Topics

moderated Jim Crow Coaches & 1401

Cohen Bob
 

On both of these topics:

On the coaches, I was told that the segregated section was "elastic" as the passenger loads varied. This I refer to from those coaches which did NOT have a hard barrier at the end of the Jim Crow portion. I don't know that SR had those or the ones with a curtain, but have been told they existed in the south.

Bill, Ike, care to comment and amplify?

Regarding 1401 being shopped in Alexandria: I was told by one of the metal workers/painters some 25+ years after the fact that it was restored cosmetically only, no boiler work, etc. These same men worked out at the National Capital Trolley Museum on one of their cars after an accident in 1987. Maybe the tender was fixed up as that would have relatively easy, but other than that, the cab, boiler jacket, etc. was made to look nice and pretty, and little else ................ or so I have been told. Remember that it came up dead-in-train, rods down and then sat out of doors from 1953 until it went to the Smithsonian in 1961 in its epic mile and a half 33 hour journey.

Thoughts, comments.

Bob Cohen

Bill Schafer
 

Re: flexible segregated sections: I hadn't heard that SOU utilized the moveable-curtain solution, but it makes sense. It’s believable.

Re: 1401: The late Bernie Gallagher knew exactly what was wrong with 1401’s paint job, but when corrections were offered to the Transportation Curator of the Smithsonian, the reply was: “That’s the way the Southern painted it, and that’s the way it’s going to stay.”

What does the Oracle say about these issues?

—Bill

On Apr 8, 2019, at 7:08 AM, Cohen Bob via Groups.Io <orl96782@...> wrote:

On both of these topics:

On the coaches, I was told that the segregated section was "elastic" as the passenger loads varied. This I refer to from those coaches which did NOT have a hard barrier at the end of the Jim Crow portion. I don't know that SR had those or the ones with a curtain, but have been told they existed in the south.

Bill, Ike, care to comment and amplify?

Regarding 1401 being shopped in Alexandria: I was told by one of the metal workers/painters some 25+ years after the fact that it was restored cosmetically only, no boiler work, etc. These same men worked out at the National Capital Trolley Museum on one of their cars after an accident in 1987. Maybe the tender was fixed up as that would have relatively easy, but other than that, the cab, boiler jacket, etc. was made to look nice and pretty, and little else ................ or so I have been told. Remember that it came up dead-in-train, rods down and then sat out of doors from 1953 until it went to the Smithsonian in 1961 in its epic mile and a half 33 hour journey.

Thoughts, comments.

Bob Cohen

C J Wyatt
 

<<

On Monday, April 8, 2019, 08:15:22 AM EDT, Bill Schafer <bill4501@...> wrote:


Re: flexible segregated sections: I hadn't heard that SOU utilized the moveable-curtain solution, but it makes sense. It’s believable.

>>

The Georgia Railroad had some coaches with multiple partitions. I seem to remember ones with as many as three partitions, but I cannot find any diagrams. I assume that it was for adjusting the space, but it may have been for smoking and non-smoking for both "colored and white".

Jack Wyatt




Cohen Bob
 

Bill:

Based upon everything I have read and learned here, the painting not being quite right (or maybe even right at all?), is sure believable. That said, what about the "shopping" referred to earlier in this thread? As I said, it reportedly was NOT shopped, but cosmetically restored to sit fat and pretty, stuffed and mounted in the Smithsonian.

As for the Oracle ...... he was 12 at the time of the 1401 move, and, of course, getting heavily interested in everything SR. An aunt or cousin who he stayed with often had their home just a few blocks from the station and he spent a lot of his non-school, waking hours there, watching, learning, etc., for the lifelong memories. I am planning on attending a SR/NS employee/former employee get-together in Lynchburg in 4 weeks and that might be a question for those gathered there. Next time I see the Oracle, I'll try to remember to ask him. Maybe we'll get lucky and he will know for sure as he met, talked with and interviewed and socialized with many employees and made friends with them.

The movable curtain may have been a B&O thing when in WV and VA and that may be where I heard it in reference. Then again, it might have been from G. Lawson Clark (remember him), who, when prodded would relate lots of little this's and that's about segregation and sectional seating. Lawson has been gone now for 23 years by the way.

Bob Cohen

Bob P.
 

Just want to say, I'm learning a lot from these threads. Out of curiosity, I know a few other museums, like NCTM, have Southern Jim Crow cars in their collection; has anyone else restored one and opened it to visitors? Seems like it would be a good way to dispel some of the misconceptions we've discussed here.

Bill Schafer
 

TVRM operates two ex-Central of Georgia Jim Crow coaches in regular service. TVRM 906 is a modernized heavyweight, and the partition is still intact (but the “white” and “colored” designations have been done away with). TVRM 907 is a lightweight Jim Crow coach, and the partition has been removed (but you can tell where it was if you look for it). Each car still has four bathrooms and each has a small plaque explaining what a “Jim Crow” coach is/was.

—Bill

Interior of TVRM 906


Plaque in TVRM 907

On Apr 8, 2019, at 2:19 PM, Bob P. <tomcatter.bob@...> wrote:

Just want to say, I'm learning a lot from these threads. Out of curiosity, I know a few other museums, like NCTM, have Southern Jim Crow cars in their collection; has anyone else restored one and opened it to visitors? Seems like it would be a good way to dispel some of the misconceptions we've discussed here.

Ed Mims
 

The Central of Georgia had two number series of coaches. The 500-series were referred to as partitioned coaches because they had a partition near the center in order to comply with the Jim Crow laws. Rest rooms of near equal size and with the same appointments were located in the four corners of the car (there might have been some slight variations car to car). To my knowledge there were never signs posted in these cars to designate “white” or “colored” ends. In addition, these cars were often used in regular service for white only and/or colored only depending upon the need. My guess is the conductor could decide which end for each race depending on the placement of the car in the train. Colored patrons were usually seated at the forward end of the train and a partitioned coach was used to separate the train by race. The 600-series cars were designated as “full coach” and in later years when modernized had large restrooms, women on one end and men on the opposite end. These cars, like the 500-series never had signs for racial designations.

 

In my memory the only passenger equipment referred to as a “Jim Crow“ car was the car with a center baggage compartment and a passenger section on each end to be used on local trains which carried freight and passengers. I don’t think either end was designated as “white” or “colored” as the car generally would not be turned at the ends of the run. The “colored” passengers would occupy the leading end on the car. The use of the name “Jim Crow” when referring to partitioned coaches is  relatively new.  

 

Ed Mims

 

From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io [mailto:main@SouthernRailway.groups.io] On Behalf Of Bill Schafer
Sent: Monday, April 08, 2019 10:49 PM
To: main@southernrailway.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Jim Crow Coaches & 1401

 

TVRM operates two ex-Central of Georgia Jim Crow coaches in regular service. TVRM 906 is a modernized heavyweight, and the partition is still intact (but the “white” and “colored” designations have been done away with). TVRM 907 is a lightweight Jim Crow coach, and the partition has been removed (but you can tell where it was if you look for it). Each car still has four bathrooms and each has a small plaque explaining what a “Jim Crow” coach is/was.

 

—Bill

 

Interior of TVRM 906

 

Plaque in TVRM 907



On Apr 8, 2019, at 2:19 PM, Bob P. <tomcatter.bob@...> wrote:

 

Just want to say, I'm learning a lot from these threads. Out of curiosity, I know a few other museums, like NCTM, have Southern Jim Crow cars in their collection; has anyone else restored one and opened it to visitors? Seems like it would be a good way to dispel some of the misconceptions we've discussed here.