locked Enoree River
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Roy McLain
In which passenger train was Pullman “Enoree River” mostly used?
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Enoree River was built for the Crescent in 1949 and began service on that train in 1950. While it might have been used on other trains from time to time, Enoree’s home was 37 & 38.
Doug Sent from my portable UNIVAC Computational Machine.
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Bill Schafer
It was originally assigned to the Crescent, and the car ran in that train off and on for years. It also ran on the Southerner in the 1960s, according to some consists I have seen. Does anybody know if the Enoree River operated on other Southern trains or even in Pullman charter service prior to, say, 1965?
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George Eichelberger
I’ve attached a photo of Sou 3252 “Emory River” taken Atlanta, GA 4-5-72 O.W. Kimsey, Jr. photo. Bill Schafer may be able to tell us which train the car is operarting in?
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Note the unpainted roof.. I’ve also attached two memos from the SRHA archives - Hayne Shop files that may be of interest although the unpainted roof in 1972 is not explained. (More research is needed….) Ike   
On Aug 6, 2019, at 2:49 PM, Doug Alexander <doug_alexander@...> wrote: Enoree River was built for the Crescent in 1949 and began service on that train in 1950. While it might have been used on other trains from time to time, Enoree’s home was 37 & 38. Doug
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Bill
As a matter of fact SRHA does have records of some movements of the Enoree River. The car shows being inspected on 12/11/56 and 12/12/56 in Charlotte. The first day it was in The Southerner and the second day is was part of The Crescent’s consist.
The car line number on 47/48 was SR41 and on 37/38 the car line was S21.
The first inspection wasn’t bad but did note that the car made excessive squeaking noises and the center plates/trucks, coupler carrier irons and buffer diaphragm mechanisms should be greased to make the car quieter. It was also noted that the
car was riding 1-1/2” low on the vestibule end and 3-1/2” low on the blind end. This caused issues with coupling the tightlock interlocking couplers as well as matching up footplates so there was no tripping hazard.
Apparently Pullman or Southern was able to do some quick work and correct the issues. On the second day the inspector made the interesting note that “This car is now ok and rides good, it has no noises and matches up very good (footplates between
cars). Get ‘em all like this one.”
These inspection forms came from the archives in Chattanooga. I am in the process of transcribing the info from scanned forms into a spreadsheet. This kind of info is invaluable in that inspectors not only noted defects with the cars, but also
the train numbers, dates, locations, and car line number.
Kevin
On Aug 6, 2019, at 4:39 PM, Bill Schafer <bill4501@...> wrote:
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Bill Schafer
If the picture dates from 1972, there’s only one train the sleeper could be operating in - trains 1 and 2, the Southern Crescent. I notice the neighboring sleeper and dining car also still have silver roofs, even though the SR monogram has been applied next to the doorway of the Emory River. I had thought that the monograms were applied the same time that the roofs were painted black, but apparently I was wrong.
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TVRM’s Budd coach currently under refurbishment, SOU 832, will (I think) emerge with a stainless roof again, and be without the SR monogram, which would be correct for pre-1968 cars. Based on the Kimsey photo, stainless roofs with the monogram are correct for the 1968-1972 period at the least. —Bill
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Curt Fortenberry
Alaska RR got several of the SR coaches (one CofG) after Amtrak took over the Crescent (all Budd built). Roofs varied among the lot. Some fluted roofs, some smooth (were these replacement roofs?). Some natural metal, some black. Photos can be found here: http://www.alaskarails.org/fp/passenger/passenger-roster-retired.html Scroll down to the 5200 group. Curt Fortenberry
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Curt
Budds were built with fluted roofs. Being of all stainless construction, the cars were-and in many cases still are-practically indestructible. Unfortunately they leak. Sometimes a little silicon will do the trick, but some are a little worse.
Southern fixed the issue by applying smooth stainless over the flutes. SOU 665 (former CofGa 665) at Southern Appalachia Ry Museum is a good example of this. Built by Budd with a fluted roof with smooth panels applied by Southern.
Kevin
On Aug 6, 2019, at 7:02 PM, Curt Fortenberry <curtfortenberry@...> wrote:
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David Payne
I thought the smooth roof on 665 came after the "roll-over" at Second Avenue in Columbus. I don't recall the date, and I'm not going to look for it, but it could have been post-Southern acquisition and following Southern practices. Of course, a "little" warping and twisting in a roll-over could cause a "few" leaks ...
DPayne
In a message dated 8/6/2019 7:21:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, klcenters@... writes:
SOU 665 (former CofGa 665) at Southern Appalachia Ry Museum is a good example of this. Built by Budd with a fluted roof with smooth panels applied by Southern.
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Ultimately that probably led to the smooth roof. After Budd repaired the wreck damage it retained the fluted roof for a while. At some point Southern got tired of the leaks and installed a smooth roof.
The thing to remember about a Budd is that the roof was part of the structure of the car. The fluted roof allowed greater strength without the weight cost of structural beams.
On Aug 6, 2019, at 7:37 PM, David Payne via Groups.Io <davidcofga@...> wrote:
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David Payne
Thanks. That's more than I had heard/seen/read before; just assumed that the smooth roof was part of the repair.
Daivd
In a message dated 8/6/2019 7:46:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, klcenters@... writes:
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Ed Mims
David, you are correct. Budd applied the smooth roof prior to June, 1963.
Ed
From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io [mailto:main@SouthernRailway.groups.io] On Behalf Of David Payne via Groups.Io
Thanks. That's more than I had heard/seen/read before; just assumed that the smooth roof was part of the repair. Daivd
In a message dated 8/6/2019 7:46:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, klcenters@... writes:
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Ed Mims
The CofGa car 665 (formerly Fort McPherson) was wrecked and repaired by Budd. That is why it has a smooth stainless steel roof. See attachment.
Stainless steel does not corrode but it is not totally indestructible. Stainless steel will fatigue in service and fracture (crack). Once this begins it is irreversible. The pre-war cars had this problem with the early design of center sills. Later designs were heavier and stayed in regular service for many years. Post war cars were much sturdier and some remain in service today (example: VIA RAIL THE CANADIAN).
Ed Mims
From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io [mailto:main@SouthernRailway.groups.io] On Behalf Of Kevin Centers
Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2019 7:21 PM To: main@southernrailway.groups.io Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Enoree River
Curt
Budds were built with fluted roofs. Being of all stainless construction, the cars were-and in many cases still are-practically indestructible. Unfortunately they leak. Sometimes a little silicon will do the trick, but some are a little worse. Southern fixed the issue by applying smooth stainless over the flutes. SOU 665 (former CofGa 665) at Southern Appalachia Ry Museum is a good example of this. Built by Budd with a fluted roof with smooth panels applied by Southern.
Kevin
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George Eichelberger
To remind everyone, the August archives work session is Friday and Saturday August 16 and 17. Several of us will be there starting Thursday.
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Ike
On Aug 6, 2019, at 6:16 PM, Kevin Centers <klcenters@...> wrote: Bill
As a matter of fact SRHA does have records of some movements of the Enoree River. The car shows being inspected on 12/11/56 and 12/12/56 in Charlotte. The first day it was in The Southerner and the second day is was part of The Crescent’s consist.
The car line number on 47/48 was SR41 and on 37/38 the car line was S21.
The first inspection wasn’t bad but did note that the car made excessive squeaking noises and the center plates/trucks, coupler carrier irons and buffer diaphragm mechanisms should be greased to make the car quieter. It was also noted that the
car was riding 1-1/2” low on the vestibule end and 3-1/2” low on the blind end. This caused issues with coupling the tightlock interlocking couplers as well as matching up footplates so there was no tripping hazard.
Apparently Pullman or Southern was able to do some quick work and correct the issues. On the second day the inspector made the interesting note that “This car is now ok and rides good, it has no noises and matches up very good (footplates between
cars). Get ‘em all like this one.”
These inspection forms came from the archives in Chattanooga. I am in the process of transcribing the info from scanned forms into a spreadsheet. This kind of info is invaluable in that inspectors not only noted defects with the cars, but also
the train numbers, dates, locations, and car line number.
Kevin
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Ed Mims
Another view of CG 665 (Fort McPherson) showing the date of the accident.
Ed
From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io [mailto:main@SouthernRailway.groups.io] On Behalf Of David Payne via Groups.Io
Thanks. That's more than I had heard/seen/read before; just assumed that the smooth roof was part of the repair. Daivd
In a message dated 8/6/2019 7:46:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, klcenters@... writes:
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Ed
You wouldn’t happen to have a picture of the car post wreck but prior to going to Southern? I don’t, but would love to see it.
I question that Budd applied the smooth roof, primarily because they would still have the tooling set up to remove the damaged portions of the original roof and replace them with fluted material. In looking at some of the repairs done on the
car by Budd, they pretty well stuck to their going practice at the time-which meant fluted roofs all the way through the Amfleet cars. Not saying it didn’t happen, but my bet is Southern did it since other Budds in the fleet received the same treatment.
Kevin
On Aug 6, 2019, at 8:01 PM, Ed Mims <wemims@...> wrote:
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Ed Mims
Kevin,
I’ve been searching my files to find a photo of 665 after repairs were made but must not have one. I’m beginning to believe that you are correct in that Southern applied the smooth roof but I have always thought differently. I recall the car coming into Jacksonville in about 1965 on the Ponce de Leon with a smooth roof and with Central of Georgia still on the letter board.
Ed
From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io [mailto:main@SouthernRailway.groups.io] On Behalf Of Kevin Centers
Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2019 8:12 PM To: main@southernrailway.groups.io Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Enoree River
Ed
You wouldn’t happen to have a picture of the car post wreck but prior to going to Southern? I don’t, but would love to see it. I question that Budd applied the smooth roof, primarily because they would still have the tooling set up to remove the damaged portions of the original roof and replace them with fluted material. In looking at some of the repairs done on the car by Budd, they pretty well stuck to their going practice at the time-which meant fluted roofs all the way through the Amfleet cars. Not saying it didn’t happen, but my bet is Southern did it since other Budds in the fleet received the same treatment.
Kevin
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Ed
I’m not saying I know it all, but since I’ve been working on helping get it restored for a while, I’m at least pretty familiar with it. And it’s twin the Fort Oglethorpe. Somewhere (there’s a big word) in the SRHA archives, the car files show
it, the Mitchell and Oglethorpe going to Hayne shortly after the merger. Southern did work on the cars-which if memory serves was desperately needed by that time. It wasn’t until March of 1971 that the ownership of the Central cars was transferred to Southern.
Probably in an attempt to preclude Amtrak from taking possession of them since I believe Central technically joined Amtrak on April 1. So it makes sense that Southern could have done the work prior to a change on the letterboard.
Kevin
On Aug 6, 2019, at 8:25 PM, Ed Mims <wemims@...> wrote:
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Ed Mims
Thanks Kevin. I’m interested in what you find out so please keep me informed.
The Central of Georgia did join Amtrak on April 1, 1971. This was a very controversial move by Southern as owner of the CofGa and not join themselves. This allowed the discontinuance of the Nancy Hanks, the Seminole and the City of Miami. The Man O’war had been discontinued previously--don’t recall the date. David Payne will know.
Ed
From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io [mailto:main@SouthernRailway.groups.io] On Behalf Of Kevin Centers
Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2019 8:33 PM To: main@southernrailway.groups.io Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Enoree River
Ed
I’m not saying I know it all, but since I’ve been working on helping get it restored for a while, I’m at least pretty familiar with it. And it’s twin the Fort Oglethorpe. Somewhere (there’s a big word) in the SRHA archives, the car files show it, the Mitchell and Oglethorpe going to Hayne shortly after the merger. Southern did work on the cars-which if memory serves was desperately needed by that time. It wasn’t until March of 1971 that the ownership of the Central cars was transferred to Southern. Probably in an attempt to preclude Amtrak from taking possession of them since I believe Central technically joined Amtrak on April 1. So it makes sense that Southern could have done the work prior to a change on the letterboard.
Kevin
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Mr. Mims,
I happen to have the attached photo of #665 with painted black smooth roof
and ‘Fort McPherson’ on the nameplate. Enjoy!
Ed Locklin at mp367.
From: Ed
Mims
Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2019 8:25 PM
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Enoree River Kevin,
I’ve been searching my files to find a photo of 665 after repairs were made but must not have one. I’m beginning to believe that you are correct in that Southern applied the smooth roof but I have always thought differently. I recall the car coming into Jacksonville in about 1965 on the Ponce de Leon with a smooth roof and with Central of Georgia still on the letter board.
Ed
From:
main@SouthernRailway.groups.io [mailto:main@SouthernRailway.groups.io] On
Behalf Of Kevin Centers
Ed
You wouldn’t happen to have a picture of the car post wreck but prior to going to Southern? I don’t, but would love to see it. I question that Budd applied the smooth roof, primarily because they would still have the tooling set up to remove the damaged portions of the original roof and replace them with fluted material. In looking at some of the repairs done on the car by Budd, they pretty well stuck to their going practice at the time-which meant fluted roofs all the way through the Amfleet cars. Not saying it didn’t happen, but my bet is Southern did it since other Budds in the fleet received the same treatment.
Kevin
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