Date   
moderated Re: Southern "Package Car" Services

Bill Schafer
 

When I went to work for Southern Railway in Greensboro in 1971,  a few vestiges of package car service still existed, although I didn’t appreciate them at the time.

Southern apparently turned over its remaining LCL business sometime in the 1960s to independent freight forwarders [if there’s any files on this in the SRHA Archives, this should be part of an LCL article], which received, consolidated, and distributed the freight, loaded and unloaded the cars at facilities they [probably] rented from the Southern, and were served by some of the hottest trains on the division. The company in Greensboro was Western Carloading, just south of Pomona Yard. All I ever remember seeing at that facility were 40’ boxcars, and they frequently were forwarded south on the front of 219, which was the hot PotYd-New Orleans rail-highway train. (153, the equally hot all-merchandise PotYd-New Orleans freight didn’t normally stop at Pomona, but if 219 was on time, it stopped there to pick up pigs; if it was running late, 159 made the pickup and forwarded the cars to Spencer. If 159 was running late, the Thomasville Switcher, if memory serves, made a special run to Pomona, grabbed 219’s pickup, and forwarded it to Spencer, where 219 changed crews and routinely picked up and set off cars anyway.)

Sears had a large rail-served facility north of downtown Greensboro, not far from my trackside apartment, that still loaded or received 40’ boxcars, and was switched by a local switch engine in the morning. IIRC, the cars were taken to/brought from Pomona, where they may (not entirely sure) have been added to the Western Carloading pickup. 

Some of the details above may be off, but you get the idea - LCL was fading away, but in 1971 was not entirely dead. There may have been other examples of vestigial LCL service on the Southern at that time, but I wasn’t aware of it.

—Bill Schafer


On Oct 16, 2018, at 11:57 AM, C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...> wrote:

<<
Here are two items that will be included in a package car article being researched for TIES. We have two complete package car schedules in the SRHA archives, if anyone can copy or donate anything on the subject they may have, we'll use it in the article.
>>

Ike,

The Southern Railway directory of Industries which was printed around 1938 has ten pages of the package car routes for the various freight houses on the system.

One fascinating aspect was the textiles package business going from mills in the Carolina's to Pinners Point for both coastal steamship connections and international. Obviously that would have been a significant part of the business at Spencer Transfer, but many mills loaded package cars themselves. If I recall, the main time freight of the era from Spencer NC to Pinners Point VA was named the "Spinning Wheel".

Other important package commodities from the Carolina's were tobacco and furniture. R. J. Reynolds loaded a lot of cars at its plant in Winston-Salem. Some of those routes were destined for off-line freight houses.

Jack 

moderated Re: Southern "Package Car" Services

George Eichelberger
 

Jack and Dick:

Great information!….

Dick: Do you remember if your shipments went out on the PRR or B&O?

I have always known about package cars but did not realize how significant the business was. I am not clear on the distinction between “package cars” and “LCL” traffic. Package cars originated and terminated at company freight houses, where LCL could (Pls correct me somebody if I’m wrong) be loaded at more than one location for shippers and receivers that had less than carload shipments.

Package cars could make intermediate stops. It was apparently up to the train crew to load and unload shipments along line of road. Some of the local locations were not much more than bus stop (“wait shed”) with a closet. Gurnee Jct, AL (attached) was basically just the “closet”. (I was “working” (as much as a forth grader could) on the Baltimore and Annapolis one day about 1955 when we stopped at the depot in Glen Burnie. The crew opened the door on a B&O box car, the freight room depot door, set a bridge plate between the doors and unloaded a new refrigerator for a local store….”LCL” B&A style.)

Another thing I do not really understand (there are many) is the relationship between package cars and REA. I realize they were separate operations, REA being passenger train oriented but I have seen minor references to shipments being transferred between the two.

Ike


moderated Re: Southern "Package Car" Services

Dick Fisher
 

I'm not sure.

Dick


On 10/16/2018 2:27 PM, George Eichelberger wrote:
Jack and Dick:

Great information!….

Dick: Do you remember if your shipments went out on the PRR or B&O?

I have always known about package cars but did not realize how significant the business was. I am not clear on the distinction between “package cars” and “LCL” traffic. Package cars originated and terminated at company freight houses, where LCL could (Pls correct me somebody if I’m wrong) be loaded at more than one location for shippers and receivers that had less than carload shipments.

Package cars could make intermediate stops. It was apparently up to the train crew to load and unload shipments along line of road. Some of the local locations were not much more than bus stop (“wait shed”) with a closet. Gurnee Jct, AL (attached) was basically just the “closet”. (I was “working” (as much as a forth grader could) on the Baltimore and Annapolis one day about 1955 when we stopped at the depot in Glen Burnie. The crew opened the door on a B&O box car, the freight room depot door, set a bridge plate between the doors and unloaded a new refrigerator for a local store….”LCL” B&A style.)

Another thing I do not really understand (there are many) is the relationship between package cars and REA. I realize they were separate operations, REA being passenger train oriented but I have seen minor references to shipments being transferred between the two.

Ike



moderated Re: Southern "Package Car" Services

D. Scott Chatfield
 

At some point Sears moved its business over to its trucking subsidiary, Terminal Freight.  Remember the baby blue trailers?  We handled quite a few trailers for them into Atlanta, although I don't recall which train(s).  TF's facility was at the corner of Marietta and Ashby Streets, across from King Plow.  Building is still there.


Scott Chatfield

moderated SOU Directory of Industries (was Re: [SouthernRailway] Southern "Package Car" Services)

mike turner
 

Dumb question of the day: where might one find a copy of SOU directories of industries? Specific interest is circa 1950 but any year would be helpful. Thx.

Mike Turner

MP-Z35

On 10/16/2018 11:57 AM, C J Wyatt wrote:
Ike,
...
The Southern Railway directory of Industries which was printed around 1938 has ten pages of the package car routes for the various freight houses on the system.
...
Jack 

moderated Re: SOU Directory of Industries (was Re: [SouthernRailway] Southern "Package Car" Services)

Robert Hanson
 

They occasionally show up at railroad memorabilia shows, but when they do, they aren't cheap.  The last one I saw (circa 1930) changed hands at something over $100.

You also might monitor ebay.


Bob Hanson


-----Original Message-----
From: mike turner <yardcoolie1968@...>
To: main <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io>
Sent: Tue, Oct 16, 2018 4:37 pm
Subject: SOU Directory of Industries (was Re: [SouthernRailway] Southern "Package Car" Services)

Dumb question of the day: where might one find a copy of SOU directories of industries? Specific interest is circa 1950 but any year would be helpful. Thx.
Mike Turner
MP-Z35
On 10/16/2018 11:57 AM, C J Wyatt wrote:
Ike,
...
The Southern Railway directory of Industries which was printed around 1938 has ten pages of the package car routes for the various freight houses on the system.
...
Jack 

moderated Re: SOU Directory of Industries (was Re: [SouthernRailway] Southern "Package Car" Services)

Robert Hanson
 

Another thought, Mike - 

If you're interested in a specific location - i e, Atlanta, Charlotte, etc. - a directory from a connecting line would contain the same information.  Such directories usually give the name of the firm, what they ship/receive, on what line they're located, and whether or not they're open to reciprocal switching.  That information doesn't change from railroad to railroad.

Bob Hanson


-----Original Message-----
From: mike turner <yardcoolie1968@...>
To: main <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io>
Sent: Tue, Oct 16, 2018 4:37 pm
Subject: SOU Directory of Industries (was Re: [SouthernRailway] Southern "Package Car" Services)

Dumb question of the day: where might one find a copy of SOU directories of industries? Specific interest is circa 1950 but any year would be helpful. Thx.
Mike Turner
MP-Z35
On 10/16/2018 11:57 AM, C J Wyatt wrote:
Ike,
...
The Southern Railway directory of Industries which was printed around 1938 has ten pages of the package car routes for the various freight houses on the system.
...
Jack 

moderated Re: SOU Directory of Industries (was Re: [SouthernRailway] Southern "Package Car" Services)

D. Scott Chatfield
 

It appears that most of the large railroads published a "Directory of Industries" circa 1940, and they often included a lot of info about the cities served as well.  An absolute gold mine of info.

My undated L&N Directory (but obviously circa 1940) also gives daily output figures for many of the coal mines they served, and also lists many industries that they served through team tracks or through reciprocal switching arrangements.

Ted Schnepf in Chicago-land sells copies of several railroads' directories but I don't think he has the Southern's.  I'm going to let him copy my L&N.

Also, the archives has a Xerox copy of the original Norfolk Southern's directory.  Hopefully I marked which box it's in ....


Scott Chatfield

moderated Re: Southern "Package Car" Services

A&Y Dave in MD
 

The Southern conductor wheel reports for the Winston-Salem division in 1934 show a routine set of four 36’ house cars that are opened at every major station on the route to Elkins. Al Brown and I suspected they were lcl or package cars from the pattern.  Would that be of interest? I can share pdf files of the logs and the excel transcription of all the trains.

Dave

Sent from Dave Bott' iPhone

On Oct 16, 2018, at 9:43 AM, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:

With SEARS bankruptcy in the news, it may be interesting to mention how "big" they were in the Southern's LCL business. SEARS had a distribution facility on the Southern belt line in Atlanta. The (large) building still exists and I expect the ROW of the tracks into it off the Southern are still visible. In addition to the Southern's own freight houses in Atlanta, plus Inman Transfer, (a FedEx like hub at Inman Yard) package cars were loaded by SEARS at their facility and left on scheduled freight trains every week day.

If you look at many photos of SR steam era freights, you may notice a group, of Southern 40' box cars directly behind the engine. While SR freights had a high percentage of home road cars, seeing six, eight or a dozen together on the front of a train defied what would be expected out of a classification yard such as Inman. A reason was that scheduled afternoon departures from Atlanta (and Knoxville and Spencer) would depart the yard then make a pickup as they passed the different freight houses. In turn, the Southern used only SR 36', 40' and then 50' box cars for the service. All of the large freight houses had multiple tracks accessed from the same platforms. To make that work, all car doors were opened and aligned so bridges could be used between cars on different tracks. Everything was handled by men with hand-trucks so the system worked. When cut-off time for shipments came, the bridges were removed and doors were closed.

Depending on the day of the week, as many as 50 package cars left Atlanta every evening. The SEARS cars for Florida would be in Jacksonville the next morning with some passed to the FEC, ACL and SAL.

Here are two items that will be included in a package car article being researched for TIES. We have two complete package car schedules in the SRHA archives, if anyone can copy or donate anything on the subject they may have, we'll use it in the article.

Ike
<Aug 1927 package car directory Eastern terr to SR.jpg>
<SNB 1_28 Package Svc 1.jpg>

moderated Re: Southern "Package Car" Services

A&Y Dave in MD
 

I have Greensboro maps from Marvin Black and Greensboro library plus the ICC blueprints depicting the Sears catalog distribution center if you need them for the article too. 

Dave

Sent from Dave Bott' iPhone

On Oct 16, 2018, at 2:08 PM, Bill Schafer <bill4501@...> wrote:

Sears had a large rail-served facility north of downtown Greensboro, not far from my trackside apartment, that still loaded or received 40’ boxcars, and was switched by a local switch engine in the morning. IIRC, the cars were taken to/brought from Pomona, where they may (not entirely sure) have been added to the Western Carloading pickup. 

moderated Re: Southern "Package Car" Services

George Eichelberger
 

Dave:

It’s not scanned (should be) but I will look for the two Package Car directories we have. There was probably a package car out of Spencer transfer, maybe more than one depending on how much business there was on the route. For shipments west, we may find a car out of Sevier Transfer?
Ike


On Oct 16, 2018, at 8:56 PM, A&Y Dave in MD <dbott@...> wrote:

The Southern conductor wheel reports for the Winston-Salem division in 1934 show a routine set of four 36’ house cars that are opened at every major station on the route to Elkins. Al Brown and I suspected they were lcl or package cars from the pattern.  Would that be of interest? I can share pdf files of the logs and the excel transcription of all the trains.

Dave

Sent from Dave Bott' iPhone

On Oct 16, 2018, at 9:43 AM, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:

With SEARS bankruptcy in the news, it may be interesting to mention how "big" they were in the Southern's LCL business. SEARS had a distribution facility on the Southern belt line in Atlanta. The (large) building still exists and I expect the ROW of the tracks into it off the Southern are still visible. In addition to the Southern's own freight houses in Atlanta, plus Inman Transfer, (a FedEx like hub at Inman Yard) package cars were loaded by SEARS at their facility and left on scheduled freight trains every week day.

If you look at many photos of SR steam era freights, you may notice a group, of Southern 40' box cars directly behind the engine. While SR freights had a high percentage of home road cars, seeing six, eight or a dozen together on the front of a train defied what would be expected out of a classification yard such as Inman. A reason was that scheduled afternoon departures from Atlanta (and Knoxville and Spencer) would depart the yard then make a pickup as they passed the different freight houses. In turn, the Southern used only SR 36', 40' and then 50' box cars for the service. All of the large freight houses had multiple tracks accessed from the same platforms. To make that work, all car doors were opened and aligned so bridges could be used between cars on different tracks. Everything was handled by men with hand-trucks so the system worked. When cut-off time for shipments came, the bridges were removed and doors were closed.

Depending on the day of the week, as many as 50 package cars left Atlanta every evening. The SEARS cars for Florida would be in Jacksonville the next morning with some passed to the FEC, ACL and SAL.

Here are two items that will be included in a package car article being researched for TIES. We have two complete package car schedules in the SRHA archives, if anyone can copy or donate anything on the subject they may have, we'll use it in the article.

Ike
<Aug 1927 package car directory Eastern terr to SR.jpg>
<SNB 1_28 Package Svc 1.jpg>

moderated Peddler Cars

George Eichelberger
 

There was another very obscure "local" freight service that I have only seen in the Southern's tariff. Assuming the name describes the service "Peddler Cars" were (I assume) cars that were set out along the railroad to sell whatever was in them, the 1920s version of a "truckload sale"? The only example I can think of would be something like cast iron stoves. Sell some, then move to the next town and sell some more?

Is anyone familiar with the term or know of any SR examples?

Ike

moderated Re: Peddler Cars

C J Wyatt
 

Ike, a peddler car was the package/LCL car on a local or way freight which was used for picking up and leaving LCL shipments at the local stations.

Jack



From: George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...>
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2018 9:17 PM
Subject: [SouthernRailway] Peddler Cars

There was another very obscure "local" freight service that I have only seen in the Southern's tariff. Assuming the name describes the service "Peddler Cars" were (I assume) cars that were set out along the railroad to sell whatever was in them, the 1920s version of a "truckload sale"? The only example I can think of would be something like cast iron stoves. Sell some, then move to the next town and sell some more?

Is anyone familiar with the term or know of any SR examples?

Ike


moderated Re: Peddler Cars

Robert Hanson
 

Ike - 

Unless I'm mistaken, a peddler car is a car loaded with LCL freight for various points along a run.  As I understand it, these cars were usually placed right behind the locomotive and were set off on the house track of a depot for unloading by the agent/clerk/freighthouse porter while the train crew switched carload freight at local industries.

When the switching was done, the crew re-assembled their train, with the peddler car tucked in behind the locomotive, and they moved on to the next stop where the procedure was repeated.

That's how I understand the procedure, but if anyone has additional information, I'm open to correction.

Bob Hanson



-----Original Message-----
From: George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...>
To: main <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io>
Sent: Tue, Oct 16, 2018 9:17 pm
Subject: [SouthernRailway] Peddler Cars

There was another very obscure "local" freight service that I have only seen in the Southern's tariff. Assuming the name describes the service "Peddler Cars" were (I assume) cars that were set out along the railroad to sell whatever was in them, the 1920s version of a "truckload sale"? The only example I can think of would be something like cast iron stoves. Sell some, then move to the next town and sell some more?

Is anyone familiar with the term or know of any SR examples?

Ike

moderated Re: Peddler Cars

mike turner
 

Ok, going for a second dumb question of the day:

if the peddler car immediately followed the engine and was dropped at the depot, was the caboose spotted anywhere in particular? A slight familiarity with another rr's practice prompted this question.

Thx.

Mike Turner

MP-Z35

moderated Re: Peddler Cars

George Eichelberger
 

These explanations about Peddler cars make sense, except, why would they have a tariff filed for LCL traffic that already had its own waybills? If the car was operated by the Southern, obviously it was, it would not need to be covered with another freight tariff?

And…references to multi stop package cars do not use the term “peddler”.

It will be a bit of a zoo with everything going on but I will see if I can locate the “Peddler” tariff when we unpack at Chattanooga this weekend. It might explain itself. Everyone is welcome to come and help! Several people are driving up from Atlanta Friday and/or Saturday.

Ike


On Oct 16, 2018, at 9:28 PM, Robert Hanson via Groups.Io <RHanson669@...> wrote:

Ike - 

Unless I'm mistaken, a peddler car is a car loaded with LCL freight for various points along a run.  As I understand it, these cars were usually placed right behind the locomotive and were set off on the house track of a depot for unloading by the agent/clerk/freighthouse porter while the train crew switched carload freight at local industries.

When the switching was done, the crew re-assembled their train, with the peddler car tucked in behind the locomotive, and they moved on to the next stop where the procedure was repeated.

That's how I understand the procedure, but if anyone has additional information, I'm open to correction.

Bob Hanson



-----Original Message-----
From: George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...>
To: main <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io>
Sent: Tue, Oct 16, 2018 9:17 pm
Subject: [SouthernRailway] Peddler Cars

There was another very obscure "local" freight service that I have only seen in the Southern's tariff. Assuming the name describes the service "Peddler Cars" were (I assume) cars that were set out along the railroad to sell whatever was in them, the 1920s version of a "truckload sale"? The only example I can think of would be something like cast iron stoves. Sell some, then move to the next town and sell some more?

Is anyone familiar with the term or know of any SR examples?

Ike

moderated Re: SOU Directory of Industries (was Re: [SouthernRailway] Southern "Package Car" Services)

C J Wyatt
 

There was a copy in the library at Kennesaw. I don't know if it came with us to Chattanooga.

I have a copy myself.

Jack


From: mike turner <yardcoolie1968@...>
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2018 4:37 PM
Subject: SOU Directory of Industries (was Re: [SouthernRailway] Southern "Package Car" Services)

Dumb question of the day: where might one find a copy of SOU directories of industries? Specific interest is circa 1950 but any year would be helpful. Thx.
Mike Turner
MP-Z35
On 10/16/2018 11:57 AM, C J Wyatt wrote:
Ike,
...
The Southern Railway directory of Industries which was printed around 1938 has ten pages of the package car routes for the various freight houses on the system.
...
Jack 



moderated Re: Peddler Cars

George Eichelberger
 

Mike:

I’d expect local conditions, and what the Conductor wanted to do, dictated how package and LCL cars were handled at different towns. Quite a few of our depot photos show a box car sitting on house tracks. David Driscoll photos show cabs parked at the freight house at Reidsville, NC. With the large American Tobacco plant, there would have been a lot of local switching there.

We need a first hand account from a SR train crew member of the period.

Ike

On Oct 16, 2018, at 10:10 PM, mike turner <yardcoolie1968@...> wrote:

Ok, going for a second dumb question of the day:

if the peddler car immediately followed the engine and was dropped at the depot, was the caboose spotted anywhere in particular? A slight familiarity with another rr's practice prompted this question.

Thx.

Mike Turner

MP-Z35

moderated Re: Peddler Cars

C J Wyatt
 

I am not seeing what your point is. I would think that each package gets a waybill. All of the waybills for packages handled in a given car would be bundled together by the clerks and conductor, I believe.

Multi stop sounds like a car loaded by a shipper with shipments for several consignees at different locations.

Jack



From: George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...>
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2018 10:32 PM
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Peddler Cars

These explanations about Peddler cars make sense, except, why would they have a tariff filed for LCL traffic that already had its own waybills? If the car was operated by the Southern, obviously it was, it would not need to be covered with another freight tariff?

And…references to multi stop package cars do not use the term “peddler”.

It will be a bit of a zoo with everything going on but I will see if I can locate the “Peddler” tariff when we unpack at Chattanooga this weekend. It might explain itself. Everyone is welcome to come and help! Several people are driving up from Atlanta Friday and/or Saturday.

Ike


On Oct 16, 2018, at 9:28 PM, Robert Hanson via Groups.Io <RHanson669@...> wrote:

Ike - 

Unless I'm mistaken, a peddler car is a car loaded with LCL freight for various points along a run.  As I understand it, these cars were usually placed right behind the locomotive and were set off on the house track of a depot for unloading by the agent/clerk/freighthouse porter while the train crew switched carload freight at local industries.

When the switching was done, the crew re-assembled their train, with the peddler car tucked in behind the locomotive, and they moved on to the next stop where the procedure was repeated.

That's how I understand the procedure, but if anyone has additional information, I'm open to correction.

Bob Hanson



-----Original Message-----
From: George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...>
To: main <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io>
Sent: Tue, Oct 16, 2018 9:17 pm
Subject: [SouthernRailway] Peddler Cars

There was another very obscure "local" freight service that I have only seen in the Southern's tariff. Assuming the name describes the service "Peddler Cars" were (I assume) cars that were set out along the railroad to sell whatever was in them, the 1920s version of a "truckload sale"? The only example I can think of would be something like cast iron stoves. Sell some, then move to the next town and sell some more?

Is anyone familiar with the term or know of any SR examples?

Ike



moderated Re: Peddler Cars

Ed Mims
 

I suspect LCL, Package Car and Peddler might have all been the same. I'm not at all familial with this practice but I know train crews and other railroad employees had their own vocabulary. This vocabulary varied railroad to railroad and even on different regions of the same railroad, so if it is not defined by a traffic, it might just be railroad slang. As far as how these cars were handled, I'm sure this also varied depending on the items to be handled (unloaded or loaded) at local stations and the station track arrangement among other things. These are just thoughts--speculation on my part.

Ed Mims

-----Original Message-----
From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io [mailto:main@SouthernRailway.groups.io] On Behalf Of George Eichelberger
Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2018 10:44 PM
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Peddler Cars

Mike:

I’d expect local conditions, and what the Conductor wanted to do, dictated how package and LCL cars were handled at different towns. Quite a few of our depot photos show a box car sitting on house tracks. David Driscoll photos show cabs parked at the freight house at Reidsville, NC. With the large American Tobacco plant, there would have been a lot of local switching there.

We need a first hand account from a SR train crew member of the period.

Ike



On Oct 16, 2018, at 10:10 PM, mike turner <yardcoolie1968@...> wrote:

Ok, going for a second dumb question of the day:

if the peddler car immediately followed the engine and was dropped at the depot, was the caboose spotted anywhere in particular? A slight familiarity with another rr's practice prompted this question.

Thx.

Mike Turner

MP-Z35