pls correct me somebody if I’m wrong) be loaded at more than one location for shippers and receivers that had less than carload shipments.

Package cars could make intermediate stops. It was apparently up to the train crew to load and unload shipments along line of road. Some of the local locations were not much more than bus stop (“wait shed”) with a closet. Gurnee Jct, AL (attached) was basically just the “closet”. (I was “working” (as much as a forth grader could) on the Baltimore and Annapolis one day about 1955 when we stopped at the depot in Glen Burnie. The crew opened the door on a B&O box car, the freight room depot door, set a bridge plate between the doors and unloaded a new refrigerator for a local store….”LCL” B&A style.)

Another thing I do not really understand (there are many) is the relationship between package cars and REA. I realize they were separate operations, REA being passenger train oriented but I have seen minor references to shipments being transferred between the two.

Ike


moderated Re: Southern "Package Car" Services

Dick Fisher
 

I'm not sure.

Dick


On 10/16/2018 2:27 PM, George Eichelberger wrote:
Jack and Dick:

Great information!….

Dick: Do you remember if your shipments went out on the PRR or B&O?

I have always known about package cars but did not realize how significant the business was. I am not clear on the distinction between “package cars” and “LCL” traffic. Package cars originated and terminated at company freight houses, where LCL could (Pls correct me somebody if I’m wrong) be loaded at more than one location for shippers and receivers that had less than carload shipments.

Package cars could make intermediate stops. It was apparently up to the train crew to load and unload shipments along line of road. Some of the local locations were not much more than bus stop (“wait shed”) with a closet. Gurnee Jct, AL (attached) was basically just the “closet”. (I was “working” (as much as a forth grader could) on the Baltimore and Annapolis one day about 1955 when we stopped at the depot in Glen Burnie. The crew opened the door on a B&O box car, the freight room depot door, set a bridge plate between the doors and unloaded a new refrigerator for a local store….”LCL” B&A style.)

Another thing I do not really understand (there are many) is the relationship between package cars and REA. I realize they were separate operations, REA being passenger train oriented but I have seen minor references to shipments being transferred between the two.

Ike



moderated Re: Southern "Package Car" Services

D. Scott Chatfield
 

At some point Sears moved its business over to its trucking subsidiary, Terminal Freight.  Remember the baby blue trailers?  We handled quite a few trailers for them into Atlanta, although I don't recall which train(s).  TF's facility was at the corner of Marietta and Ashby Streets, across from King Plow.  Building is still there.


Scott Chatfield

moderated SOU Directory of Industries (was Re: [SouthernRailway] Southern "Package Car" Services)

mike turner
 

Dumb question of the day: where might one find a copy of SOU directories of industries? Specific interest is circa 1950 but any year would be helpful. Thx.

Mike Turner

MP-Z35

On 10/16/2018 11:57 AM, C J Wyatt wrote:
Ike,
...
The Southern Railway directory of Industries which was printed around 1938 has ten pages of the package car routes for the various freight houses on the system.
...
Jack 

moderated Re: SOU Directory of Industries (was Re: [SouthernRailway] Southern "Package Car" Services)

Robert Hanson
 

They occasionally show up at railroad memorabilia shows, but when they do, they aren't cheap.  The last one I saw (circa 1930) changed hands at something over $100.

You also might monitor ebay.


Bob Hanson


-----Original Message-----
From: mike turner <yardcoolie1968@...>
To: main <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io>
Sent: Tue, Oct 16, 2018 4:37 pm
Subject: SOU Directory of Industries (was Re: [SouthernRailway] Southern "Package Car" Services)

Dumb question of the day: where might one find a copy of SOU directories of industries? Specific interest is circa 1950 but any year would be helpful. Thx.
Mike Turner
MP-Z35
On 10/16/2018 11:57 AM, C J Wyatt wrote:
Ike,
...
The Southern Railway directory of Industries which was printed around 1938 has ten pages of the package car routes for the various freight houses on the system.
...
Jack