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locked Birmingham Terminal Station - how was it accessed by various railroads

C J Wyatt
 

I am curious how the through passenger train services accessed Birmingham Terminal Station. For instance, for the SLSF - Southern services, I would think that Frisco arrived and departed the north end and the connecting Southern trains used the south end, so those trains were essentially a through operation. What about Southern's own through trains such as The Southerner and the Pelican. Did they head-in/back-out or back-in/head-out of the south end, or did they use different lines on the way in than the way out so that those trains could operate through? What about the Illinois Central - Central of Georgia through trains?

I appreciate any help with this topic.

Jack Wyatt  
George Eichelberger
 

Jack:

There are quite a few contracts, and Presidents’ files on Birmingham Term  Sta. I cannot quote their contents but Contract No 632 (we have more than 1,100) may have what you are looking for?

Here’s the cover..

Ike


On Oct 8, 2021, at 8:32 PM, C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...> wrote:

I am curious how the through passenger train services accessed Birmingham Terminal Station. For instance, for the SLSF - Southern services, I would think that Frisco arrived and departed the north end and the connecting Southern trains used the south end, so those trains were essentially a through operation. What about Southern's own through trains such as The Southerner and the Pelican. Did they head-in/back-out or back-in/head-out of the south end, or did they use different lines on the way in than the way out so that those trains could operate through? What about the Illinois Central - Central of Georgia through trains?

I appreciate any help with this topic.

Jack Wyatt  

George Eichelberger
 

Jack:

Another possibility..

Contract 1123?

Places like Birmingham can create a lot of documentation because most contracts were bi-lateral even though multiple railroads were all in the same project.

Ike



On Oct 8, 2021, at 8:32 PM, C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...> wrote:

I am curious how the through passenger train services accessed Birmingham Terminal Station. For instance, for the SLSF - Southern services, I would think that Frisco arrived and departed the north end and the connecting Southern trains used the south end, so those trains were essentially a through operation. What about Southern's own through trains such as The Southerner and the Pelican. Did they head-in/back-out or back-in/head-out of the south end, or did they use different lines on the way in than the way out so that those trains could operate through? What about the Illinois Central - Central of Georgia through trains?

I appreciate any help with this topic.

Jack Wyatt  

C J Wyatt
 

Ike, I don't think that I need to look at the contracts. I just am hoping that  someone who spent time around there who can tell me how the trains got in and out.

Jack

On Friday, October 8, 2021, 08:43:13 PM EDT, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:


Jack:

There are quite a few contracts, and Presidents’ files on Birmingham Term  Sta. I cannot quote their contents but Contract No 632 (we have more than 1,100) may have what you are looking for?

Here’s the cover..

Ike


On Oct 8, 2021, at 8:32 PM, C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...> wrote:

I am curious how the through passenger train services accessed Birmingham Terminal Station. For instance, for the SLSF - Southern services, I would think that Frisco arrived and departed the north end and the connecting Southern trains used the south end, so those trains were essentially a through operation. What about Southern's own through trains such as The Southerner and the Pelican. Did they head-in/back-out or back-in/head-out of the south end, or did they use different lines on the way in than the way out so that those trains could operate through? What about the Illinois Central - Central of Georgia through trains?

I appreciate any help with this topic.

Jack Wyatt  

Carl Ardrey
 

AGS crews (south end) backed in and backed out at terminal station.   East End crews (and AGS North) headed in and headed out.
CEA

On 10/08/2021 7:47 PM C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...> wrote:
 
 
 
Ike, I don't think that I need to look at the contracts. I just am hoping that  someone who spent time around there who can tell me how the trains got in and out.
 
Jack
 
On Friday, October 8, 2021, 08:43:13 PM EDT, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:
 
 
Jack:
 
There are quite a few contracts, and Presidents’ files on Birmingham Term  Sta. I cannot quote their contents but Contract No 632 (we have more than 1,100) may have what you are looking for?
 
Here’s the cover..
 
Ike


On Oct 8, 2021, at 8:32 PM, C J Wyatt < cjwyatt@...> wrote:

I am curious how the through passenger train services accessed Birmingham Terminal Station. For instance, for the SLSF - Southern services, I would think that Frisco arrived and departed the north end and the connecting Southern trains used the south end, so those trains were essentially a through operation. What about Southern's own through trains such as The Southerner and the Pelican. Did they head-in/back-out or back-in/head-out of the south end, or did they use different lines on the way in than the way out so that those trains could operate through? What about the Illinois Central - Central of Georgia through trains?

I appreciate any help with this topic.

Jack Wyatt  
 

Jason Greene
 

Try this out. It’s a rough drawing I just drew up for you. 
Frisco to and from Memphis to the North. 
IC came in on trackage rights on Frisco. 
Southern to Columbus, MS (old Georgia Pacific) and Sheffield, AL (North Alabama line) to the North. 
AGS thru the wye to Meridian and Chattanooga. 
CG thru the wye to Birmingham. Crossing AGS. 
SAL to Atlanta thru the wye and crossing AGS. 
Southern from Atlanta used the AGS line from Irondale. 

L&N did not go to Terminal but crossed the wye. Sloss also crossed the wye and the AGS had a yard inside the wye to serve downtown industries like Sloss. 

IC, ABC, and SAL jointly owned the Birmingham Terminal which crossed under the AGS and L&N down near Union Station and 14th st to get to the SAL yard two blocks south of where the SAL crossed the AGS to access Terminal Station. 

The other industrial lines also had trackage in the area. Plus the street car system. Birmingham was a spaghetti bowl of rail at its height. 


Jason Greene 

On Oct 8, 2021, at 8:32 PM, C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...> wrote:

I am curious how the through passenger train services accessed Birmingham Terminal Station. For instance, for the SLSF - Southern services, I would think that Frisco arrived and departed the north end and the connecting Southern trains used the south end, so those trains were essentially a through operation. What about Southern's own through trains such as The Southerner and the Pelican. Did they head-in/back-out or back-in/head-out of the south end, or did they use different lines on the way in than the way out so that those trains could operate through? What about the Illinois Central - Central of Georgia through trains?

I appreciate any help with this topic.

Jack Wyatt  

C J Wyatt
 

Thanks Carl. Looks like the AGS crews (south end) got stuck with the extra move.

Jack

On Friday, October 8, 2021, 09:32:28 PM EDT, CARL ARDREY <carlardrey2005@...> wrote:


AGS crews (south end) backed in and backed out at terminal station.   East End crews (and AGS North) headed in and headed out.
CEA

C J Wyatt
 

Thanks Jason, that was pretty quick drawing.

On the 1935 map I could not tell that the Central of Georgia  had its own line along side the AGS past Woodlawn. Thus the IC - CofGa connecting trains had a through move sort of like the SLSF - Southern ones.

Appreciate it. Now Birmingham Terminal Station operations are a bit clearer to me.

Jack Wyatt

On Friday, October 8, 2021, 09:39:53 PM EDT, Jason Greene <jason.p.greene@...> wrote:


Try this out. It’s a rough drawing I just drew up for you. 
Frisco to and from Memphis to the North. 
IC came in on trackage rights on Frisco. 
Southern to Columbus, MS (old Georgia Pacific) and Sheffield, AL (North Alabama line) to the North. 
AGS thru the wye to Meridian and Chattanooga. 
CG thru the wye to Birmingham. Crossing AGS. 
SAL to Atlanta thru the wye and crossing AGS. 
Southern from Atlanta used the AGS line from Irondale. 

L&N did not go to Terminal but crossed the wye. Sloss also crossed the wye and the AGS had a yard inside the wye to serve downtown industries like Sloss. 

IC, ABC, and SAL jointly owned the Birmingham Terminal which crossed under the AGS and L&N down near Union Station and 14th st to get to the SAL yard two blocks south of where the SAL crossed the AGS to access Terminal Station. 

The other industrial lines also had trackage in the area. Plus the street car system. Birmingham was a spaghetti bowl of rail at its height. 


Jason Greene 

On Oct 8, 2021, at 8:32 PM, C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...> wrote:

I am curious how the through passenger train services accessed Birmingham Terminal Station. For instance, for the SLSF - Southern services, I would think that Frisco arrived and departed the north end and the connecting Southern trains used the south end, so those trains were essentially a through operation. What about Southern's own through trains such as The Southerner and the Pelican. Did they head-in/back-out or back-in/head-out of the south end, or did they use different lines on the way in than the way out so that those trains could operate through? What about the Illinois Central - Central of Georgia through trains?

I appreciate any help with this topic.

Jack Wyatt  

Carl Ardrey
 

CGA used Southern past Woodlawn Jct to get to BT.
CEA


On Oct 8, 2021, at 9:28 PM, C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...> wrote:


Thanks Jason, that was pretty quick drawing.

On the 1935 map I could not tell that the Central of Georgia  had its own line along side the AGS past Woodlawn. Thus the IC - CofGa connecting trains had a through move sort of like the SLSF - Southern ones.

Appreciate it. Now Birmingham Terminal Station operations are a bit clearer to me.

Jack Wyatt

On Friday, October 8, 2021, 09:39:53 PM EDT, Jason Greene <jason.p.greene@...> wrote:


Try this out. It’s a rough drawing I just drew up for you. 
Frisco to and from Memphis to the North. 
IC came in on trackage rights on Frisco. 
Southern to Columbus, MS (old Georgia Pacific) and Sheffield, AL (North Alabama line) to the North. 
AGS thru the wye to Meridian and Chattanooga. 
CG thru the wye to Birmingham. Crossing AGS. 
SAL to Atlanta thru the wye and crossing AGS. 
Southern from Atlanta used the AGS line from Irondale. 

L&N did not go to Terminal but crossed the wye. Sloss also crossed the wye and the AGS had a yard inside the wye to serve downtown industries like Sloss. 

IC, ABC, and SAL jointly owned the Birmingham Terminal which crossed under the AGS and L&N down near Union Station and 14th st to get to the SAL yard two blocks south of where the SAL crossed the AGS to access Terminal Station. 

The other industrial lines also had trackage in the area. Plus the street car system. Birmingham was a spaghetti bowl of rail at its height. 
<Birmingham rrn_1.jpg>


Jason Greene 

On Oct 8, 2021, at 8:32 PM, C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...> wrote:

I am curious how the through passenger train services accessed Birmingham Terminal Station. For instance, for the SLSF - Southern services, I would think that Frisco arrived and departed the north end and the connecting Southern trains used the south end, so those trains were essentially a through operation. What about Southern's own through trains such as The Southerner and the Pelican. Did they head-in/back-out or back-in/head-out of the south end, or did they use different lines on the way in than the way out so that those trains could operate through? What about the Illinois Central - Central of Georgia through trains?

I appreciate any help with this topic.

Jack Wyatt  
<Birmingham rrn_1.jpg>
Marv Clemons
 

Jack,

Here's an labeled photo of Terminal Station and surrounding trackage taken from my book that may help you better understand how trains accessed the station.  For orientation, the view is looking to the northwest.  Let me know if I can help with any further information on the station or passenger train operations.

Marv Clemons
C J Wyatt
 

Thanks Marv.

To say the least, that aerial view is inspirational.

I still have a question about one movement. Is there an west leg of a wye on the south side of the station where something like the FM motorcar train, Goldenrod, could head directly out or directly in?

It's helpful seeing the coach yards. Did the other railroads not shown with a coach yard use something close to their main yards? I guess the steam locomotives were hosteled to and from each railroads' roundhouses?

Is your book about the station sold out? I know Birmingham Rails has been for a long time, but I seem to recall that you released an electronic version on a DVD? Is that available.

Thanks for you help, and I am sure that I will have a lot more questions as I study the operations.

Jack Wyatt

On Saturday, October 9, 2021, 01:21:27 PM EDT, Marv Clemons <mclemonsjr@...> wrote:


Jack,

Here's an labeled photo of Terminal Station and surrounding trackage taken from my book that may help you better understand how trains accessed the station.  For orientation, the view is looking to the northwest.  Let me know if I can help with any further information on the station or passenger train operations.

Marv Clemons

Marv Clemons
 

Thanks, Jack, I'm glad you found the aerial view helpful. 

There was, in fact, a connecting track which appears as a north leg of a wye visible at the south end of the station, where the Pullman yard joins the ladder.  Look and you'll see a set of diesels sitting on the ladder just north of the 2nd Avenue crossing.  That "leg" was used to interchange passenger movements with the L&N's Union Station, but did not connect with the AGS mains.  The "Goldenrod" and "Vulcan" both headed in and backed out to Puzzle Switches, as did other AGS passenger trains.  I hope this explanation helps rather than confuses ;o)

As for the books, I have a small reserve of maybe a dozen or so copies of the limited edition of "Birmingham Rails" still new in the box and carry a few copies to train shows in case there's an interested buyer.  The price is embarrassing and I won't mention it here, but I do keep a copy listed as a collectible on Amazon if you'd care to take a look.

I did produce a digital copy of the book as a searchable PDF to make the book's content accessible at an affordable price.  It's copy protected on its own thumb drive and sells for a small fraction of the collectible print edition and is available from my Ebay store under "Birminghamrails", or you can order a copy directly from me.

Let me know if I can help you further with your research into the Birmingham District and I'll be happy to oblige.  I should mention I also owe a good deal of my research to the SRHA archives.  We are most fortunate to have Ike's generous assistance and knowledge at our disposal.

Marv
Marv Clemons
 

Jack,

I meant to mention that signed copies of "Great Temple of Travel" are still available.  Let me know if interested.

Marv
SouRwyFan
 

So Marv,

I'm curious, it looks like from the aerial view the tracks that were left and used at the small station Southern built and used till Amtrak were actually originally Frisco's coach yard tracks when BT was still open?

Best Regards, 
Rahl
Marv Clemons
 

Rahl,

The "Southern Crescent" used the platform serving former station Tracks 9 & 10.  The former Frisco coach yard was a single track accessed by a hand throw switch on either end of Track 10.  It was later stub ended on the north end and used primarily as a private car track.

Marv
SouRwyFan
 

Thanks Marv,

I remember that track well during the 70's.
Interesting that it was called a "coach yard", maybe coach storage track? He he.

Best Regards, 
Rahl
Carl Ardrey
 

No. 2 departing 1977.
CEA

On 10/11/2021 11:57 AM SouRwyFan via groups.io <blackaerocoupe@...> wrote:
 
 
Thanks Marv,

I remember that track well during the 70's.
Interesting that it was called a "coach yard", maybe coach storage track? He he.

Best Regards, 
Rahl

Marv Clemons
 

Nice pic, Carl. What I'd give to again hear those throaty E's notching out.

Marv
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