Date   
moderated Re: SOU Directory of Industries (was Re: [SouthernRailway] Southern "Package Car" Services)

D. Scott Chatfield
 

It appears that most of the large railroads published a "Directory of Industries" circa 1940, and they often included a lot of info about the cities served as well.  An absolute gold mine of info.

My undated L&N Directory (but obviously circa 1940) also gives daily output figures for many of the coal mines they served, and also lists many industries that they served through team tracks or through reciprocal switching arrangements.

Ted Schnepf in Chicago-land sells copies of several railroads' directories but I don't think he has the Southern's.  I'm going to let him copy my L&N.

Also, the archives has a Xerox copy of the original Norfolk Southern's directory.  Hopefully I marked which box it's in ....


Scott Chatfield

moderated Re: Southern "Package Car" Services

A&Y Dave in MD
 

The Southern conductor wheel reports for the Winston-Salem division in 1934 show a routine set of four 36’ house cars that are opened at every major station on the route to Elkins. Al Brown and I suspected they were lcl or package cars from the pattern.  Would that be of interest? I can share pdf files of the logs and the excel transcription of all the trains.

Dave

Sent from Dave Bott' iPhone

On Oct 16, 2018, at 9:43 AM, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:

With SEARS bankruptcy in the news, it may be interesting to mention how "big" they were in the Southern's LCL business. SEARS had a distribution facility on the Southern belt line in Atlanta. The (large) building still exists and I expect the ROW of the tracks into it off the Southern are still visible. In addition to the Southern's own freight houses in Atlanta, plus Inman Transfer, (a FedEx like hub at Inman Yard) package cars were loaded by SEARS at their facility and left on scheduled freight trains every week day.

If you look at many photos of SR steam era freights, you may notice a group, of Southern 40' box cars directly behind the engine. While SR freights had a high percentage of home road cars, seeing six, eight or a dozen together on the front of a train defied what would be expected out of a classification yard such as Inman. A reason was that scheduled afternoon departures from Atlanta (and Knoxville and Spencer) would depart the yard then make a pickup as they passed the different freight houses. In turn, the Southern used only SR 36', 40' and then 50' box cars for the service. All of the large freight houses had multiple tracks accessed from the same platforms. To make that work, all car doors were opened and aligned so bridges could be used between cars on different tracks. Everything was handled by men with hand-trucks so the system worked. When cut-off time for shipments came, the bridges were removed and doors were closed.

Depending on the day of the week, as many as 50 package cars left Atlanta every evening. The SEARS cars for Florida would be in Jacksonville the next morning with some passed to the FEC, ACL and SAL.

Here are two items that will be included in a package car article being researched for TIES. We have two complete package car schedules in the SRHA archives, if anyone can copy or donate anything on the subject they may have, we'll use it in the article.

Ike
<Aug 1927 package car directory Eastern terr to SR.jpg>
<SNB 1_28 Package Svc 1.jpg>

moderated Re: Southern "Package Car" Services

A&Y Dave in MD
 

I have Greensboro maps from Marvin Black and Greensboro library plus the ICC blueprints depicting the Sears catalog distribution center if you need them for the article too. 

Dave

Sent from Dave Bott' iPhone

On Oct 16, 2018, at 2:08 PM, Bill Schafer <bill4501@...> wrote:

Sears had a large rail-served facility north of downtown Greensboro, not far from my trackside apartment, that still loaded or received 40’ boxcars, and was switched by a local switch engine in the morning. IIRC, the cars were taken to/brought from Pomona, where they may (not entirely sure) have been added to the Western Carloading pickup. 

moderated Re: Southern "Package Car" Services

George Eichelberger
 

Dave:

It’s not scanned (should be) but I will look for the two Package Car directories we have. There was probably a package car out of Spencer transfer, maybe more than one depending on how much business there was on the route. For shipments west, we may find a car out of Sevier Transfer?
Ike


On Oct 16, 2018, at 8:56 PM, A&Y Dave in MD <dbott@...> wrote:

The Southern conductor wheel reports for the Winston-Salem division in 1934 show a routine set of four 36’ house cars that are opened at every major station on the route to Elkins. Al Brown and I suspected they were lcl or package cars from the pattern.  Would that be of interest? I can share pdf files of the logs and the excel transcription of all the trains.

Dave

Sent from Dave Bott' iPhone

On Oct 16, 2018, at 9:43 AM, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:

With SEARS bankruptcy in the news, it may be interesting to mention how "big" they were in the Southern's LCL business. SEARS had a distribution facility on the Southern belt line in Atlanta. The (large) building still exists and I expect the ROW of the tracks into it off the Southern are still visible. In addition to the Southern's own freight houses in Atlanta, plus Inman Transfer, (a FedEx like hub at Inman Yard) package cars were loaded by SEARS at their facility and left on scheduled freight trains every week day.

If you look at many photos of SR steam era freights, you may notice a group, of Southern 40' box cars directly behind the engine. While SR freights had a high percentage of home road cars, seeing six, eight or a dozen together on the front of a train defied what would be expected out of a classification yard such as Inman. A reason was that scheduled afternoon departures from Atlanta (and Knoxville and Spencer) would depart the yard then make a pickup as they passed the different freight houses. In turn, the Southern used only SR 36', 40' and then 50' box cars for the service. All of the large freight houses had multiple tracks accessed from the same platforms. To make that work, all car doors were opened and aligned so bridges could be used between cars on different tracks. Everything was handled by men with hand-trucks so the system worked. When cut-off time for shipments came, the bridges were removed and doors were closed.

Depending on the day of the week, as many as 50 package cars left Atlanta every evening. The SEARS cars for Florida would be in Jacksonville the next morning with some passed to the FEC, ACL and SAL.

Here are two items that will be included in a package car article being researched for TIES. We have two complete package car schedules in the SRHA archives, if anyone can copy or donate anything on the subject they may have, we'll use it in the article.

Ike
<Aug 1927 package car directory Eastern terr to SR.jpg>
<SNB 1_28 Package Svc 1.jpg>

moderated Peddler Cars

George Eichelberger
 

There was another very obscure "local" freight service that I have only seen in the Southern's tariff. Assuming the name describes the service "Peddler Cars" were (I assume) cars that were set out along the railroad to sell whatever was in them, the 1920s version of a "truckload sale"? The only example I can think of would be something like cast iron stoves. Sell some, then move to the next town and sell some more?

Is anyone familiar with the term or know of any SR examples?

Ike

moderated Re: Peddler Cars

C J Wyatt
 

Ike, a peddler car was the package/LCL car on a local or way freight which was used for picking up and leaving LCL shipments at the local stations.

Jack



From: George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...>
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2018 9:17 PM
Subject: [SouthernRailway] Peddler Cars

There was another very obscure "local" freight service that I have only seen in the Southern's tariff. Assuming the name describes the service "Peddler Cars" were (I assume) cars that were set out along the railroad to sell whatever was in them, the 1920s version of a "truckload sale"? The only example I can think of would be something like cast iron stoves. Sell some, then move to the next town and sell some more?

Is anyone familiar with the term or know of any SR examples?

Ike


moderated Re: Peddler Cars

Robert Hanson
 

Ike - 

Unless I'm mistaken, a peddler car is a car loaded with LCL freight for various points along a run.  As I understand it, these cars were usually placed right behind the locomotive and were set off on the house track of a depot for unloading by the agent/clerk/freighthouse porter while the train crew switched carload freight at local industries.

When the switching was done, the crew re-assembled their train, with the peddler car tucked in behind the locomotive, and they moved on to the next stop where the procedure was repeated.

That's how I understand the procedure, but if anyone has additional information, I'm open to correction.

Bob Hanson



-----Original Message-----
From: George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...>
To: main <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io>
Sent: Tue, Oct 16, 2018 9:17 pm
Subject: [SouthernRailway] Peddler Cars

There was another very obscure "local" freight service that I have only seen in the Southern's tariff. Assuming the name describes the service "Peddler Cars" were (I assume) cars that were set out along the railroad to sell whatever was in them, the 1920s version of a "truckload sale"? The only example I can think of would be something like cast iron stoves. Sell some, then move to the next town and sell some more?

Is anyone familiar with the term or know of any SR examples?

Ike

moderated Re: Peddler Cars

mike turner
 

Ok, going for a second dumb question of the day:

if the peddler car immediately followed the engine and was dropped at the depot, was the caboose spotted anywhere in particular? A slight familiarity with another rr's practice prompted this question.

Thx.

Mike Turner

MP-Z35

moderated Re: Peddler Cars

George Eichelberger
 

These explanations about Peddler cars make sense, except, why would they have a tariff filed for LCL traffic that already had its own waybills? If the car was operated by the Southern, obviously it was, it would not need to be covered with another freight tariff?

And…references to multi stop package cars do not use the term “peddler”.

It will be a bit of a zoo with everything going on but I will see if I can locate the “Peddler” tariff when we unpack at Chattanooga this weekend. It might explain itself. Everyone is welcome to come and help! Several people are driving up from Atlanta Friday and/or Saturday.

Ike


On Oct 16, 2018, at 9:28 PM, Robert Hanson via Groups.Io <RHanson669@...> wrote:

Ike - 

Unless I'm mistaken, a peddler car is a car loaded with LCL freight for various points along a run.  As I understand it, these cars were usually placed right behind the locomotive and were set off on the house track of a depot for unloading by the agent/clerk/freighthouse porter while the train crew switched carload freight at local industries.

When the switching was done, the crew re-assembled their train, with the peddler car tucked in behind the locomotive, and they moved on to the next stop where the procedure was repeated.

That's how I understand the procedure, but if anyone has additional information, I'm open to correction.

Bob Hanson



-----Original Message-----
From: George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...>
To: main <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io>
Sent: Tue, Oct 16, 2018 9:17 pm
Subject: [SouthernRailway] Peddler Cars

There was another very obscure "local" freight service that I have only seen in the Southern's tariff. Assuming the name describes the service "Peddler Cars" were (I assume) cars that were set out along the railroad to sell whatever was in them, the 1920s version of a "truckload sale"? The only example I can think of would be something like cast iron stoves. Sell some, then move to the next town and sell some more?

Is anyone familiar with the term or know of any SR examples?

Ike

moderated Re: SOU Directory of Industries (was Re: [SouthernRailway] Southern "Package Car" Services)

C J Wyatt
 

There was a copy in the library at Kennesaw. I don't know if it came with us to Chattanooga.

I have a copy myself.

Jack


From: mike turner <yardcoolie1968@...>
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2018 4:37 PM
Subject: SOU Directory of Industries (was Re: [SouthernRailway] Southern "Package Car" Services)

Dumb question of the day: where might one find a copy of SOU directories of industries? Specific interest is circa 1950 but any year would be helpful. Thx.
Mike Turner
MP-Z35
On 10/16/2018 11:57 AM, C J Wyatt wrote:
Ike,
...
The Southern Railway directory of Industries which was printed around 1938 has ten pages of the package car routes for the various freight houses on the system.
...
Jack 



moderated Re: Peddler Cars

George Eichelberger
 

Mike:

I’d expect local conditions, and what the Conductor wanted to do, dictated how package and LCL cars were handled at different towns. Quite a few of our depot photos show a box car sitting on house tracks. David Driscoll photos show cabs parked at the freight house at Reidsville, NC. With the large American Tobacco plant, there would have been a lot of local switching there.

We need a first hand account from a SR train crew member of the period.

Ike

On Oct 16, 2018, at 10:10 PM, mike turner <yardcoolie1968@...> wrote:

Ok, going for a second dumb question of the day:

if the peddler car immediately followed the engine and was dropped at the depot, was the caboose spotted anywhere in particular? A slight familiarity with another rr's practice prompted this question.

Thx.

Mike Turner

MP-Z35

moderated Re: Peddler Cars

C J Wyatt
 

I am not seeing what your point is. I would think that each package gets a waybill. All of the waybills for packages handled in a given car would be bundled together by the clerks and conductor, I believe.

Multi stop sounds like a car loaded by a shipper with shipments for several consignees at different locations.

Jack



From: George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...>
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2018 10:32 PM
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Peddler Cars

These explanations about Peddler cars make sense, except, why would they have a tariff filed for LCL traffic that already had its own waybills? If the car was operated by the Southern, obviously it was, it would not need to be covered with another freight tariff?

And…references to multi stop package cars do not use the term “peddler”.

It will be a bit of a zoo with everything going on but I will see if I can locate the “Peddler” tariff when we unpack at Chattanooga this weekend. It might explain itself. Everyone is welcome to come and help! Several people are driving up from Atlanta Friday and/or Saturday.

Ike


On Oct 16, 2018, at 9:28 PM, Robert Hanson via Groups.Io <RHanson669@...> wrote:

Ike - 

Unless I'm mistaken, a peddler car is a car loaded with LCL freight for various points along a run.  As I understand it, these cars were usually placed right behind the locomotive and were set off on the house track of a depot for unloading by the agent/clerk/freighthouse porter while the train crew switched carload freight at local industries.

When the switching was done, the crew re-assembled their train, with the peddler car tucked in behind the locomotive, and they moved on to the next stop where the procedure was repeated.

That's how I understand the procedure, but if anyone has additional information, I'm open to correction.

Bob Hanson



-----Original Message-----
From: George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...>
To: main <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io>
Sent: Tue, Oct 16, 2018 9:17 pm
Subject: [SouthernRailway] Peddler Cars

There was another very obscure "local" freight service that I have only seen in the Southern's tariff. Assuming the name describes the service "Peddler Cars" were (I assume) cars that were set out along the railroad to sell whatever was in them, the 1920s version of a "truckload sale"? The only example I can think of would be something like cast iron stoves. Sell some, then move to the next town and sell some more?

Is anyone familiar with the term or know of any SR examples?

Ike



moderated Re: Peddler Cars

Ed Mims
 

I suspect LCL, Package Car and Peddler might have all been the same. I'm not at all familial with this practice but I know train crews and other railroad employees had their own vocabulary. This vocabulary varied railroad to railroad and even on different regions of the same railroad, so if it is not defined by a traffic, it might just be railroad slang. As far as how these cars were handled, I'm sure this also varied depending on the items to be handled (unloaded or loaded) at local stations and the station track arrangement among other things. These are just thoughts--speculation on my part.

Ed Mims

-----Original Message-----
From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io [mailto:main@SouthernRailway.groups.io] On Behalf Of George Eichelberger
Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2018 10:44 PM
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Peddler Cars

Mike:

I’d expect local conditions, and what the Conductor wanted to do, dictated how package and LCL cars were handled at different towns. Quite a few of our depot photos show a box car sitting on house tracks. David Driscoll photos show cabs parked at the freight house at Reidsville, NC. With the large American Tobacco plant, there would have been a lot of local switching there.

We need a first hand account from a SR train crew member of the period.

Ike



On Oct 16, 2018, at 10:10 PM, mike turner <yardcoolie1968@...> wrote:

Ok, going for a second dumb question of the day:

if the peddler car immediately followed the engine and was dropped at the depot, was the caboose spotted anywhere in particular? A slight familiarity with another rr's practice prompted this question.

Thx.

Mike Turner

MP-Z35

moderated Re: Peddler Cars

Robert Hanson
 

Mike - 

My description of the process was as I understand it.  The car could have been spotted next to the caboose, but the article in a very old Trains Magazine that I recalled had it next to the locomotive for easy spotting..  As to where the cab was spotted - anywhere out of the way of the switching moves, I suppose.

Short answer - I don't know that there was any set location to leave the caboose while switching.

Bob Hanson


-----Original Message-----
From: mike turner <yardcoolie1968@...>
To: main <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io>
Sent: Tue, Oct 16, 2018 10:11 pm
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Peddler Cars

Ok, going for a second dumb question of the day:

if the peddler car immediately followed the engine and was dropped at
the depot, was the caboose spotted anywhere in particular? A slight
familiarity with another rr's practice prompted this question.

Thx.

Mike Turner

MP-Z35




moderated Re: Peddler Cars

Robert Hanson
 

Ike - 

I cannot address the "Peddler" tariff.  Never seen one.  LCL traffic was frequently covered in separate tariffs from carload traffic.

"Peddler" cars and local freight trains were commonly used terms for these services.  Not necessarily the formal terms.

I'm working from information acquired by reading, not experience, as LCL business was all but gone by the time I went to work in 1970.  A few vestiges remained, as Bill said earlier, but the service was essentially gone by this time.

Bob


-----Original Message-----
From: George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...>
To: main <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io>
Sent: Tue, Oct 16, 2018 10:32 pm
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Peddler Cars

These explanations about Peddler cars make sense, except, why would they have a tariff filed for LCL traffic that already had its own waybills? If the car was operated by the Southern, obviously it was, it would not need to be covered with another freight tariff?

And…references to multi stop package cars do not use the term “peddler”.

It will be a bit of a zoo with everything going on but I will see if I can locate the “Peddler” tariff when we unpack at Chattanooga this weekend. It might explain itself. Everyone is welcome to come and help! Several people are driving up from Atlanta Friday and/or Saturday.

Ike


On Oct 16, 2018, at 9:28 PM, Robert Hanson via Groups.Io <RHanson669@...> wrote:

Ike - 

Unless I'm mistaken, a peddler car is a car loaded with LCL freight for various points along a run.  As I understand it, these cars were usually placed right behind the locomotive and were set off on the house track of a depot for unloading by the agent/clerk/freighthouse porter while the train crew switched carload freight at local industries.

When the switching was done, the crew re-assembled their train, with the peddler car tucked in behind the locomotive, and they moved on to the next stop where the procedure was repeated.

That's how I understand the procedure, but if anyone has additional information, I'm open to correction.

Bob Hanson



-----Original Message-----
From: George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...>
To: main <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io>
Sent: Tue, Oct 16, 2018 9:17 pm
Subject: [SouthernRailway] Peddler Cars

There was another very obscure "local" freight service that I have only seen in the Southern's tariff. Assuming the name describes the service "Peddler Cars" were (I assume) cars that were set out along the railroad to sell whatever was in them, the 1920s version of a "truckload sale"? The only example I can think of would be something like cast iron stoves. Sell some, then move to the next town and sell some more?

Is anyone familiar with the term or know of any SR examples?

Ike

moderated Re: Peddler Cars

C J Wyatt
 

Another term was "trap car". Apparently it was a car loaded at a manufacturer or warehouse and sent to the transfer or freight house for further forwarding of the LCL shipments.

I am attaching an interesting, one page, clinic handout which I found online.

Jack
,


From: Robert Hanson via Groups.Io <RHanson669@...>
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io
Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2018 9:15 AM
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Peddler Cars

Ike - 

I cannot address the "Peddler" tariff.  Never seen one.  LCL traffic was frequently covered in separate tariffs from carload traffic.

"Peddler" cars and local freight trains were commonly used terms for these services.  Not necessarily the formal terms.

I'm working from information acquired by reading, not experience, as LCL business was all but gone by the time I went to work in 1970.  A few vestiges remained, as Bill said earlier, but the service was essentially gone by this time.

Bob


-----Original Message-----
From: George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...>
To: main <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io>
Sent: Tue, Oct 16, 2018 10:32 pm
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Peddler Cars

These explanations about Peddler cars make sense, except, why would they have a tariff filed for LCL traffic that already had its own waybills? If the car was operated by the Southern, obviously it was, it would not need to be covered with another freight tariff?

And…references to multi stop package cars do not use the term “peddler”.

It will be a bit of a zoo with everything going on but I will see if I can locate the “Peddler” tariff when we unpack at Chattanooga this weekend. It might explain itself. Everyone is welcome to come and help! Several people are driving up from Atlanta Friday and/or Saturday.

Ike


On Oct 16, 2018, at 9:28 PM, Robert Hanson via Groups.Io <RHanson669@...> wrote:

Ike - 

Unless I'm mistaken, a peddler car is a car loaded with LCL freight for various points along a run.  As I understand it, these cars were usually placed right behind the locomotive and were set off on the house track of a depot for unloading by the agent/clerk/freighthouse porter while the train crew switched carload freight at local industries.

When the switching was done, the crew re-assembled their train, with the peddler car tucked in behind the locomotive, and they moved on to the next stop where the procedure was repeated.

That's how I understand the procedure, but if anyone has additional information, I'm open to correction.

Bob Hanson



-----Original Message-----
From: George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...>
To: main <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io>
Sent: Tue, Oct 16, 2018 9:17 pm
Subject: [SouthernRailway] Peddler Cars

There was another very obscure "local" freight service that I have only seen in the Southern's tariff. Assuming the name describes the service "Peddler Cars" were (I assume) cars that were set out along the railroad to sell whatever was in them, the 1920s version of a "truckload sale"? The only example I can think of would be something like cast iron stoves. Sell some, then move to the next town and sell some more?

Is anyone familiar with the term or know of any SR examples?

Ike



moderated Re: Peddler Cars

sgwarner88@...
 

From my knowledge of the use of the term since the 60's, Peddler, Way Freight, of Local all meant the same thing.  The train carried a LCL car (boxcar?) that they spotted at the depot or house track and waited for someone to unload or load it.  I have seen Peddler used, but in the same context.

moderated Re: Southern Railway Presidents' File Finding Aid

D. Scott Chatfield
 

Wish I could join y'all this weekend but we have a bunch of friends coming from out of town for an operations weekend.  I get play asshole dispatcher (I know, redundant...)


Scott Chatfield

moderated Southern Railway Presidents' File Finding Aid

George Eichelberger
 

All: My apologies! Please disregard the first posting on this..... The attachment included a reference to an organization I never want to see or hear about again. Here is a "clean" version.

To get ready to move the SRHA archives Presidents' files onto the shelves this weekend, and to familiarize people with the kinds of material
they contain, here is one part of 1967-1969 finding aid from Graham Claytor's administation, some of the topics may be familiar.

Without the finding aids, the files would be simply a huge pile of paper. Assembling cleaning them up and getting everything into file folders and archives boxes was the work of "our" archivist Salley Loy. Her work, partially funded by a grant from Norfolk Southern, is one of the most significant collections in the SRHA archives. As soon as resources permit, the Presidents' files and Ben Robert photo prints finding aids will be put on the SRHA web site.

The file count in the attached example is up to 11,579 with more Claytor and Harold Hall indexes not shown. If we have enough help tomorrow and Saturday, all will be out of packing boxes and accessible for the first time in several years.

Ike
_._,_._,_

moderated Re: Southern Railway Presidents' File Finding Aid

Jim Thurston
 

Ike:

Both Claytor files are corrupted for me (crazy bad formatting)

Jim T


From: "Ike Eichelberger" <geichelberger@...>
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io
Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2018 3:15:35 PM
Subject: [SouthernRailway] Southern Railway Presidents' File Finding Aid

All: My apologies! Please disregard the first posting on this..... The attachment included a reference to an organization I never want to see or hear about again. Here is a "clean" version.

To get ready to move the SRHA archives Presidents' files onto the shelves this weekend, and to familiarize people with the kinds of material
they contain, here is one part of 1967-1969 finding aid from Graham Claytor's administation, some of the topics may be familiar.

Without the finding aids, the files would be simply a huge pile of paper. Assembling cleaning them up and getting everything into file folders and archives boxes was the work of "our" archivist Salley Loy. Her work, partially funded by a grant from Norfolk Southern, is one of the most significant collections in the SRHA archives. As soon as resources permit, the Presidents' files and Ben Robert photo prints finding aids will be put on the SRHA web site.

The file count in the attached example is up to 11,579 with more Claytor and Harold Hall indexes not shown. If we have enough help tomorrow and Saturday, all will be out of packing boxes and accessible for the first time in several years.

Ike