locked Locos and Traffic on the Atlanta-Birmingham Line


James Walton
 

I've been trying to figure out locomotive classes and traffic were common on the Southern's Atlanta-Birmingham line in the late 40s and 50s. I don't have a copy of Richard Prince's book, so I'm having to make do with sources like steamlocomotive.com - not exactly ideal. 

I know only that the Southerner and the Kansas City-Florida Special used the line, but not much more.


C J Wyatt
 

Southern Railway System had two more pairs of passenger trains on that line during your era. You had another Frisco connection, The Sunnyland, and what could be best described as an overnight local, Nos. 11-12

I can tell you what steam locomotives were common up until '47 or so, but when dieselization got in full swing, the best steam locomotives were more freely moved around the system to runoff remaining flue time.

Just curious if you interests are historical, or are you looking for a location to model.

Hope this helps.

Jack Wyatt

On Sunday, September 19, 2021, 09:29:27 AM EDT, James Walton <whovianwil@...> wrote:


I've been trying to figure out locomotive classes and traffic were common on the Southern's Atlanta-Birmingham line in the late 40s and 50s. I don't have a copy of Richard Prince's book, so I'm having to make do with sources like steamlocomotive.com - not exactly ideal. 

I know only that the Southerner and the Kansas City-Florida Special used the line, but not much more.


James Walton
 

I'm interested in the line for both historical and potential modelling purposes. 

Do you know what steam and diesel locomotive types were commonly used?


On Sun, Sep 19, 2021, 13:53 C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...> wrote:
Southern Railway System had two more pairs of passenger trains on that line during your era. You had another Frisco connection, The Sunnyland, and what could be best described as an overnight local, Nos. 11-12

I can tell you what steam locomotives were common up until '47 or so, but when dieselization got in full swing, the best steam locomotives were more freely moved around the system to runoff remaining flue time.

Just curious if you interests are historical, or are you looking for a location to model.

Hope this helps.

Jack Wyatt

On Sunday, September 19, 2021, 09:29:27 AM EDT, James Walton <whovianwil@...> wrote:


I've been trying to figure out locomotive classes and traffic were common on the Southern's Atlanta-Birmingham line in the late 40s and 50s. I don't have a copy of Richard Prince's book, so I'm having to make do with sources like steamlocomotive.com - not exactly ideal. 

I know only that the Southerner and the Kansas City-Florida Special used the line, but not much more.


C J Wyatt
 

I think that I can speak for early 1947. Steam locomotives regularly used would be AGS and Birmingham Division assigned, though assignments were starting to go via the wayside. 

passenger locomotives:

4-6-2 Class Ps-4

4-8-2 Class Ts and Ts-1 (USRA light)

freight locomotives:

2-8-2  Class Ms, Ms-1 (USRA light and copies), Ms-4  (USRA heavy copies), and Ms-7 (acquired from Erie RR during WWII, some with Vanderbilt tenders)
 
2-8-8-2 Class Ls-2 (simple) and maybe Ls-1 (compound)

2-8-0 Class Ks (maybe, but Class Ms frequently used for local freight)

I don't think F-units were showing up regularly on through freight's so the E6 on The Southerner might be the only diesel which you would see. Want more diesel's than steam locomotives? Skip forward until 1950.

At one time I considered modeling the Birmingham Division, so if you would like to have a conversation sometime,  I'd be glad to talk with you.

Jack Wyatt


On Sunday, September 19, 2021, 03:17:04 PM EDT, James Walton <whovianwil@...> wrote:


I'm interested in the line for both historical and potential modelling purposes. 

Do you know what steam and diesel locomotive types were commonly used?

On Sun, Sep 19, 2021, 13:53 C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...> wrote:
Southern Railway System had two more pairs of passenger trains on that line during your era. You had another Frisco connection, The Sunnyland, and what could be best described as an overnight local, Nos. 11-12

I can tell you what steam locomotives were common up until '47 or so, but when dieselization got in full swing, the best steam locomotives were more freely moved around the system to runoff remaining flue time.

Just curious if you interests are historical, or are you looking for a location to model.

Hope this helps.

Jack Wyatt

On Sunday, September 19, 2021, 09:29:27 AM EDT, James Walton <whovianwil@...> wrote:


I've been trying to figure out locomotive classes and traffic were common on the Southern's Atlanta-Birmingham line in the late 40s and 50s. I don't have a copy of Richard Prince's book, so I'm having to make do with sources like steamlocomotive.com - not exactly ideal. 

I know only that the Southerner and the Kansas City-Florida Special used the line, but not much more.


Aidrian Bridgeman-Sutton
 

Perhaps I might add some notes to Jack's summary; it was he who got me interested in this part of the system 20 something years ago. 

Frank Ardrey was very active in the area in the forties and took a lot of photos which are well worth hunting down. Many of his pictures a loco portraits, but he took a good number of train photos on the Birmingham Divsion which are well worth looking up

Prior to 1946 there were some restrictive bridge limits, which precluded heavier engines such as Ms-4s and Ps-4. Before WW2 this meant that Ts and Ts-1 Mountains, Ms and Ms-1 Mikados handled the great majority of trains with some locals using K class 2-8-0s. . Ps-2 Pacifics seem to have mostly been used on the line to Sheffield. The simple 2-8-8-2s appeared somewhere about 1940-41 as best I can tell -  compounds seem to have mostly been used for mine traffic from a rather earlier date.     

I don't seem to have any evidence of Ps-4s on the Birmingham Division; that doesn't mean it didn't happen, as many AGS steam engines were deployed when that line started to be dieselised. 
  • Ts  1461.1462  
  • Ts1 1481, 1492 (though she seems to have moved around a bit during and after WW2), 1499 
  • Ms 4541. 4548 though I suspect these may have been used mostly for local traffic in the post war period
  • Ms-1  - the series from 4765-4774 - these had size 3 Worthington BL feed water heaters, and other detail differences to the standard USRA engines
  • Ls-1 compound - the only compound I have a photo of to date is 4019
  • Ls-2 simple  - I don't have a photo to immediately to hand with a legible number hand but 4050 rings a bell
Post war the ex-Erie mikados, AGS Ts-1s, Ms-1s, Ms-4s and former Eastern line Ms4s joined in along with FTs in ABBA configuration about (though at least one Frank Ardrey photo has an F3 B-unit replacing one of the FT units. E6s were used on the Southerner

Traffic needs an epistle all of its own, but one curiosity is that loaded coal hoppers moved in both directions - coal from the Alabama mines went east (including a fair number of Frisco hoppers), but a few photos indicate that what was most probably metallurgical coal came west  - usually in  N&W hoppers, but I have seen a photo which includes a C&O car as well. Given where the loads probably originated, the routing of these westbound coal loads seems really odd, but they are definitely coming from the Atlanta direction.

Aidrian


Virus-free. www.avast.com

On Sun, Sep 19, 2021 at 10:07 PM C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...> wrote:
I think that I can speak for early 1947. Steam locomotives regularly used would be AGS and Birmingham Division assigned, though assignments were starting to go via the wayside. 

passenger locomotives:

4-6-2 Class Ps-4

4-8-2 Class Ts and Ts-1 (USRA light)

freight locomotives:

2-8-2  Class Ms, Ms-1 (USRA light and copies), Ms-4  (USRA heavy copies), and Ms-7 (acquired from Erie RR during WWII, some with Vanderbilt tenders)
 
2-8-8-2 Class Ls-2 (simple) and maybe Ls-1 (compound)

2-8-0 Class Ks (maybe, but Class Ms frequently used for local freight)

I don't think F-units were showing up regularly on through freight's so the E6 on The Southerner might be the only diesel which you would see. Want more diesel's than steam locomotives? Skip forward until 1950.

At one time I considered modeling the Birmingham Division, so if you would like to have a conversation sometime,  I'd be glad to talk with you.

Jack Wyatt


On Sunday, September 19, 2021, 03:17:04 PM EDT, James Walton <whovianwil@...> wrote:


I'm interested in the line for both historical and potential modelling purposes. 

Do you know what steam and diesel locomotive types were commonly used?

On Sun, Sep 19, 2021, 13:53 C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...> wrote:
Southern Railway System had two more pairs of passenger trains on that line during your era. You had another Frisco connection, The Sunnyland, and what could be best described as an overnight local, Nos. 11-12

I can tell you what steam locomotives were common up until '47 or so, but when dieselization got in full swing, the best steam locomotives were more freely moved around the system to runoff remaining flue time.

Just curious if you interests are historical, or are you looking for a location to model.

Hope this helps.

Jack Wyatt

On Sunday, September 19, 2021, 09:29:27 AM EDT, James Walton <whovianwil@...> wrote:


I've been trying to figure out locomotive classes and traffic were common on the Southern's Atlanta-Birmingham line in the late 40s and 50s. I don't have a copy of Richard Prince's book, so I'm having to make do with sources like steamlocomotive.com - not exactly ideal. 

I know only that the Southerner and the Kansas City-Florida Special used the line, but not much more.


Virus-free. www.avast.com


Aidrian Bridgeman-Sutton
 

Sorry, but apparently Mr Brain and Mr Memory were both having bad days at the office. for "1492 (though she seems to have moved around a bit during and after WW2)"  please read "1482" and forget the bit about moving around. 

Aidrian   

Virus-free. www.avast.com


On Mon, Sep 20, 2021 at 5:07 PM Aidrian Bridgeman-Sutton via groups.io <abridgemansutton=gmail.com@groups.io> wrote:
Perhaps I might add some notes to Jack's summary; it was he who got me interested in this part of the system 20 something years ago. 

Frank Ardrey was very active in the area in the forties and took a lot of photos which are well worth hunting down. Many of his pictures a loco portraits, but he took a good number of train photos on the Birmingham Divsion which are well worth looking up

Prior to 1946 there were some restrictive bridge limits, which precluded heavier engines such as Ms-4s and Ps-4. Before WW2 this meant that Ts and Ts-1 Mountains, Ms and Ms-1 Mikados handled the great majority of trains with some locals using K class 2-8-0s. . Ps-2 Pacifics seem to have mostly been used on the line to Sheffield. The simple 2-8-8-2s appeared somewhere about 1940-41 as best I can tell -  compounds seem to have mostly been used for mine traffic from a rather earlier date.     

I don't seem to have any evidence of Ps-4s on the Birmingham Division; that doesn't mean it didn't happen, as many AGS steam engines were deployed when that line started to be dieselised. 
  • Ts  1461.1462  
  • Ts1 1481, 1492 (though she seems to have moved around a bit during and after WW2), 1499 
  • Ms 4541. 4548 though I suspect these may have been used mostly for local traffic in the post war period
  • Ms-1  - the series from 4765-4774 - these had size 3 Worthington BL feed water heaters, and other detail differences to the standard USRA engines
  • Ls-1 compound - the only compound I have a photo of to date is 4019
  • Ls-2 simple  - I don't have a photo to immediately to hand with a legible number hand but 4050 rings a bell
Post war the ex-Erie mikados, AGS Ts-1s, Ms-1s, Ms-4s and former Eastern line Ms4s joined in along with FTs in ABBA configuration about (though at least one Frank Ardrey photo has an F3 B-unit replacing one of the FT units. E6s were used on the Southerner

Traffic needs an epistle all of its own, but one curiosity is that loaded coal hoppers moved in both directions - coal from the Alabama mines went east (including a fair number of Frisco hoppers), but a few photos indicate that what was most probably metallurgical coal came west  - usually in  N&W hoppers, but I have seen a photo which includes a C&O car as well. Given where the loads probably originated, the routing of these westbound coal loads seems really odd, but they are definitely coming from the Atlanta direction.

Aidrian


Virus-free. www.avast.com

On Sun, Sep 19, 2021 at 10:07 PM C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...> wrote:
I think that I can speak for early 1947. Steam locomotives regularly used would be AGS and Birmingham Division assigned, though assignments were starting to go via the wayside. 

passenger locomotives:

4-6-2 Class Ps-4

4-8-2 Class Ts and Ts-1 (USRA light)

freight locomotives:

2-8-2  Class Ms, Ms-1 (USRA light and copies), Ms-4  (USRA heavy copies), and Ms-7 (acquired from Erie RR during WWII, some with Vanderbilt tenders)
 
2-8-8-2 Class Ls-2 (simple) and maybe Ls-1 (compound)

2-8-0 Class Ks (maybe, but Class Ms frequently used for local freight)

I don't think F-units were showing up regularly on through freight's so the E6 on The Southerner might be the only diesel which you would see. Want more diesel's than steam locomotives? Skip forward until 1950.

At one time I considered modeling the Birmingham Division, so if you would like to have a conversation sometime,  I'd be glad to talk with you.

Jack Wyatt


On Sunday, September 19, 2021, 03:17:04 PM EDT, James Walton <whovianwil@...> wrote:


I'm interested in the line for both historical and potential modelling purposes. 

Do you know what steam and diesel locomotive types were commonly used?

On Sun, Sep 19, 2021, 13:53 C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...> wrote:
Southern Railway System had two more pairs of passenger trains on that line during your era. You had another Frisco connection, The Sunnyland, and what could be best described as an overnight local, Nos. 11-12

I can tell you what steam locomotives were common up until '47 or so, but when dieselization got in full swing, the best steam locomotives were more freely moved around the system to runoff remaining flue time.

Just curious if you interests are historical, or are you looking for a location to model.

Hope this helps.

Jack Wyatt

On Sunday, September 19, 2021, 09:29:27 AM EDT, James Walton <whovianwil@...> wrote:


I've been trying to figure out locomotive classes and traffic were common on the Southern's Atlanta-Birmingham line in the late 40s and 50s. I don't have a copy of Richard Prince's book, so I'm having to make do with sources like steamlocomotive.com - not exactly ideal. 

I know only that the Southerner and the Kansas City-Florida Special used the line, but not much more.


Virus-free. www.avast.com


James Walton
 

Thanks all, what you've shown has really helped. 

Does anyone know what switchers the Southern tended to use in their Atlanta and Birmingham yards at this time?

Does anyone know what companies the Southern interchanged with in Bham? I know the Southern and the Frisco were on good terms, so they certainly had an interchange. 

On Mon, Sep 20, 2021, 15:44 Aidrian Bridgeman-Sutton <abridgemansutton@...> wrote:
Sorry, but apparently Mr Brain and Mr Memory were both having bad days at the office. for "1492 (though she seems to have moved around a bit during and after WW2)"  please read "1482" and forget the bit about moving around. 

Aidrian   

Virus-free. www.avast.com

On Mon, Sep 20, 2021 at 5:07 PM Aidrian Bridgeman-Sutton via groups.io <abridgemansutton=gmail.com@groups.io> wrote:
Perhaps I might add some notes to Jack's summary; it was he who got me interested in this part of the system 20 something years ago. 

Frank Ardrey was very active in the area in the forties and took a lot of photos which are well worth hunting down. Many of his pictures a loco portraits, but he took a good number of train photos on the Birmingham Divsion which are well worth looking up

Prior to 1946 there were some restrictive bridge limits, which precluded heavier engines such as Ms-4s and Ps-4. Before WW2 this meant that Ts and Ts-1 Mountains, Ms and Ms-1 Mikados handled the great majority of trains with some locals using K class 2-8-0s. . Ps-2 Pacifics seem to have mostly been used on the line to Sheffield. The simple 2-8-8-2s appeared somewhere about 1940-41 as best I can tell -  compounds seem to have mostly been used for mine traffic from a rather earlier date.     

I don't seem to have any evidence of Ps-4s on the Birmingham Division; that doesn't mean it didn't happen, as many AGS steam engines were deployed when that line started to be dieselised. 
  • Ts  1461.1462  
  • Ts1 1481, 1492 (though she seems to have moved around a bit during and after WW2), 1499 
  • Ms 4541. 4548 though I suspect these may have been used mostly for local traffic in the post war period
  • Ms-1  - the series from 4765-4774 - these had size 3 Worthington BL feed water heaters, and other detail differences to the standard USRA engines
  • Ls-1 compound - the only compound I have a photo of to date is 4019
  • Ls-2 simple  - I don't have a photo to immediately to hand with a legible number hand but 4050 rings a bell
Post war the ex-Erie mikados, AGS Ts-1s, Ms-1s, Ms-4s and former Eastern line Ms4s joined in along with FTs in ABBA configuration about (though at least one Frank Ardrey photo has an F3 B-unit replacing one of the FT units. E6s were used on the Southerner

Traffic needs an epistle all of its own, but one curiosity is that loaded coal hoppers moved in both directions - coal from the Alabama mines went east (including a fair number of Frisco hoppers), but a few photos indicate that what was most probably metallurgical coal came west  - usually in  N&W hoppers, but I have seen a photo which includes a C&O car as well. Given where the loads probably originated, the routing of these westbound coal loads seems really odd, but they are definitely coming from the Atlanta direction.

Aidrian


Virus-free. www.avast.com

On Sun, Sep 19, 2021 at 10:07 PM C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...> wrote:
I think that I can speak for early 1947. Steam locomotives regularly used would be AGS and Birmingham Division assigned, though assignments were starting to go via the wayside. 

passenger locomotives:

4-6-2 Class Ps-4

4-8-2 Class Ts and Ts-1 (USRA light)

freight locomotives:

2-8-2  Class Ms, Ms-1 (USRA light and copies), Ms-4  (USRA heavy copies), and Ms-7 (acquired from Erie RR during WWII, some with Vanderbilt tenders)
 
2-8-8-2 Class Ls-2 (simple) and maybe Ls-1 (compound)

2-8-0 Class Ks (maybe, but Class Ms frequently used for local freight)

I don't think F-units were showing up regularly on through freight's so the E6 on The Southerner might be the only diesel which you would see. Want more diesel's than steam locomotives? Skip forward until 1950.

At one time I considered modeling the Birmingham Division, so if you would like to have a conversation sometime,  I'd be glad to talk with you.

Jack Wyatt


On Sunday, September 19, 2021, 03:17:04 PM EDT, James Walton <whovianwil@...> wrote:


I'm interested in the line for both historical and potential modelling purposes. 

Do you know what steam and diesel locomotive types were commonly used?

On Sun, Sep 19, 2021, 13:53 C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...> wrote:
Southern Railway System had two more pairs of passenger trains on that line during your era. You had another Frisco connection, The Sunnyland, and what could be best described as an overnight local, Nos. 11-12

I can tell you what steam locomotives were common up until '47 or so, but when dieselization got in full swing, the best steam locomotives were more freely moved around the system to runoff remaining flue time.

Just curious if you interests are historical, or are you looking for a location to model.

Hope this helps.

Jack Wyatt

On Sunday, September 19, 2021, 09:29:27 AM EDT, James Walton <whovianwil@...> wrote:


I've been trying to figure out locomotive classes and traffic were common on the Southern's Atlanta-Birmingham line in the late 40s and 50s. I don't have a copy of Richard Prince's book, so I'm having to make do with sources like steamlocomotive.com - not exactly ideal. 

I know only that the Southerner and the Kansas City-Florida Special used the line, but not much more.


Virus-free. www.avast.com


Jason Greene
 

0-8-0s and 2-8-0s were common in the yards in both Atlanta and Birmingham. Birmingham also had some 0-6-0s still lingering. 

I Birmingham the Southern interchanged with just about everyone. You had the Frisco, IC, CG, AB&C, L&N, SAL (limited), and all the industrial roads. Not far from Birmingham to the north and west you also had the Columbus and Greenville on the old Georgia Pacific. 

Jason Greene 

On Sep 20, 2021, at 6:28 PM, James Walton <whovianwil@...> wrote:


Thanks all, what you've shown has really helped. 

Does anyone know what switchers the Southern tended to use in their Atlanta and Birmingham yards at this time?

Does anyone know what companies the Southern interchanged with in Bham? I know the Southern and the Frisco were on good terms, so they certainly had an interchange. 

On Mon, Sep 20, 2021, 15:44 Aidrian Bridgeman-Sutton <abridgemansutton@...> wrote:
Sorry, but apparently Mr Brain and Mr Memory were both having bad days at the office. for "1492 (though she seems to have moved around a bit during and after WW2)"  please read "1482" and forget the bit about moving around. 

Aidrian   

Virus-free. www.avast.com

On Mon, Sep 20, 2021 at 5:07 PM Aidrian Bridgeman-Sutton via groups.io <abridgemansutton=gmail.com@groups.io> wrote:
Perhaps I might add some notes to Jack's summary; it was he who got me interested in this part of the system 20 something years ago. 

Frank Ardrey was very active in the area in the forties and took a lot of photos which are well worth hunting down. Many of his pictures a loco portraits, but he took a good number of train photos on the Birmingham Divsion which are well worth looking up

Prior to 1946 there were some restrictive bridge limits, which precluded heavier engines such as Ms-4s and Ps-4. Before WW2 this meant that Ts and Ts-1 Mountains, Ms and Ms-1 Mikados handled the great majority of trains with some locals using K class 2-8-0s. . Ps-2 Pacifics seem to have mostly been used on the line to Sheffield. The simple 2-8-8-2s appeared somewhere about 1940-41 as best I can tell -  compounds seem to have mostly been used for mine traffic from a rather earlier date.     

I don't seem to have any evidence of Ps-4s on the Birmingham Division; that doesn't mean it didn't happen, as many AGS steam engines were deployed when that line started to be dieselised. 
  • Ts  1461.1462  
  • Ts1 1481, 1492 (though she seems to have moved around a bit during and after WW2), 1499 
  • Ms 4541. 4548 though I suspect these may have been used mostly for local traffic in the post war period
  • Ms-1  - the series from 4765-4774 - these had size 3 Worthington BL feed water heaters, and other detail differences to the standard USRA engines
  • Ls-1 compound - the only compound I have a photo of to date is 4019
  • Ls-2 simple  - I don't have a photo to immediately to hand with a legible number hand but 4050 rings a bell
Post war the ex-Erie mikados, AGS Ts-1s, Ms-1s, Ms-4s and former Eastern line Ms4s joined in along with FTs in ABBA configuration about (though at least one Frank Ardrey photo has an F3 B-unit replacing one of the FT units. E6s were used on the Southerner

Traffic needs an epistle all of its own, but one curiosity is that loaded coal hoppers moved in both directions - coal from the Alabama mines went east (including a fair number of Frisco hoppers), but a few photos indicate that what was most probably metallurgical coal came west  - usually in  N&W hoppers, but I have seen a photo which includes a C&O car as well. Given where the loads probably originated, the routing of these westbound coal loads seems really odd, but they are definitely coming from the Atlanta direction.

Aidrian


Virus-free. www.avast.com

On Sun, Sep 19, 2021 at 10:07 PM C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...> wrote:
I think that I can speak for early 1947. Steam locomotives regularly used would be AGS and Birmingham Division assigned, though assignments were starting to go via the wayside. 

passenger locomotives:

4-6-2 Class Ps-4

4-8-2 Class Ts and Ts-1 (USRA light)

freight locomotives:

2-8-2  Class Ms, Ms-1 (USRA light and copies), Ms-4  (USRA heavy copies), and Ms-7 (acquired from Erie RR during WWII, some with Vanderbilt tenders)
 
2-8-8-2 Class Ls-2 (simple) and maybe Ls-1 (compound)

2-8-0 Class Ks (maybe, but Class Ms frequently used for local freight)

I don't think F-units were showing up regularly on through freight's so the E6 on The Southerner might be the only diesel which you would see. Want more diesel's than steam locomotives? Skip forward until 1950.

At one time I considered modeling the Birmingham Division, so if you would like to have a conversation sometime,  I'd be glad to talk with you.

Jack Wyatt


On Sunday, September 19, 2021, 03:17:04 PM EDT, James Walton <whovianwil@...> wrote:


I'm interested in the line for both historical and potential modelling purposes. 

Do you know what steam and diesel locomotive types were commonly used?

On Sun, Sep 19, 2021, 13:53 C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...> wrote:
Southern Railway System had two more pairs of passenger trains on that line during your era. You had another Frisco connection, The Sunnyland, and what could be best described as an overnight local, Nos. 11-12

I can tell you what steam locomotives were common up until '47 or so, but when dieselization got in full swing, the best steam locomotives were more freely moved around the system to runoff remaining flue time.

Just curious if you interests are historical, or are you looking for a location to model.

Hope this helps.

Jack Wyatt

On Sunday, September 19, 2021, 09:29:27 AM EDT, James Walton <whovianwil@...> wrote:


I've been trying to figure out locomotive classes and traffic were common on the Southern's Atlanta-Birmingham line in the late 40s and 50s. I don't have a copy of Richard Prince's book, so I'm having to make do with sources like steamlocomotive.com - not exactly ideal. 

I know only that the Southerner and the Kansas City-Florida Special used the line, but not much more.


Virus-free. www.avast.com


C J Wyatt
 

You're welcome, James.

Southern Railway kept a good list of early switcher assignments, so basically name a date. Of course tackling modeling a major terminal in anything less than a club-sized layout is a challenge. The yard in Atlanta was huge and the trains from Birmingham ran with the trains from Chattanooga, east of Austell. In Birmingham, the AGS subsidiary and Southern Railway proper both had their own yards. I do seem to recall that the AGS yard did originate and receive some trains with Atlanta traffic. Unless one wanted their whole basement (or whatever) devoted to Birmingham, I would recommend focusing on just one of the yards. 

The era was during the time of ICC regulation, so everyone interchanged with everyone to a greater or lesser extent depending on how the traffic was routed. The shipper generally selected a route. If the shipper left the route blank (open routing) then the originating railroad could fill in the route.

I don't know if you have seen this website. but there is a wealth of information on it:


Here is another view of the overall map with a white background, enlargeable with good resolution:


If you can find a copy of the Birmingham-Bessemer Terminal Area Co-ordinating Committe Report which the maps were part of, you can find detailed information about the railroad operations and facilities in the area circa 1935, which probably did not change that much into the late forties.

Any other railroads which you are interested in?

Jack Wyatt

In particular, take a look at the 1935 rail maps.

On Monday, September 20, 2021, 06:51:02 PM EDT, James Walton <whovianwil@...> wrote:


Thanks all, what you've shown has really helped. 

Does anyone know what switchers the Southern tended to use in their Atlanta and Birmingham yards at this time?

Does anyone know what companies the Southern interchanged with in Bham? I know the Southern and the Frisco were on good terms, so they certainly had an interchange. 



C J Wyatt
 

In my recent reply, I failed to say early diesel switcher assignments, but Jason is right - a lot of steam switchers were still operating in the mid-forties.

Jack

On Monday, September 20, 2021, 08:02:55 PM EDT, Jason Greene <jason.p.greene@...> wrote:


0-8-0s and 2-8-0s were common in the yards in both Atlanta and Birmingham. Birmingham also had some 0-6-0s still lingering. 

I Birmingham the Southern interchanged with just about everyone. You had the Frisco, IC, CG, AB&C, L&N, SAL (limited), and all the industrial roads. Not far from Birmingham to the north and west you also had the Columbus and Greenville on the old Georgia Pacific. 

Jason Greene 



A&Y Dave in MD
 

“Unless one wanted their whole basement (or whatever) devoted to Birmingham, I would recommend focusing on just one of the yards.”. 
That’s likely an understatement.

Railroads are HUGE.  The yard in Mount Airy, NC in HO scale is 27 feet long and more than 6 feet wide. That’s the end of of a small short line/branch. Birmingham would fill a basement AFTER selective compression.

But you could show off a lot of interesting Southern equipment!

I recall someone doing a series on Mobile facilities in TIES.  Frank Ardrey did a photo series on Birmingham in TIES. We need to find someone to write a more historical series on Birmingham. Might be the way to learn enough to model it well. Sort of how I got into writing the A&Y article with Kevin.  I recommend it as a learning exercise.

Dave

Sent from Dave Bott's iPhone

On Sep 20, 2021, at 8:17 PM, C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...> wrote:

Unless one wanted their whole basement (or whatever) devoted to Birmingham, I would recommend focusing on just one of the yards.


James Walton
 

Very true - though perhaps Tony Koester and his concept of 'selective compression' may be able to help. That is, cut out the things you don't need to focus on showing a version of what you do need.


On Mon, Sep 20, 2021, 20:39 A&Y Dave in MD <dbott@...> wrote:
“Unless one wanted their whole basement (or whatever) devoted to Birmingham, I would recommend focusing on just one of the yards.”. 
That’s likely an understatement.

Railroads are HUGE.  The yard in Mount Airy, NC in HO scale is 27 feet long and more than 6 feet wide. That’s the end of of a small short line/branch. Birmingham would fill a basement AFTER selective compression.

But you could show off a lot of interesting Southern equipment!

I recall someone doing a series on Mobile facilities in TIES.  Frank Ardrey did a photo series on Birmingham in TIES. We need to find someone to write a more historical series on Birmingham. Might be the way to learn enough to model it well. Sort of how I got into writing the A&Y article with Kevin.  I recommend it as a learning exercise.

Dave

Sent from Dave Bott's iPhone

On Sep 20, 2021, at 8:17 PM, C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...> wrote:

Unless one wanted their whole basement (or whatever) devoted to Birmingham, I would recommend focusing on just one of the yards.


Charles Harris
 

Hi
In above post there is mention of     "  I recall someone doing a series on Mobile facilities in TIES.  Frank Ardrey did a photo series on Birmingham in TIES. "

Is someone able to come up with the issues that featured those items, and where I may locate copies of the articles.
Thankyou
Charles


Charles Harris
 

Hi

Fitting in to this discussion is the Ingalls 4-S, built 1946.   Construction of the loco was part done in AL Bham and Decatur etc and part in MS. A lot of testing done in .AL.   I note that Birmingham Tank (part of Ingalls Iron Works) had a site adjacent to the Southern Railway trackage, possibly some work done there.  Must be some records of testing using Southern?
The on 21 March 1946 there was a demonstration of the loco held by Southern and Southwestern Railway Club at terminal station in Atlanta.  Who has more info on this demo.   Anything Ingalls 4-S in fact.

Thanks
Charles Harris


C J Wyatt
 

Hi Charles, I'll let you do the searching because you may come across something else you like while you are doing it:


Jack


On Tuesday, September 21, 2021, 02:45:24 AM EDT, Charles Harris <railroads@...> wrote:


Hi
In above post there is mention of     "  I recall someone doing a series on Mobile facilities in TIES.  Frank Ardrey did a photo series on Birmingham in TIES. "

Is someone able to come up with the issues that featured those items, and where I may locate copies of the articles.
Thankyou
Charles


Charles Harris
 

Hello Jack

Thanks for the link.  Will do and look forward to brousing!  (or however it is spelt)

Charles in New Zealand


C J Wyatt
 

Charles, you're welcome. The index for earlier issues show content, but for the last few years, you just have to discern it from the cover photo.

Jack

On Tuesday, September 21, 2021, 03:16:56 AM EDT, Charles Harris <railroads@...> wrote:


Hello Jack

Thanks for the link.  Will do and look forward to brousing!  (or however it is spelt)

Charles in New Zealand


Gino Damen
 

Hi,

 

Somewhere on the many lists I read this article drifted by.

 

Gino Damen

 

Van: Charles Harris
Verzonden: dinsdag 21 september 2021 08:55
Aan: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io
Onderwerp: Re: [SouthernRailway] Locos and Traffic on the Atlanta-Birmingham Line

 

Hi

Fitting in to this discussion is the Ingalls 4-S, built 1946.   Construction of the loco was part done in AL Bham and Decatur etc and part in MS. A lot of testing done in .AL.   I note that Birmingham Tank (part of Ingalls Iron Works) had a site adjacent to the Southern Railway trackage, possibly some work done there.  Must be some records of testing using Southern?
The on 21 March 1946 there was a demonstration of the loco held by Southern and Southwestern Railway Club at terminal station in Atlanta.  Who has more info on this demo.   Anything Ingalls 4-S in fact.

Thanks
Charles Harris

 


Marv Clemons
 

As Jack Wyatt suggested, trackage appearing in 1935 district map remained largely intact through the '40s and into the early '60s, when mergers and abandonments took hold.  I have full-size 3x5' reprints of the map if you'd like a copy shipped  for $40.

Marv Clemons
Birmingham AL


Aidrian Bridgeman-Sutton
 

That's the sort of approach that John Stewart followed using a scenes-along-the way approach. His website is at http://www.bhamrails.info  -  there is some good protype info in there as well . Ken McElreath had done something similar including a rather compressed Terminal station, but  the pages with a description of his layout seem to have vanished.  

If we're going to continue in the "scale less than 1:1" vein, might I very 'umbly suggest that the purely modelling discussions might possibly be moved to the dedicated subgroup? 

I'd recommend getting Marv's map and also finding copies of his books; I don't think either of them is currently in print but they are well worth hunting out.  
  1. Birmingham Rails: The Last Golden Era: From World War II to Amtrak - this is more generally useful to get an idea of the bigger picture ( and, yes, it is a very big picture) , and includes section about other railroads 
  2. Great Temple of Travel: A Pictorial History of Birmingham Terminal Station; focussed on just one aspect, but well worth reading.  
Aidrian

On Tue, Sep 21, 2021 at 1:42 AM James Walton <whovianwil@...> wrote:
Very true - though perhaps Tony Koester and his concept of 'selective compression' may be able to help. That is, cut out the things you don't need to focus on showing a version of what you do need.


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