locked ICC record interpretation help


A&Y Dave in MD
 

A&Y, Southern, and ICC Valuation Fans,

Can someone familiar with the ICC valuation records help me interpret the attached pages from an engineers' notebook?

These images are of pages from the engineers' notebook describing and valuing bridges and trestles. It came from Box 3386 in the ICC Valuation Records at the National Archives in College Park.  This portion refers to the CF line in Greensboro around mileposts 67-68.  I have the entire set of pages for Valuations Sections 27 (CF line Mt.Airy to Sanford), 27a (SM line Stokesdale to Madison branch) and 27b (CR line Climax to Ramseur Branch) for bridges, for buildings, and for land/right of way.  I'm trying to convert the bridges/trestles pages into a database in Excel to enhance the information I have from the 1912 track chart for the A&Y.  I want each row of the database to describe a single bridge or trestle.  I need help understanding the way the engineer laid out his notes.

  I think the original  "form 519" printed on the page of the notebook was designed to cover one bridge or trestle per page.  But it looks like the blue pencil lines indicate where the engineer added a new entries so that he could use up the whole page.  Only the info in the printed form below the owner info (i.e., kind of structure, name, location) was not repeated for each entry.  So, I'm not sure how many trestles are represented.  It looks like six different ones on two pages, but the maps I have don't show nearly that many (or I'm just not looking far enough because I'm misreading the scale of the Sanborn map).  Any help interpreting the Valuation trestle notes would be appreciated:

On the first page of the "Example-Pages-from-NARA..." file, you see the form itself refers to
Kind of Structure:  Frame Trestle
Name: W.A. Watson Roller Mills
Location: M.P. 68.4                        Length: 18'-04"

and then there is no header for the details (beginning with "Footplank...Metal")

Then there appears to be a header on top of the first blue line:
"Frame Trestle M.P. 68.4.   1 span 12' long"
and then details (e.g., caps, posts, sills...Metal) below the blue line.

Then there appears to be a new header again on a blue line:
"Frame Trestle   M.P. 68.1.   1 span 11'-04" long"
and then details (e.g., caps, posts, sills...GUARDS in blue) below the blue line

Is that THREE trestles (MP 68.4 on the CF line at Watson Roller Mills, MP 68.4,  and MP 68.1)?


On the second page, you see the form itself refers to
Kind of Structure:  Frame Trestles
Name: ____________
Location: M 68.0                        Length: 22'-00"

and then there is no header for the details (beginning with "Guard...")

Then there appears to be a header on top of the first blue line:
"Frame Trestle M.P. 68.0.  Spur left to Industry   1 span 10' long"
and then details (e.g., stringers, caps, sills, etc.) below the blue line.

Then there appears to be a new header again on a blue line:
"Frame Trestle Spur left to Industry  M.P. 67.8.   4 spans 46'-06" long"
and then details (e.g., guard, stringers, caps, etc.) below the blue line


Is that THREE trestles (MP 68.0 on the CF line, MP 68.0 on spur left to industry, and MP 67.8 on a different spur left to an industry)?


Is there anyone on this list with engineering or valuation experience who can help me figure out if I'm interpreting this right?  The mileposts should be located in Greensboro, somewhere south of the Furnace Branch junction and north of West Market Street Crossing, if that helps those of you who know Greensboro.  I've  attached an image from a 1943 detailed map of Greensboro in the vicinity that Marvin Black let me photograph.  I think that unnamed spur might be the "spur to the left" referred to in the notes.  A 1925 Sanborn map of Greensboro contains Prescott street, and I believe  the "trestles" referred to in the engineering record include the one over the "Brook" (which becomes North Buffalo Creek)  between AK Moore and Greensboro Building Supplies spurs, and then one more up above on the spur up to Lassiter Construction.  But that's only TWO, not SIX.  And I cannot find a "Watson Roller Mills" on the Sanborn map (either this 1925 or even on an earlier 1919 version).

So what am I missing?

Dave

--

Sent from David Bott's desktop pc


George Eichelberger
 

There appear to be three bridges described in your example. The examples you posted look like they are from field notes. The quality and format of the notes depended on the two or three people in the group that did the field work for particular ICC accounts within each Val section. Different accounts, 16 for depots for example, had an architect and an "ICC man" go to each location, usually in milepost series within a Val section. While the field notes are good to have, the inventory submitted in 1927, or the Val section summaries would be the most accurate and complete.

SRHA archive volunteers are cleaning up the Val section summaries now. They will be available to anyone that goes to the archives for research but we have not decided to simply put all 2,200 summary scans on line. The detail pages are in the thousands, not all have been scanned. I've attached an example of one of the summary pages. (I note that NC Val Section 27 is NOT in the SRHA (i.e. Southern) file. It jumps from section 26 to 28 as the A&Y was responsible for the valuation of its railroad. The originals of everything should be at College Park, what SRHA has are the carbon copies of the 1916-27 study and the 6-31 and 12-31 changes sent to the ICC on paper every year until about 1965. The bi-annual reports are excellent to show "As and Bs" (Additions and Betterments) and when an item was removed from the accounts. Both the Southern and CofG summary reports have many hand written entries showing when a depot, water tower, etc was demolished, destroyed by fire, etc.

I think I posted the following some time in the past but here is a Google Drive link to the 20 or so page ICC instructions:
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1vwp_eG1F2Kh9z1fcYy_gEfjlh8O6_y-m?usp=sharing

Note that the SRHA archives are the work of volunteers and people that donated cash to purchase private collections. We would appreciate hearing comments and suggests about HOW we should make copies or scans available. Should we establish some form of "subscription" that allows people to access and download scanned items, allow access only at the archives? Short of receiving a large grant to make everything freely available, some form of revenue needs to be established to help pay for the building, the electric bill, insurance, etc. Your comments please!

Ike


George Eichelberger
 

On second thought….

The A&Y Valuation data may (!) be in the Southern “short line” or “subsidiary” ledgers. They contain many union station and subsidiary files. None have been reviewed or scanned in detail..

Ike


A&Y Dave in MD
 

Thanks Ike. The A&Y is listed and liked under the Southern at NARA. The boxes i pulled often had notebooks for other Southern lines, main company, subsidiaries and wholly owned short lines.  I’m glad the A&Y was distinct at that time, or its records would only be in aggregate. The separate A&Y annual reports are gold for me!

I got field notes, value estimates, engineering notes for bridges and structures, and supplementals, but i could not find/get everything. After two days’ hunting they let me ‘behind the counter’ into the compact shelving rooms to go through the boxes (reminded me of end scene from Indiana Jones only all white, high tech version) because it was all mixed up (SRHA is not the only archive needing sorting and labeling—even the big guys have that problem!). I hope to get back, as it is only 45 min drive to NARA 2. They just aren’t open on weekends or holidays ☹️.

Dave



Sent from Dave Bott' iPhone

On Aug 19, 2019, at 9:44 AM, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:

There appear to be three bridges described in your example. The examples you posted look like they are from field notes. The quality and format of the notes depended on the two or three people in the group that did the field work for particular ICC accounts within each Val section. Different accounts, 16 for depots for example, had an architect and an "ICC man" go to each location, usually in milepost series within a Val section. While the field notes are good to have, the inventory submitted in 1927, or the Val section summaries would be the most accurate and complete.

SRHA archive volunteers are cleaning up the Val section summaries now. They will be available to anyone that goes to the archives for research but we have not decided to simply put all 2,200 summary scans on line. The detail pages are in the thousands, not all have been scanned. I've attached an example of one of the summary pages. (I note that NC Val Section 27 is NOT in the SRHA (i.e. Southern) file. It jumps from section 26 to 28 as the A&Y was responsible for the valuation of its railroad. The originals of everything should be at College Park, what SRHA has are the carbon copies of the 1916-27 study and the 6-31 and 12-31 changes sent to the ICC on paper every year until about 1965. The bi-annual reports are excellent to show "As and Bs" (Additions and Betterments) and when an item was removed from the accounts. Both the Southern and CofG summary reports have many hand written entries showing when a depot, water tower, etc was demolished, destroyed by fire, etc.

I think I posted the following some time in the past but here is a Google Drive link to the 20 or so page ICC instructions:
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1vwp_eG1F2Kh9z1fcYy_gEfjlh8O6_y-m?usp=sharing

Note that the SRHA archives are the work of volunteers and people that donated cash to purchase private collections. We would appreciate hearing comments and suggests about HOW we should make copies or scans available. Should we establish some form of "subscription" that allows people to access and download scanned items, allow access only at the archives? Short of receiving a large grant to make everything freely available, some form of revenue needs to be established to help pay for the building, the electric bill, insurance, etc. Your comments please!

Ike
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