locked Hazmat rules


Paul Schmidt
 

Anyone have access to a Southern Special System Instructions for the late 1970s (or equivalent document for the era) pertaining to the location of a hazmat car within a train? In particular, how many non-hazmat cars would be placed between a locomotive or cab and a covered hopper containing ammonium nitrate.

Thanks
--
Paul Schmidt
Sequim WA


Carl Ardrey
 

No restrictions for covered hoppers.  Placement restrictions for tank cars only.

CEA

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: pschmidt3013@...
Sent: Saturday, April 18, 2020 11:20 AM
To: main@southernrailway.groups.io
Subject: [SouthernRailway] Hazmat rules

 

Anyone have access to a Southern Special System Instructions for the late 1970s (or equivalent document for the era) pertaining to the location of a hazmat car within a train? In particular, how many non-hazmat cars would be placed between a locomotive or cab and a covered hopper containing ammonium nitrate.

Thanks
--
Paul Schmidt
Sequim WA

 


rwbrv4
 

Carl, what were those tank car placement orders?
Rick


-----Original Message-----
From: Carl Ardrey <carlardrey2005@...>
To: main@southernrailway.groups.io <main@southernrailway.groups.io>
Sent: Sat, Apr 18, 2020 8:10 pm
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Hazmat rules

No restrictions for covered hoppers.  Placement restrictions for tank cars only.
CEA
 
Sent from Mail for Windows 10
 
From: pschmidt3013@...
Sent: Saturday, April 18, 2020 11:20 AM
To: main@southernrailway.groups.io
Subject: [SouthernRailway] Hazmat rules
 
Anyone have access to a Southern Special System Instructions for the late 1970s (or equivalent document for the era) pertaining to the location of a hazmat car within a train? In particular, how many non-hazmat cars would be placed between a locomotive or cab and a covered hopper containing ammonium nitrate.

Thanks
--
Paul Schmidt
Sequim WA
 


Paul Schmidt
 

Thanks, Carl!
--
Paul Schmidt
Sequim WA


Carl Ardrey
 

Depended on commodity.  In general, no closer than 6th car from occupied engine or caboose "if train length permits".  SOU considered all locomotives occupied as does NS.  A tank car also can't be next to a shiftable load.  No restrictions in terms of engines/cabooses on diesel which is considered combustible, not dangerous.

On April 19, 2020 at 5:56 AM "rwbrv4 via groups.io" <dccinstallssales@...> wrote:

Carl, what were those tank car placement orders?
Rick


-----Original Message-----
From: Carl Ardrey <carlardrey2005@...>
To: main@southernrailway.groups.io <main@southernrailway.groups.io>
Sent: Sat, Apr 18, 2020 8:10 pm
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Hazmat rules

No restrictions for covered hoppers.  Placement restrictions for tank cars only.
CEA
 
Sent from Mail for Windows 10
 
From: pschmidt3013@...
Sent: Saturday, April 18, 2020 11:20 AM
To: main@southernrailway.groups.io
Subject: [SouthernRailway] Hazmat rules
 
Anyone have access to a Southern Special System Instructions for the late 1970s (or equivalent document for the era) pertaining to the location of a hazmat car within a train? In particular, how many non-hazmat cars would be placed between a locomotive or cab and a covered hopper containing ammonium nitrate.

Thanks
--
Paul Schmidt
Sequim WA
 
 


 


Carl Ardrey
 

Placement chart from 1979.


Jason Greene
 

So a train moving up a coal branch with a tank car of diesel fuel would have that tank 6 cars away from the caboose and last locomotive, and between two buffer cars separating the tank car from the coal hoppers. 

Would the same be true for an empty uncleaned tank car?

If the train were less than 13 cars would the tank be the middle car or would it be closer to the cab or locomotive?

Jason Greene 

On Apr 19, 2020, at 10:20 AM, Carl Ardrey <carlardrey2005@...> wrote:

Placement chart from 1979.
<Scan.jpg>


Carl Ardrey
 

Diesel fuel cars are considered combustible, not dangerous so no placement restrictions.  The fuel cars would have been used to supply fuel facilities at yards.  We had them at Norris Yd, Brosnan Yd, and Sheffield.  Wouldn’t have seen one on a branchline.  Empty DANG tank cars can’t be next to engine.

CEA

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Jason Greene
Sent: Sunday, April 19, 2020 10:14 AM
To: main@southernrailway.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Hazmat rules

 

So a train moving up a coal branch with a tank car of diesel fuel would have that tank 6 cars away from the caboose and last locomotive, and between two buffer cars separating the tank car from the coal hoppers. 

 

Would the same be true for an empty uncleaned tank car?

 

If the train were less than 13 cars would the tank be the middle car or would it be closer to the cab or locomotive?

Jason Greene 



On Apr 19, 2020, at 10:20 AM, Carl Ardrey <carlardrey2005@...> wrote:

Placement chart from 1979.

<Scan.jpg>

 


James
 

From my 20 years in the fire service, DOT did away with the combustible placard in the early 1990’s or so.  Combustible covered too many commodities and shippers were using it on everything they could to avoid restrictions.  Even though it may qualify as poisonous if they could ship as combustible they would.  Emergency response also could not identify the product easily, even some shipments were “use no water” but would not be marked as such with a combustible placard.

Most diesel fuel loads from then to now are labeled Flammable.  Diesel fuel would be UN1993 in the DOT HazMat guide book.

James Wall
Rural Hall, NC




Stuart Thayer
 

Jason,

All of the tank cars I saw in trains on the former L&N EK Subdivision during the SBD era had the tank cars at the rear of the train.  In fact, that was true of all non-coal freight cars.  This was especially true of cars that would be tacked on to the end of a unit coal train.  By doing this these cars could be easily removed from the rear of the train once it arrived at a coal marshalling yard such as Hazard thus not requiring a lot of additional working of the train by the yard crew.  The train would then become a mine run that would proceed on to the load out for loading.  The reverse was true as well so those non-coal freight cars could be quickly removed at a terminal such as Corbin.

Stuart Thayer

In a message dated 4/19/2020 11:14:44 AM Eastern Standard Time, jason.p.greene@... writes:

So a train moving up a coal branch with a tank car of diesel fuel would have that tank 6 cars away from the caboose and last locomotive, and between two buffer cars separating the tank car from the coal hoppers. 

Would the same be true for an empty uncleaned tank car?

If the train were less than 13 cars would the tank be the middle car or would it be closer to the cab or locomotive?

Jason Greene

On Apr 19, 2020, at 10:20 AM, Carl Ardrey <carlardrey2005@...> wrote:

Placement chart from 1979.
<Scan.jpg>


rwbrv4
 

Thanks Carl
Rick




On Sunday, April 19, 2020 Carl Ardrey <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io> wrote:

Depended on commodity.  In general, no closer than 6th car from occupied engine or caboose "if train length permits".  SOU considered all locomotives occupied as does NS.  A tank car also can't be next to a shiftable load.  No restrictions in terms of engines/cabooses on diesel which is considered combustible, not dangerous.
On April 19, 2020 at 5:56 AM "rwbrv4 via groups.io" <dccinstallssales@...> wrote:

Carl, what were those tank car placement orders?
Rick


-----Original Message-----
From: Carl Ardrey <carlardrey2005@...>
To: main@southernrailway.groups.io <main@southernrailway.groups.io>
Sent: Sat, Apr 18, 2020 8:10 pm
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Hazmat rules

No restrictions for covered hoppers.  Placement restrictions for tank cars only.
CEA
 
Sent from Mail for Windows 10
 
From: pschmidt3013@...
Sent: Saturday, April 18, 2020 11:20 AM
To: main@southernrailway.groups.io
Subject: [SouthernRailway] Hazmat rules
 
Anyone have access to a Southern Special System Instructions for the late 1970s (or equivalent document for the era) pertaining to the location of a hazmat car within a train? In particular, how many non-hazmat cars would be placed between a locomotive or cab and a covered hopper containing ammonium nitrate.

Thanks
--
Paul Schmidt
Sequim WA
 
 


 


Robert Richardson
 

Here is a make up of a local train from a conductors cars handled book on the Knoxville Division on a train between Knoxville and Bristol on 10/24/41.

 

 

Eng SR  600

SR         107720   H    Coal

CG         7812      B     Fertz.

ATSF    123535  “       “

CG        7067      “       “

CG        58493    “       “

SP         84208    “       Lbr

TCX      8569      T     Gas

ACL      92994    G      ??

PLE      83677    B      Mty

TNO      53757    “       Slag ??

CCCStL 57647    “         “

SR          149203  “       Cedar Logs

Cab SR   X2777      

 

Robert Richardson

Henderson, NC

MP S114.5

 

From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io> On Behalf Of Stuart Thayer via groups.io
Sent: Sunday, April 19, 2020 12:43 PM
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Hazmat rules

 

Jason,

 

All of the tank cars I saw in trains on the former L&N EK Subdivision during the SBD era had the tank cars at the rear of the train.  In fact, that was true of all non-coal freight cars.  This was especially true of cars that would be tacked on to the end of a unit coal train.  By doing this these cars could be easily removed from the rear of the train once it arrived at a coal marshalling yard such as Hazard thus not requiring a lot of additional working of the train by the yard crew.  The train would then become a mine run that would proceed on to the load out for loading.  The reverse was true as well so those non-coal freight cars could be quickly removed at a terminal such as Corbin.

 

Stuart Thayer

 

In a message dated 4/19/2020 11:14:44 AM Eastern Standard Time, jason.p.greene@... writes:

 

So a train moving up a coal branch with a tank car of diesel fuel would have that tank 6 cars away from the caboose and last locomotive, and between two buffer cars separating the tank car from the coal hoppers. 

 

Would the same be true for an empty uncleaned tank car?

 

If the train were less than 13 cars would the tank be the middle car or would it be closer to the cab or locomotive?

Jason Greene

 

On Apr 19, 2020, at 10:20 AM, Carl Ardrey <carlardrey2005@...> wrote:

Placement chart from 1979.

<Scan.jpg>


D. Scott Chatfield
 

Paul Schmidt asked:

Anyone have access to a Southern Special System Instructions for the late 1970s (or equivalent document for the era) pertaining to the location of a hazmat car within a train? In particular, how many non-hazmat cars would be placed between a locomotive or cab and a covered hopper containing ammonium nitrate. 


The chart was in every timetable by the late '70s.  To wit, from the Piedmont Division ETT June1978, the only restrictions on "loaded cars other than tank cars placcarded" was that they must not be next to cars placcarded Explosives A, Poison Gas, or Radioactive.  That's it.


Scott Chatfield


Paul Schmidt
 

Thanks to everyone for the timely and informative responses! 
--
Paul Schmidt
Sequim WA


D. Scott Chatfield
 

A 1977 ETT has a chart for the restrictions but no pictures of the placcards.  The 1978 version has pictures of the various diamond placcards with the words spelled out.  Both state they were no restrictions on cars placcarded "combustible".  

We started using numbered placcards in the summer of 1983 and the 1984 ETT's chart calls out "combustible" and "1993" placcards as having no restrictions.  "1993" is "combustible liquids, not otherwise specified", which includes diesel fuel.


Scott Chatfield