Locked Question/Request for information on Ex-Southern Railway Heavyweight Coach
|
Artist794 Workshop
Good-afternoon everyone, My name is Chris Zygmunt, I am new to this group and join hoping someone my have ( or know someone/someplace else) information regarding an Ex-Southern Railway Heavyweight Coach. Bit of Backstory, I am a member of the Friends of the Valley Railroad. A volunteer organization associated with the tourist line, the Valley Railroad, better known as the Essex Steam Train & Riverboat. In 2021 our railroad is turning 50 years old and to help celebrate I have been researching all of our rolling stock and engines history in hopes of using that information to create a series of articles detailing the items life from creation to our line. Last year our line acquired 3 more coaches from the Age of Steam Roundhouse. One was a Ex-Southern Railway Heavyweight Coach with its current number being 3659. Does anyone know where I might be able to find information about this car? Things like who built it?, where it ran?, When it might have left the SR for Ohio?, Photos or drawings of the car?, etc. Any information or leads would be greatly appreciated and thank you for taking the time to read this request. |
|
|
|
TIM ANDREWS
I can't answer all of the questions off the top of my head but I can tell you that the coach was built for the CNOTP subsidiary of the Southern. It was used in excursion service and survived the great dismal swamp wreck in 1986. Because the NS would require tightlock couplers on all excursion cars after the wreck, this car was sidelined rather then being rebuilt. It operated at TVRM for a brief period before being sold to Ohio Central in 1987. If I could find my other car records I could tell you who built it, and when. Tim Andrews Chattanooga, TN
On Monday, May 24, 2021, 02:12:16 PM EDT, Artist794 Workshop <artist794workshop@...> wrote:
Good-afternoon everyone, My name is Chris Zygmunt, I am new to this group and join hoping someone my have ( or know someone/someplace else) information regarding an Ex-Southern Railway Heavyweight Coach. Bit of Backstory, I am a member of the Friends of the Valley Railroad. A volunteer organization associated with the tourist line, the Valley Railroad, better known as the Essex Steam Train & Riverboat. In 2021 our railroad is turning 50 years old and to help celebrate I have been researching all of our rolling stock and engines history in hopes of using that information to create a series of articles detailing the items life from creation to our line. Last year our line acquired 3 more coaches from the Age of Steam Roundhouse. One was a Ex-Southern Railway Heavyweight Coach with its current number being 3659. Does anyone know where I might be able to find information about this car? Things like who built it?, where it ran?, When it might have left the SR for Ohio?, Photos or drawings of the car?, etc. Any information or leads would be greatly appreciated and thank you for taking the time to read this request. |
|
|
|
Artist794 Workshop
Thank you for the information lead!! please let me know if you find those records as well, much appreciated!!. I spent some time this afternoon looking at CNOTP photos online and was able to find some of the car. I do have a question regarding the wreak in 1986. Based on reports I've found online there only were 3 Southern cars on that train and none had the number 3659. Could it be that the car was renumbered? or is it possible that this was a different car and not involved with the wreak? Prior to today I had not heard about the wreak and again spent some time doing some quick research this evening. Regardless thank you, this was a great start and helped fill in some blanks. |
|
|
|
TIM ANDREWS
I don't believe it was remembered. It is possible it was not being used in excursion service by that time, and in fact might have already been on loan to TVRM.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
|
|
|
|
C J Wyatt
I think it is a case of a car being retired, but not scrapped, and then brought back with a new car number in the excursion fleet. My March 1965 Official Register of Passenger Train Equipment shows no such car as 3659 on the roster. In fact it showed no CNO&TP heavyweight coaches still running. If we can find out what the previous number was, I should be able to trace it back to when it was built and by whom. Jack Wyatt
On Monday, May 24, 2021, 09:38:32 PM EDT, TIM ANDREWS <andrewstim@...> wrote:
I don't believe it was remembered. It is possible it was not being used in excursion service by that time, and in fact might have already been on loan to TVRM.
|
|
|
|
Robert W. Grabarek, Jr.
The 3659 appears in the March 1971 Register as a Southern car, but is not shown in the March 1969 Register. Bob Grabarek -----Original Message----- |
|
|
|
C J Wyatt
That is a good piece of information. I wonder if the 3659 has the original number stamped somewhere on the car? Jack
On Monday, May 24, 2021, 11:43:00 PM EDT, Robert W. Grabarek, Jr. <grabarek@...> wrote:
The 3659 appears in the March 1971 Register as a Southern car, but is not shown in the March 1969 Register. Bob Grabarek -----Original Message----- |
|
|
|
George Eichelberger
I hope we can schedule an archives work session (open to vaccinated people) for the third weekend in June (Fri-Sat, 6-17/18) . We’ll post information here and on the SRHA.net home page. I expect we will have a few people at the archives that Thursday if someone wants to make a three-day visit to the archives and TVRM.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Someone can pull the Hayne Shop file on Southern 3659 (?) and we can see its history and disposition there and on its maintenance card (if it remained after the car was gone.) Ike On May 24, 2021, at 10:09 PM, C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...> wrote: I think it is a case of a car being retired, but not scrapped, and then brought back with a new car number in the excursion fleet. My March 1965 Official Register of Passenger Train Equipment shows no such car as 3659 on the roster. In fact it showed no CNO&TP heavyweight coaches still running. If we can find out what the previous number was, I should be able to trace it back to when it was built and by whom. Jack Wyatt
On Monday, May 24, 2021, 09:38:32 PM EDT, TIM ANDREWS <andrewstim@...> wrote:
I don't believe it was remembered. It is possible it was not being used in excursion service by that time, and in fact might have already been on loan to TVRM.
|
|
|
|
Artist794 Workshop
Hello all, Our volunteer organization as started its investigation of the car to see what needs to be addressed. Current plans are not finalized but I'm sure these inspections will tell weather or not the car can be renovated/restored. As of right now we are in the process of removing the seats and flooring in order to inspect/repair parts of the steel floor. While working we found a note listing the car to be built in 1924 by Bethlehem Steel. I'm not sure if this is correct but I thought it would be best to share it with the group if anyone happens to find its file on the archives night. Any information on the car will be extremely helpful for not only its part in my history report but also in future restoration work. P.S. in case anyone is curious I am not sure, nor do I have a say, in if the car will be restored to its original Southern paint. Those are debates for another day, first we need to get the car up to working standards. 
|
|
|
|
George Eichelberger
Chris:
What is the car number, your organization and where is it? Ike |
|
|
|
TIM ANDREWS
I assume this is follow up to the question from last week regarding the 3659, now at the Valley Railroad. I was able to look at the maintenance card in the SRHA archives over the weekend and found the car in card file identified as "Railfan cars". The first entry is Date in 12/31/70 and Date out is 3/10-71. The last entry is Date in 2/3/84 and Date out 4/25/84. There is no other reference to renumbering, or changes to the car as there were on some other cars in the file. In looking a the car diagram book for the mid 1940s I don't see this car number listed so I begin to wonder "what was the original car number and how did it get the new number in the late 1960s or by 12/31/70". I should also note that page 19 ends with 3626 (and two blank spaces) and page 20 starts with 3660 so there is no room for a 3659. You might want to take down a couple of the luggage racks and see if the car number was stamped into the metal. We found the number 1683 (although it was misinterpreted as 1688 which never existed) on our early Southern open window coach at TVRM.
On Tuesday, June 1, 2021, 11:43:54 AM EDT, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:
Chris: What is the car number, your organization and where is it? Ike |
|
|
|
George Eichelberger
Memos referring to car 3659 are in the “Excursion Services” files dated 5-31-68, 8-1-70 and 3-9-79, so we know it was in use then.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Ike On Jun 1, 2021, at 12:11 PM, TIM ANDREWS <ANDREWSTIM@...> wrote: I assume this is follow up to the question from last week regarding the 3659, now at the Valley Railroad. I was able to look at the maintenance card in the SRHA archives over the weekend and found the car in card file identified as "Railfan cars". The first entry is Date in 12/31/70 and Date out is 3/10-71. The last entry is Date in 2/3/84 and Date out 4/25/84. There is no other reference to renumbering, or changes to the car as there were on some other cars in the file. In looking a the car diagram book for the mid 1940s I don't see this car number listed so I begin to wonder "what was the original car number and how did it get the new number in the late 1960s or by 12/31/70". I should also note that page 19 ends with 3626 (and two blank spaces) and page 20 starts with 3660 so there is no room for a 3659. You might want to take down a couple of the luggage racks and see if the car number was stamped into the metal. We found the number 1683 (although it was misinterpreted as 1688 which never existed) on our early Southern open window coach at TVRM.
On Tuesday, June 1, 2021, 11:43:54 AM EDT, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:
Chris: What is the car number, your organization and where is it? Ike |
|
|
|
C J Wyatt
Chris, Bethlehem Steel did build 25 coaches for Southern Railway System in 1924. They were numbered 1614-1633 and CNO&TP 3776-3780. The coaches generally got renumbered when they were rebuilt with reclining seats and sometimes other improvements. Perhaps you can find an original number on a part like Tim suggested. I haven't worked on old railroad passenger cars, but I seem to have in my mind that the electrical cabinet is another place to look for a number. Thanks for helping in saving the car and good luck in finding its original number. Jack Wyatt
On Tuesday, June 1, 2021, 11:37:52 AM EDT, Artist794 Workshop <artist794workshop@...> wrote:
Hello all, Our volunteer organization as started its investigation of the car to see what needs to be addressed. Current plans are not finalized but I'm sure these inspections will tell weather or not the car can be renovated/restored. As of right now we are in the process of removing the seats and flooring in order to inspect/repair parts of the steel floor. While working we found a note listing the car to be built in 1924 by Bethlehem Steel. I'm not sure if this is correct but I thought it would be best to share it with the group if anyone happens to find its file on the archives night. Any information on the car will be extremely helpful for not only its part in my history report but also in future restoration work. P.S. in case anyone is curious I am not sure, nor do I have a say, in if the car will be restored to its original Southern paint. Those are debates for another day, first we need to get the car up to working standards. |
|
|
|
Stephen Warner
Having rode these cars starting in 1960 all the way through the end of SR's scheduled service (on the Knoxville Division and CNO&TP), I can say that you have an "original" car interior, at least through the 1950's or so. I also rode many of these cars that SR "upgraded" from the globe lights and steel overhead racks with newer streamline/modernized-type racks and fluorescent lighting (harsh and glaring at night). I always felt that I was riding Southern back in the 30's in these cars (after all, it was still Timetable and train order operation back then), and tried to pick out one in the consist whenever I climbed on. She will look great.
|
|
|
|
C J Wyatt
Stephen, in the early 1960s Southern still had a few coaches with throw-over seats. I seem to remember catching one of them in a train between Chattanooga and Atlanta. Talk about a time warp! Jack Wyatt
On Wednesday, June 2, 2021, 05:20:40 PM EDT, Stephen Warner <sgwarner88@...> wrote:
Having rode these cars starting in 1960 all the way through the end of SR's scheduled service (on the Knoxville Division and CNO&TP), I can say that you have an "original" car interior, at least through the 1950's or so. I also rode many of these cars that SR "upgraded" from the globe lights and steel overhead racks with newer streamline/modernized-type racks and fluorescent lighting (harsh and glaring at night). I always felt that I was riding Southern back in the 30's in these cars (after all, it was still Timetable and train order operation back then), and tried to pick out one in the consist whenever I climbed on. She will look great.
|
|
|
|
TIM ANDREWS
From the SRHA archives today comes the following from the car maintenance record for car 3659 and dated 11/1/1966  Using the diagram book from Another Man's Treasure we see that the car was originally 1632 which fits the series reported by Jack Wyatt. According to Diagram 30-F-38 the car was built by Bethlehem 1924 was air conditioned in May of 1939 had Green Frieze Pat. 60 upholstery, the "8-3 interior color scheme and the tile #101 and 107 aisle stripe". It weighted 149,600 pounds. From the diagram it had walk over seats and seated 72. Although the date is not given on diagram 31-F-51 dated 12/7/48 the car received reclining seats and reconfigured restrooms and was renumbered 1083. The seating was dropped to 48 seats. 26 cars received this conversion, some at Hayne and some at Chattanooga. Seeing as how the seating was raised to 72 reclining seats and the restrooms were removed, we would assume that took place around 1966. It is interesting to note that the 1058 on the list above is now at TVRM and still has the large restrooms and lower seating capacity. I will keep digging through stuff and see what else I can find. On Wednesday, June 2, 2021, 05:18:23 PM EDT, Stephen Warner <sgwarner88@...> wrote: Having rode these cars starting in 1960 all the way through the end of SR's scheduled service (on the Knoxville Division and CNO&TP), I can say that you have an "original" car interior, at least through the 1950's or so. I also rode many of these cars that SR "upgraded" from the globe lights and steel overhead racks with newer streamline/modernized-type racks and fluorescent lighting (harsh and glaring at night). I always felt that I was riding Southern back in the 30's in these cars (after all, it was still Timetable and train order operation back then), and tried to pick out one in the consist whenever I climbed on. She will look great.
|
|
|
|
C J Wyatt
Tim, thanks for finding the answer. Years ago when I was trying to create an all time roster of Southern Railway passenger cars, a similar renumbering incident, number 1367 in your list, bedeviled me. The original Southern 1367 was a coach built by Pullman in 1909. Therefore I refer to the excursion car as No. 1367 (2nd). Jack Wyatt
On Wednesday, June 2, 2021, 10:12:09 PM EDT, TIM ANDREWS <andrewstim@...> wrote:
From the SRHA archives today comes the following from the car maintenance record for car 3659 and dated 11/1/1966  Using the diagram book from Another Man's Treasure we see that the car was originally 1632 which fits the series reported by Jack Wyatt. According to Diagram 30-F-38 the car was built by Bethlehem 1924 was air conditioned in May of 1939 had Green Frieze Pat. 60 upholstery, the "8-3 interior color scheme and the tile #101 and 107 aisle stripe". It weighted 149,600 pounds. From the diagram it had walk over seats and seated 72. Although the date is not given on diagram 31-F-51 dated 12/7/48 the car received reclining seats and reconfigured restrooms and was renumbered 1083. The seating was dropped to 48 seats. 26 cars received this conversion, some at Hayne and some at Chattanooga. Seeing as how the seating was raised to 72 reclining seats and the restrooms were removed, we would assume that took place around 1966. It is interesting to note that the 1058 on the list above is now at TVRM and still has the large restrooms and lower seating capacity. I will keep digging through stuff and see what else I can find. On Wednesday, June 2, 2021, 05:18:23 PM EDT, Stephen Warner <sgwarner88@...> wrote: Having rode these cars starting in 1960 all the way through the end of SR's scheduled service (on the Knoxville Division and CNO&TP), I can say that you have an "original" car interior, at least through the 1950's or so. I also rode many of these cars that SR "upgraded" from the globe lights and steel overhead racks with newer streamline/modernized-type racks and fluorescent lighting (harsh and glaring at night). I always felt that I was riding Southern back in the 30's in these cars (after all, it was still Timetable and train order operation back then), and tried to pick out one in the consist whenever I climbed on. She will look great.
|
|
|
|
Artist794 Workshop
All I can say is WOW and thank you so much everyone. This is amazing research work and I know myself and many of our crews appreciate it. First to answer an earlier post I just saw now. Yes, this car is now at the Valley Railroad ( Essex Steam Train & Riverboat) in Essex, CT. I myself, am both a employee of the railroad as a Trainmen and as a volunteer with their non profit associated group, The Friends of the Valley Railroad. Our line acquired the car from Age of Steam Roundhouse along with two former Canadian National cars. While no plans have been announce, nor do I speak on behalf of the railroad company, the "Friends" have been working on it during our weekly shop night removing seats and the existing flooring for inspection of the steel under floor and start repairs. As of last night we have 3/4th of the flooring removed. (Many layers of tile, 3/4" plywood, insulation and 2x4s) We found a few areas were the steel floor underneath is damaged and/or corroding away above the south truck/bathroom area. I did take a moment to look around the car and was able to find some metal marked "1632" so with that and the above post from Tim Andrews, I think its safe to say we have identified the car's original number. I also removed some of the flaking "Ohio Central" maroon paint and saw a darker green, almost black. Not sure if that is the correct colors for southern green or if its just a undercoat. I can also confirm there are no Bathrooms on the car but that might help explain the thinner sheets of metal we found at the south end. Could be patches over previous holes. Also on the south end there are 2 cabinets that seem to need a key to open. Without trying to force it too much we could not open them. Another confirmation I can make is that the 6 wheel trucks have "Bethlehem" cast into the frames. However the wheels are roller bearing so I'm not sure if these were upgraded during one of the renovations. Regardless Thank you all again for the help and please let me know if you find anything else. The car seems like its going to be our pet project for the foreseeable future, so I can post updates here if any one is interested. While we are not sure what exactly the cars future hold, I'm hoping that this research can be used to help tell its story and help with restorations. |
|
|
|
TIM ANDREWS
We can get you a sample or current color formula for the Southern Green paint, along with the lettering, if it is decided to go with the Southern colors.
On Thursday, June 3, 2021, 10:10:08 AM EDT, Artist794 Workshop <artist794workshop@...> wrote:
All I can say is WOW and thank you so much everyone. This is amazing research work and I know myself and many of our crews appreciate it. First to answer an earlier post I just saw now. Yes, this car is now at the Valley Railroad ( Essex Steam Train & Riverboat) in Essex, CT. I myself, am both a employee of the railroad as a Trainmen and as a volunteer with their non profit associated group, The Friends of the Valley Railroad. Our line acquired the car from Age of Steam Roundhouse along with two former Canadian National cars. While no plans have been announce, nor do I speak on behalf of the railroad company, the "Friends" have been working on it during our weekly shop night removing seats and the existing flooring for inspection of the steel under floor and start repairs. As of last night we have 3/4th of the flooring removed. (Many layers of tile, 3/4" plywood, insulation and 2x4s) We found a few areas were the steel floor underneath is damaged and/or corroding away above the south truck/bathroom area. I did take a moment to look around the car and was able to find some metal marked "1632" so with that and the above post from Tim Andrews, I think its safe to say we have identified the car's original number. I also removed some of the flaking "Ohio Central" maroon paint and saw a darker green, almost black. Not sure if that is the correct colors for southern green or if its just a undercoat. I can also confirm there are no Bathrooms on the car but that might help explain the thinner sheets of metal we found at the south end. Could be patches over previous holes. Also on the south end there are 2 cabinets that seem to need a key to open. Without trying to force it too much we could not open them. Another confirmation I can make is that the 6 wheel trucks have "Bethlehem" cast into the frames. However the wheels are roller bearing so I'm not sure if these were upgraded during one of the renovations. Regardless Thank you all again for the help and please let me know if you find anything else. The car seems like its going to be our pet project for the foreseeable future, so I can post updates here if any one is interested. While we are not sure what exactly the cars future hold, I'm hoping that this research can be used to help tell its story and help with restorations. |
|
|
|
George Eichelberger
One of the possible projects for upcoming work sessions will be to go through boxes of “miscellaneous” document and either move them to individual car files, or, at least to scan them and put the digital versions in the same “folder” as the car file (not many of those have been scanned. As Hayne maintained the Southern’s passenger cars, official cars and cabs, there are individual files on them in the archives. Box cars, also maintained at Hayne, do not have individual car files.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Other possible work session projects include: Reviewing, organizing and scanning the documentation, specifications and drawings (some very large) on all of the Southern’s lightweight passenger car orders from 1941. The SRHA photo collections: There are thousands of negative and prints in the archives. Some are very well organized but other are not. The various collections, while maintaining each item’s provenance, need to be collated and organized. Now the same engine number, for example, may have different photos in various collections and may be filed in different places depending on the size of the negative or if it is a print. While we may not want to rearrange the negatives or prints, once the items are scanned we can organize the digital files to manke anything easier to find. (That applies to anything; drawing, document or photo.) Note the SRHA archive includes many ACL, SAL, A&WP, GA, L&N etc. photos from the Roberts, Kimsey and Prince collections. The Kimsey collection contains hundreds of industrial and short line photos dating back to steam. The industrial and short line negatives warrant their own book! The archives will be open before noon on Thursday 6-17 through Saturday afternoon. If you are coming to help, please (!) send an email to archives@... so we can plan the various projects and work areas. We typically work until 7:00PM or so and will start by 8:00 on Friday and Saturday. TVRM is fully open. Ike On Jun 3, 2021, at 9:43 AM, C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...> wrote: Tim, thanks for finding the answer. Years ago when I was trying to create an all time roster of Southern Railway passenger cars, a similar renumbering incident, number 1367 in your list, bedeviled me. The original Southern 1367 was a coach built by Pullman in 1909. Therefore I refer to the excursion car as No. 1367 (2nd). Jack Wyatt
On Wednesday, June 2, 2021, 10:12:09 PM EDT, TIM ANDREWS <andrewstim@...> wrote:
From the SRHA archives today comes the following from the car maintenance record for car 3659 and dated 11/1/1966 <1622670693242blob.jpg> Using the diagram book from Another Man's Treasure we see that the car was originally 1632 which fits the series reported by Jack Wyatt. According to Diagram 30-F-38 the car was built by Bethlehem 1924 was air conditioned in May of 1939 had Green Frieze Pat. 60 upholstery, the "8-3 interior color scheme and the tile #101 and 107 aisle stripe". It weighted 149,600 pounds. From the diagram it had walk over seats and seated 72. Although the date is not given on diagram 31-F-51 dated 12/7/48 the car received reclining seats and reconfigured restrooms and was renumbered 1083. The seating was dropped to 48 seats. 26 cars received this conversion, some at Hayne and some at Chattanooga. Seeing as how the seating was raised to 72 reclining seats and the restrooms were removed, we would assume that took place around 1966. It is interesting to note that the 1058 on the list above is now at TVRM and still has the large restrooms and lower seating capacity. I will keep digging through stuff and see what else I can find. On Wednesday, June 2, 2021, 05:18:23 PM EDT, Stephen Warner <sgwarner88@...> wrote: Having rode these cars starting in 1960 all the way through the end of SR's scheduled service (on the Knoxville Division and CNO&TP), I can say that you have an "original" car interior, at least through the 1950's or so. I also rode many of these cars that SR "upgraded" from the globe lights and steel overhead racks with newer streamline/modernized-type racks and fluorescent lighting (harsh and glaring at night). I always felt that I was riding Southern back in the 30's in these cars (after all, it was still Timetable and train order operation back then), and tried to pick out one in the consist whenever I climbed on. She will look great.
|
|
|