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locked 1948 tt ... some answers, more questions
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Jim King
Thanks to Mike Roderick, I have a 1948 and 1964 t/t to go with my 1970 and more recent copies. I’m a little fuzzy on the code letters for each town’s name. Can’t find a key to them anywhere in the 16 pages. From memory, I know that W=water, Y=wye, C=coal and X=agent/operator. There are also P, D and N. What do these mean? I’ve attached pages 8 and 9. The “N” is next to Asheville and does not appear on the branch. The “P” is at Murphy Jct only. “D” appears in many towns.
For years, I’ve suspected that coal was available in Bryson because the distance between Nantahala and Balsam was too great and there was too much activity. That’s what started this thread yesterday. The tt seems to confirm my suspicion (“C” is to the right of the Bryson name) and that a turn was based out of Bryson (trains 66/67). This turn was shortened to Sylva-Addie in the 60s until cancelled around 1972. A Steve Patterson shot on RailPictures.net shows a 1966-ish Geep-powered local between Addie and Sylva with a long train of mostly boxcars. There was a LOT of industry in that stretch in post-War years, primarily Mead Paper, furniture and lumber-related. There was no water available between Bryson and Addie. Question now is where was coal loaded in Bryson? Did the coal trestle, thought to be “only” for the retail dealer, serve double duty? It’s close to the track and parallel but it seems too low for shoveling. It was also close to water, likely supplied by the town.
Canton’s coal supply was for the yard engine only, usually 599. There was a small bin or shed next to the “sand house” and water standpipe located on the bank across from the station and below the bridge, according to the engineer I rode with. The sand house was still there when I started visiting in 1977 and the floor was covered in sand, likely from spillage over the years. There was no coal available for mainline trains, only water, located across the river (most tank footers still remain).
In addition to the Goose (trains 68/69), there was a turn that ran from Asheville to Balsam (tr 70/71, 6 days a week). Nothing went “over the mountain” except the Goose because it needed 2 engines to get up the mountain. I suspect the Bryson-Addie turn was a single 2-8-0 and based in Bryson where water, coal and wye were available. This was the only activity on the line on Sunday, from what I can deduce. Was the Balsam turn also a single 2-8-0 (underpowered to go to Addie and return with whatever the Bryson turn has set off for it)? If so, did the Goose (tr 69) bring 71’s cars down the mountain to Addie and back up the mountain from Addie as Tr 68? Forwarding cars to Balsam and leaving them makes no sense unless the thru train was forwarding them. It’s also possible Tr 71 ran to Balsam to service the coaling ramp and turn on the wye since there was nowhere to turn around once it passed Canton. There was no customer base between Hazelwood and Balsam.
I’m also “assuming” this tt was issued in July because the Murphy Branch passenger train had just been cancelled (only freights are listed on pages 8 and 9).
As usual, closely reading the tt “seems” to answer a few questions while generating even more. Such is the process called “research”.
Jim King www.smokymountainmodelworks.com
-- Jim King www.smokymountainmodelworks.com
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David Payne
N - Continuous train order office
D - Day (time) train order office
P - I'd have to look ... maybe Southern's "code" for "Part-time" ... i.e. two shifts, but not 24 hours
DPayne
There are also P, D and N. What do these mean? I’ve attached pages 8 and 9. The “N” is next to Asheville and does not appear on the branch. The “P” is at Murphy Jct only. “D” appears in many towns.
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Robert Hanson
P = Passing track
D = Daytime train order office
N = Day and Night time train order office.
These are near-universal abbreviations.
Bob Hanson
Loganville, GA
-----Original Message-----
From: Jim King <jimking3@...> To: main <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io> Sent: Mon, Jun 10, 2019 2:46 pm Subject: [SouthernRailway] 1948 tt ... some answers, more questions Thanks to Mike Roderick, I have a 1948 and 1964 t/t to go with my 1970 and more recent copies. I’m a little fuzzy on the code letters for each town’s name. Can’t find a key to them anywhere in the 16 pages. From memory, I know that W=water, Y=wye, C=coal and X=agent/operator. There are also P, D and N. What do these mean? I’ve attached pages 8 and 9. The “N” is next to Asheville and does not appear on the branch. The “P” is at Murphy Jct only. “D” appears in many towns.
For years, I’ve suspected that coal was available in Bryson because the distance between Nantahala and Balsam was too great and there was too much activity. That’s what started this thread yesterday. The tt seems to confirm my suspicion (“C” is to the right of the Bryson name) and that a turn was based out of Bryson (trains 66/67). This turn was shortened to Sylva-Addie in the 60s until cancelled around 1972. A Steve Patterson shot on RailPictures.net shows a 1966-ish Geep-powered local between Addie and Sylva with a long train of mostly boxcars. There was a LOT of industry in that stretch in post-War years, primarily Mead Paper, furniture and lumber-related. There was no water available between Bryson and Addie. Question now is where was coal loaded in Bryson? Did the coal trestle, thought to be “only” for the retail dealer, serve double duty? It’s close to the track and parallel but it seems too low for shoveling. It was also close to water, likely supplied by the town.
Canton’s coal supply was for the yard engine only, usually 599. There was a small bin or shed next to the “sand house” and water standpipe located on the bank across from the station and below the bridge, according to the engineer I rode with. The sand house was still there when I started visiting in 1977 and the floor was covered in sand, likely from spillage over the years. There was no coal available for mainline trains, only water, located across the river (most tank footers still remain).
In addition to the Goose (trains 68/69), there was a turn that ran from Asheville to Balsam (tr 70/71, 6 days a week). Nothing went “over the mountain” except the Goose because it needed 2 engines to get up the mountain. I suspect the Bryson-Addie turn was a single 2-8-0 and based in Bryson where water, coal and wye were available. This was the only activity on the line on Sunday, from what I can deduce. Was the Balsam turn also a single 2-8-0 (underpowered to go to Addie and return with whatever the Bryson turn has set off for it)? If so, did the Goose (tr 69) bring 71’s cars down the mountain to Addie and back up the mountain from Addie as Tr 68? Forwarding cars to Balsam and leaving them makes no sense unless the thru train was forwarding them. It’s also possible Tr 71 ran to Balsam to service the coaling ramp and turn on the wye since there was nowhere to turn around once it passed Canton. There was no customer base between Hazelwood and Balsam.
I’m also “assuming” this tt was issued in July because the Murphy Branch passenger train had just been cancelled (only freights are listed on pages 8 and 9).
As usual, closely reading the tt “seems” to answer a few questions while generating even more. Such is the process called “research”.
Jim King
-- Jim King www.smokymountainmodelworks.com
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Ron Stafford
P was the designation used for Telephone on the roads that I'm familiar with. Ron Stafford On 6/10/2019 3:05 PM, Robert Hanson via
Groups.Io wrote:
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Carl Ardrey
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Jim King
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Robert Hanson
This question got my curiosity aroused.
On the ACL, SCL, A&WP/WofA/GaRR, and P&N, "P" stood for Passing track. On the FEC, it stood for "Water" (Freudian connection, there?), but then, the FEC was double tracked from end to end when the rule book I checked was published, and therefore had no passing tracks. L&N and CofG made no mention of the abbreviation "P" in their rulebooks.
Apparently the abbreviation was not as universal as I thought.
Oh, well. We live and learn.
Bob Hanson
Loganville, GA
-----Original Message-----
From: Ron Stafford via Groups.Io <wag2200@...> To: main <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io> Sent: Mon, Jun 10, 2019 3:57 pm Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] 1948 tt ... some answers, more questions P was the designation used for Telephone on the
roads that I'm familiar with.
Ron Stafford
On 6/10/2019 3:05 PM, Robert Hanson via
Groups.Io wrote:
P = Passing track
D = Daytime train order office
N = Day and Night time train order office.
These are near-universal abbreviations.
Bob Hanson
Loganville, GA
-----Original
Message-----
From: Jim King <jimking3@...> To: main <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io> Sent: Mon, Jun 10, 2019 2:46 pm Subject: [SouthernRailway] 1948 tt ... some answers, more questions Thanks to Mike
Roderick, I have a 1948 and 1964 t/t to go with my
1970 and more recent copies. ??I???m a little fuzzy on
the code letters for each town???s name.?? Can???t find a
key to them anywhere in the 16 pages.?? From memory,
I know that W=water, Y=wye, C=coal and
X=agent/operator.?? There are also P, D and N.?? What
do these mean??? I???ve attached pages 8 and 9.?? The
???N??? is next to Asheville and does not appear on the
branch.?? The ???P??? is at Murphy Jct only.?? ???D??? appears
in many towns.
??
For years, I???ve
suspected that coal was available in Bryson because
the distance between Nantahala and Balsam was too
great and there was too much activity.?? That???s what
started this thread yesterday.?? The tt seems to
confirm my suspicion (???C??? is to the right of the
Bryson name) and that a turn was based out of Bryson
(trains 66/67).?? This turn was shortened to
Sylva-Addie in the 60s until cancelled around 1972.??
A Steve Patterson shot on RailPictures.net shows a
1966-ish Geep-powered local between Addie and Sylva
with a long train of mostly boxcars.?? There was a
LOT of industry in that stretch in post-War years,
primarily Mead Paper, furniture and lumber-related.??
There was no water available between Bryson and
Addie.?? Question now is where was coal loaded in
Bryson??? Did the coal trestle, thought to be ???only???
for the retail dealer, serve double duty??? It???s
close to the track and parallel but it seems too low
for shoveling.?? It was also close to water, likely
supplied by the town.
??
Canton???s coal
supply was for the yard engine only, usually 599.??
There was a small bin or shed next to the ???sand
house??? and water standpipe located on the bank
across from the station and below the bridge,
according to the engineer I rode with.?? The sand
house was still there when I started visiting in
1977 and the floor was covered in sand, likely from
spillage over the years.?? There was no coal
available for mainline trains, only water, located
across the river (most tank footers still remain).
??
In addition to the
Goose (trains 68/69), there was a turn that ran from
Asheville to Balsam (tr 70/71, 6 days a week).??
Nothing went ???over the mountain??? except the Goose
because it needed 2 engines to get up the mountain.??
I suspect the Bryson-Addie turn was a single 2-8-0
and based in Bryson where water, coal and wye were
available.?? This was the only activity on the line
on Sunday, from what I can deduce.?? Was the Balsam
turn also a single 2-8-0 (underpowered to go to
Addie and return with whatever the Bryson turn has
set off for it)??? If so, did the Goose (tr 69) bring
71???s cars down the mountain to Addie and back up the
mountain from Addie as Tr 68??? Forwarding cars to
Balsam and leaving them makes no sense unless the
thru train was forwarding them.?? It???s also possible
Tr 71 ran to Balsam to service the coaling ramp and
turn on the wye since there was nowhere to turn
around once it passed Canton.?? There was no customer
base between Hazelwood and Balsam.
??
I???m also
???assuming??? this tt was issued in July because the
Murphy Branch passenger train had just been
cancelled (only freights are listed on pages 8 and
9).
??
As usual, closely
reading the tt ???seems??? to answer a few questions
while generating even more.?? Such is the process
called ???research???.
??
Jim King
??
-- Jim King www.smokymountainmodelworks.com
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Ron Stafford
Add the SAL to the list of roads which also used 'P' for Telephone. Ron On 6/10/2019 4:45 PM, Robert Hanson via
Groups.Io wrote:
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