locked CTC on the Atlanta-Bham line


James Walton
 

Does anyone know when the Southern's Atlanta-Birmingham line converted to CTC?


Carl Ardrey
 

1981
CEA

On 10/03/2021 12:39 AM James Walton <whovianwil@...> wrote:
 
 
Does anyone know when the Southern's Atlanta-Birmingham line converted to CTC?


James Walton
 

Woah, that's surprisingly late for such an important part of the Southern's network. Any reason it took so long?


On Sun, Oct 3, 2021, 09:19 CARL ARDREY <carlardrey2005@...> wrote:
1981
CEA
On 10/03/2021 12:39 AM James Walton <whovianwil@...> wrote:
 
 
Does anyone know when the Southern's Atlanta-Birmingham line converted to CTC?


Carl Ardrey
 

CTC wasn't common on Western Lines.  Southern liked to make sure the ROI was there.
CEA

On 10/03/2021 9:14 PM James Walton <whovianwil@...> wrote:
 
 
Woah, that's surprisingly late for such an important part of the Southern's network. Any reason it took so long?

On Sun, Oct 3, 2021, 09:19 CARL ARDREY < carlardrey2005@...> wrote:
1981
CEA
On 10/03/2021 12:39 AM James Walton < whovianwil@...> wrote:
 
 
Does anyone know when the Southern's Atlanta-Birmingham line converted to CTC?


James Walton
 

Odd to imagine TT&TO still being used so late.


On Mon, Oct 4, 2021, 10:25 CARL ARDREY <carlardrey2005@...> wrote:
CTC wasn't common on Western Lines.  Southern liked to make sure the ROI was there.
CEA
On 10/03/2021 9:14 PM James Walton <whovianwil@...> wrote:
 
 
Woah, that's surprisingly late for such an important part of the Southern's network. Any reason it took so long?

On Sun, Oct 3, 2021, 09:19 CARL ARDREY < carlardrey2005@...> wrote:
1981
CEA
On 10/03/2021 12:39 AM James Walton < whovianwil@...> wrote:
 
 
Does anyone know when the Southern's Atlanta-Birmingham line converted to CTC?


George Eichelberger
 

Connecting control points and track circuits from along a route to CTC machines was not a trivial (or inexpensive) project. The Southern's C&S Dept. was innovative when they adapted the signaling (E&M in tech talk) leads from analog voice channels to individual control points. Getting CTC codes from dispatch centers to individual microwave towers was relatively easy but in most cases copper cables were used to extend the MW channels from the microwave towers to the CPs.

Many of those cables dated to when buried cables replaced open wires on poles for line side telephones. Putting new cables in the ground to reach to MW towers that were around 20 miles apart for CTC was a significant cost.

Now, the MW is all digital, data radio is used to get to most CPs and everything uses the Internet Protocols (TCP/IP) that provides alternate routes to everything. As far as I could determine, NS was the first railroad anywhere to use “IP” for train control on a large scale. 

(The NS entire data network, including Conrail, was my design. Southern’s (useful, usually) “if it ain’t broke” mentality made “selling” a radically new network idea really difficult. I have to compliment NS management on their decision to spend $50M to do the upgrade at the same time CSX was outsourcing everything to ATT. I’ll never forget David Goode asking “Do you realize you are asking me to spend $50M when CSX is getting rid of their comms systems?" The answer must have been good because it represents what I consider a competitive advantage for NS to this day!)

Ike


On Oct 4, 2021, at 10:53 AM, James Walton <whovianwil@...> wrote:

Odd to imagine TT&TO still being used so late.

On Mon, Oct 4, 2021, 10:25 CARL ARDREY <carlardrey2005@...> wrote:
CTC wasn't common on Western Lines.  Southern liked to make sure the ROI was there.
CEA
On 10/03/2021 9:14 PM James Walton <whovianwil@...> wrote:
 
 
Woah, that's surprisingly late for such an important part of the Southern's network. Any reason it took so long?

On Sun, Oct 3, 2021, 09:19 CARL ARDREY < carlardrey2005@...> wrote:
1981
CEA
On 10/03/2021 12:39 AM James Walton < whovianwil@...> wrote:
 
 
Does anyone know when the Southern's Atlanta-Birmingham line converted to CTC?


D. Scott Chatfield
 

The H Line south of Atlanta wasn't converted to CTC until, what, 1988?

Scott Chatfield


James Walton
 

Ah okay, I'd forgotten about ABS. The ancient TT&TO system was starting to disappear on many railroads by the 40s.


On Mon, Oct 4, 2021, 11:43 D. Scott Chatfield <blindog@...> wrote:
The H Line south of Atlanta wasn't converted to CTC until, what, 1988?

Scott Chatfield


James Walton
 

I realize now I should asked when TT&TO was done away with, rather than when CTC was implemented.


On Mon, Oct 4, 2021, 11:51 James Walton via groups.io <whovianwil=gmail.com@groups.io> wrote:
Ah okay, I'd forgotten about ABS. The ancient TT&TO system was starting to disappear on many railroads by the 40s.

On Mon, Oct 4, 2021, 11:43 D. Scott Chatfield <blindog@...> wrote:
The H Line south of Atlanta wasn't converted to CTC until, what, 1988?

Scott Chatfield


George Eichelberger
 

Here’s an ATS/ATC map from 1947….

Now for a gripe! I have mentioned how much material there is in the SRHA archives many times. Actually, it’s pretty useless if people will not go to Chattanooga to see what’s there. I realize we are in the “Google” era and many people will not travel farther than their PC keyboards.

Anyone is welcome...….Flame me off line if you wish….

Ike


On Oct 4, 2021, at 11:53 AM, James Walton <whovianwil@...> wrote:

I realize now I should asked when TT&TO was done away with, rather than when CTC was implemented.

On Mon, Oct 4, 2021, 11:51 James Walton via groups.io <whovianwil=gmail.com@groups.io> wrote:
Ah okay, I'd forgotten about ABS. The ancient TT&TO system was starting to disappear on many railroads by the 40s.

On Mon, Oct 4, 2021, 11:43 D. Scott Chatfield <blindog@...> wrote:
The H Line south of Atlanta wasn't converted to CTC until, what, 1988?

Scott Chatfield





C J Wyatt
 

I wonder where Southern's first CTC installation was?

Jack Wyatt

On Monday, October 4, 2021, 12:11:37 PM EDT, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:


Here’s an ATS/ATC map from 1947….

Now for a gripe! I have mentioned how much material there is in the SRHA archives many times. Actually, it’s pretty useless if people will not go to Chattanooga to see what’s there. I realize we are in the “Google” era and many people will not travel farther than their PC keyboards.

Anyone is welcome...….Flame me off line if you wish….

Ike


On Oct 4, 2021, at 11:53 AM, James Walton <whovianwil@...> wrote:

I realize now I should asked when TT&TO was done away with, rather than when CTC was implemented.

On Mon, Oct 4, 2021, 11:51 James Walton via groups.io <whovianwil=gmail.com@groups.io> wrote:
Ah okay, I'd forgotten about ABS. The ancient TT&TO system was starting to disappear on many railroads by the 40s.

On Mon, Oct 4, 2021, 11:43 D. Scott Chatfield <blindog@...> wrote:
The H Line south of Atlanta wasn't converted to CTC until, what, 1988?

Scott Chatfield





Carl Ardrey
 

Train orders and timetable schedules were phased out in late '80's/early '90's in favor of track warrant control.
CEA

On 10/04/2021 10:53 AM James Walton <whovianwil@...> wrote:
 
 
I realize now I should asked when TT&TO was done away with, rather than when CTC was implemented.

On Mon, Oct 4, 2021, 11:51 James Walton via groups.io <whovianwil= gmail.com@groups.io> wrote:
Ah okay, I'd forgotten about ABS. The ancient TT&TO system was starting to disappear on many railroads by the 40s.

On Mon, Oct 4, 2021, 11:43 D. Scott Chatfield < blindog@...> wrote:
The H Line south of Atlanta wasn't converted to CTC until, what, 1988?
 
Scott Chatfield
 

 

 


C J Wyatt
 

What really got Southern into CTC big time was the elimination of double-track on parts of the CNO&TO and then the Mainline between Atlanta GA and Alexandria VA 

I do wonder if its first installation was a short stretch somewhere which may be viewed as an extended interlocking.

Jack Wyatt

On Monday, October 4, 2021, 12:24:39 PM EDT, C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...> wrote:


I wonder where Southern's first CTC installation was?

Jack Wyatt

On Monday, October 4, 2021, 12:11:37 PM EDT, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:


Here’s an ATS/ATC map from 1947….

Now for a gripe! I have mentioned how much material there is in the SRHA archives many times. Actually, it’s pretty useless if people will not go to Chattanooga to see what’s there. I realize we are in the “Google” era and many people will not travel farther than their PC keyboards.

Anyone is welcome...….Flame me off line if you wish….

Ike


On Oct 4, 2021, at 11:53 AM, James Walton <whovianwil@...> wrote:

I realize now I should asked when TT&TO was done away with, rather than when CTC was implemented.

On Mon, Oct 4, 2021, 11:51 James Walton via groups.io <whovianwil=gmail.com@groups.io> wrote:
Ah okay, I'd forgotten about ABS. The ancient TT&TO system was starting to disappear on many railroads by the 40s.

On Mon, Oct 4, 2021, 11:43 D. Scott Chatfield <blindog@...> wrote:
The H Line south of Atlanta wasn't converted to CTC until, what, 1988?

Scott Chatfield





John Hedrick
 

I understand that the south end of the AGS (Birmingham - Meridian) was an early CTC installation.

Parts of the Atlanta-Birmingham line were remote control territory, both ends and Anniston, AL, while the remainder of the line was TT-TO with ABS.

John O. Hedrick


C J Wyatt
 

Thanks. I don't think either of those CTC installations took place before the end of WWII, and probably did not occur at least until the 1950s.

I don't see CTC in my April 26, 1948 AGS employee timetable, or in my Sept. 29, 1946 Birmingham Div. ETT.

Jack Wyatt

On Tuesday, October 5, 2021, 11:11:30 PM EDT, John Hedrick <johedrick6@...> wrote:


I understand that the south end of the AGS (Birmingham - Meridian) was an early CTC installation.

Parts of the Atlanta-Birmingham line were remote control territory, both ends and Anniston, AL, while the remainder of the line was TT-TO with ABS.

John O. Hedrick


D. Scott Chatfield
 

> I realize now I should asked when TT&TO was done away with, rather than when CTC was implemented.


TT&TO wasn't done away with until it was replaced by either CTC or Track Warrant Control, and that happened across the system by 1991 IIRC.  Whenever it was that NS adopted what amounted to the General Code of Operating Rules, which by then did not have TT&TO.

Keep in mind that ABS signaling was only a safety overlay to lines then controlled by TT&TO.  It did not replace TT&TO.

Scott Chatfield


Marv Clemons
 

I don't know the exact date, but CTC was installed on the AGS between Burstall and Meridian shortly before the infamous head-on collision at Woodstock, AL occurred in November, 1951. 

Marv Clemons