locked Southern Railway Aggregate Hoppers


Bill Schafer
 

All:

For an article in an upcoming TIES, I’d like to find some publishable images of Southern’s aggregate hoppers (pre-NS merger), most of which were built by Greenville Steel Car Co. in the early-1970s. I have immediate need of builders photos and photos of these cars being loaded/unloaded on customers’ tracks. Also, I’d like a small selection of a string of these cars in a train. There were 2500 of these cars in the 101300-103999 series. 

Also, I’d greatly appreciate one or two good images of the Ortner-built aggregate cars (105000-105249) built in the late-1970s. I don’t recall ever seeing one of these cars, either in person or in a photo.

Deadline is approaching, so thanks in advance for a quick response. Please contact me off-list - editor@....

Thanks.

—Bill


Warren Calloway
 



On Oct 15, 2019, at 1:00 PM, Bill Schafer <bill4501@...> wrote:

All:

For an article in an upcoming TIES, I’d like to find some publishable images of Southern’s aggregate hoppers (pre-NS merger), most of which were built by Greenville Steel Car Co. in the early-1970s. I have immediate need of builders photos and photos of these cars being loaded/unloaded on customers’ tracks. Also, I’d like a small selection of a string of these cars in a train. There were 2500 of these cars in the 101300-103999 series. 

Also, I’d greatly appreciate one or two good images of the Ortner-built aggregate cars (105000-105249) built in the late-1970s. I don’t recall ever seeing one of these cars, either in person or in a photo.

Deadline is approaching, so thanks in advance for a quick response. Please contact me off-list - editor@....

Thanks.

—Bill


Bill Schafer
 

Thanks a lot, Warren

On Oct 15, 2019, at 4:34 PM, Warren Calloway <wcalloway@...> wrote:

<SOU105118-IMG_0557.JPG><SOU105149-IMG_0556.JPG>

On Oct 15, 2019, at 1:00 PM, Bill Schafer <bill4501@...> wrote:

All:

For an article in an upcoming TIES, I’d like to find some publishable images of Southern’s aggregate hoppers (pre-NS merger), most of which were built by Greenville Steel Car Co. in the early-1970s. I have immediate need of builders photos and photos of these cars being loaded/unloaded on customers’ tracks. Also, I’d like a small selection of a string of these cars in a train. There were 2500 of these cars in the 101300-103999 series. 

Also, I’d greatly appreciate one or two good images of the Ortner-built aggregate cars (105000-105249) built in the late-1970s. I don’t recall ever seeing one of these cars, either in person or in a photo.

Deadline is approaching, so thanks in advance for a quick response. Please contact me off-list - editor@....

Thanks.

—Bill



Ryan Harris
 

These cars have the thin large "SOUTHERN" and numerals on the sides of the car similar to the three bay hoppers in the 360xxx series. This thin style of letters and numbers is difficult to pin down.

Did Southern keep stenciling diagrams of the various freight car classes, such as this one from the NWHS archives?

https://www.nwhs.org/archivesdb/detail.php?ID=93862

If lettering guides per class were not kept, was a standard diagram of alphabet and numerals used by Southern published for car builders to use?

Ryan Harris
Fort Worth, TX


George Eichelberger
 

Ryan:

The Southern was rather particular about how its rolling stock was painted and lettered. It produced stencil drawings for different car types and updated drawings as lettering standards changed. It’s important to understand that “stencil” drawings were only intended to show where individual stencils were to be placed on the equipment, each and every stencil; monogram, dim data, road names and numbers, etc. had their own drawing to be used to cut the stencils.

Although the different sizes of the post 1960 “block” lettering were proportionally different (i.e. same design, just different sizes) the earlier “Roman” style letters had individual drawings for different sizes. Things such as letter thickness, width, style of serifs and spacing could vary. Early (hand painted) passenger car lettering was quite ornate. Later “block” style passenger lettering, sometime called “streamlined” lettering was much simpler.

(I have mentioned before, the Southern did not have a lettering standard when the 1941 “Tennessean” and “Southerner” were being built at P-S. Southern simply used the same 7 inch lettering EMD had developed for the E-6s.)

Quite a few lettering drawings, the round monogram (never called a “logo”!) and placement drawings were published in the SRHA 40’ and 50’ (1938-1982) box car books. The 50’ book is still available from SRHA (maybe 12 left?) The 40’ book is long out of print but a new version that includes all of the various 40’ rebuilds is about 60% done. (When time permits, we will publish a list of all the drawings we have scanned. When we get the new networked drive set up, we will make digital versions available at nominal pricew.)

Ike

PS About the best Southern decals produced and sold today are from Hubert Mask at Mask Island. SRHA has provided Hubert with detailed drawings of many of his decal sets.


Jason Greene
 

The Southern did not have classes for the freight cars. 
The drawings are however for specific number series of cars. 

Jason Greene 

On Nov 22, 2019, at 4:37 PM, Ryan Harris <ryan.harris@...> wrote:



These cars have the thin large "SOUTHERN" and numerals on the sides of the car similar to the three bay hoppers in the 360xxx series. This thin style of letters and numbers is difficult to pin down.

Did Southern keep stenciling diagrams of the various freight car classes, such as this one from the NWHS archives?

https://www.nwhs.org/archivesdb/detail.php?ID=93862

If lettering guides per class were not kept, was a standard diagram of alphabet and numerals used by Southern published for car builders to use?

Ryan Harris
Fort Worth, TX


Ryan Harris
 

That's interesting, Jason. I'm certainly no expert on Southern railcars. I was using the terminology used in Andrew Dow's book, Norfolk and Western Coal Cars. In Appendix H there is a listing of "Coal Cars of the Southern Railway as may be found in service on Norfolk and Western coal routes." The Greenville cars I referred to in series 360000-360999 are listed as Southern class HS58 in this book.

I have some Southern equipment drawings of the Ortner quick dump hoppers (79425-79979, 79980 and 390000-390499). These are listed as Car Type K240 (K340 for the lone aluminum car) but no "class" is given on the diagram. In the Dow book the same Southern Ortner cars are listed as Southern classes HS24 through HS27 for the 79xxx cars and classes HS59 through HS61 for the 390xxx cars. I wonder if the concept of a Southern class of cars is a Norfolk Southern thing, since in the context of the book these cars are only considered as coal cars in the combined Norfolk Southern railroad.

--
Ryan Harris
Fort Worth, TX


Ryan Harris
 

I see what you mean about the term "stenciling" Ike. I have run across drawings that lay out where each individual stencil is to be applied, which I believe is what you're referring to. Those drawings actually do fit what I'm looking for. However, I was thinking of a drawing where the dimensions and shape of the individual characters are laid out so they can be reproduced accurately. I used the term stencil because that is the term I saw used on this Southern Railway diagram:

https://www.nwhs.org/archivesdb/detail.php?ID=188131

This is the only Southern Railway stencil drawing of this type I found on the Norfolk and Western Historical Society archives, but honestly I was glad to have found anything Southern related there. Since Southern had such a unique letter and numeral style, I have to imagine more drawings than this single stencil drawing I found existed at one time or another. To my point, the letters and numerals on the Ortner cars in Warren Calloway's photos above are very close if not an exact match to the lettering used on Greenville cars in series 351862-352661 and Pullman Standard cars in series 88000-88499. I have to imagine the different builders used a common Southern Railway standard drawing to create stencils in their own shops, or at the very least the Southern Railway standard letters and numerals were specified on the individual drawings supplied to each builder.

I am very familiar with Mask Island decals. They are excellent quality and tend to be true to the prototype lettering. I was very pleased to learn he made decals for the boxcars rebuilt as flatcars to carry highway trailers. I had built a couple models of those cars and was almost resigned to painting them for Norfolk Southern when I was alerted to the newly released set. I have also purchased other Southern decals from Mask Island in the hopes of finding something I can use for the 360000-360999 series I mentioned earlier in the thread, but so far nothing is a good fit. If the SRHA has any drawings that might help Mask Island to produce the lightweight or "thin" letters and numerals found on the Ortner and Greenville open hopper series I mentioned and Warren Calloway's photos above depict, I would very much appreciate any help Mr. Mask might be given by the SRHA to produce those decals. There are unpainted models out there just waiting for these decals!

--
Ryan Harris
Fort Worth, TX


George Eichelberger
 

Ryan:

Jason Greene is correct that Southern never had car classes. Any photo you see of a Southern freight car with a class designation was taken after the Sou/NS merger. At that time, the new NS Mechanical Dept (senior people were mostly ex N&W) simply expanded the N&W class system by adding an “S”. So BSnn indicates a Southern box car. N&W classes were not modified as a result of the merger. (I have never noticed if the same class number appeared on matching Bnn and BSnn cars. As the N&W built a very high proportion of its hopper cars and the Southern did not, I don’t expect there were many exact matches.)

Caution….many cars with complete Southern paint were given the new class stencils (I have been presented with photos as “proof” of Southern car classes. That may appear to have been from when the car was built but that is not correct.

Ike

PS After all of this…Southern DID have car classes for a very few years after the railroad was formed. There is an artifact of that on drawings into the 1900s. Usually in the upper right corner you will see a “Class” block. After classes were dropped, “Class” became something such as “box car”. (As they say..”never say never”.)


Ryan Harris
 

Thanks for confirming the information Jason provided, Ike. Looking back at the builder's photos of the Greenville 3600cf open hoppers in the 1984 Car & Locomotive Cyclopedia the class label "HS58" is absent from the carbody side. I learn something new every day!
--
Ryan Harris
Fort Worth, TX