locked Silversides lettering color


D. Scott Chatfield
 

What were the different colors used to letter the Silversides?  (The aluminum coal gons.)  I gather the colors had meanings, either for which power company they hauled coal for or which subsidiary they were assigned to.  Thanks.


Scott Chatfield


George Eichelberger
 

Scott:

For years, I have looked at stencil drawings, specifications and memos to find a “clue” to explain the different stencil colors on the Silversides, covered hoppers and the grey 70-ton triple hoppers with black lettering. I have always assumed there must (!) be a reason for the black, green, red, (and orange that was probably faded red?). So far, absolutely no luck whatsoever!

We can speculate about many reasons but does anyone have any “solid” information?

Ike


On Jul 1, 2020, at 7:02 PM, D. Scott Chatfield <blindog@...> wrote:

What were the different colors used to letter the Silversides?  (The aluminum coal gons.)  I gather the colors had meanings, either for which power company they hauled coal for or which subsidiary they were assigned to.  Thanks.


Scott Chatfield


Curt Fortenberry
 


I would add the Magor hoppers as well.  

Curt Fortenberry 


James
 

George,

You sparked my interest with the grey 70ton hoppers with black lettering.  Might you provide some pictures fo these?

On Jul 1, 2020, at 20:13, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:

Scott:

For years, I have looked at stencil drawings, specifications and memos to find a “clue” to explain the different stencil colors on the Silversides, covered hoppers and the grey 70-ton triple hoppers with black lettering. I have always assumed there must (!) be a reason for the black, green, red, (and orange that was probably faded red?). So far, absolutely no luck whatsoever!

We can speculate about many reasons but does anyone have any “solid” information?

Ike


James Wall
Rural Hall, NC




George Eichelberger
 

Because the covered hopper were first purchased for different commodities, I have always assumed that maybe the stencil colors on them were to show what they were supposed to carry. The problem with that theory is that stencil colors vary within the same car orders.

Ike



On Jul 1, 2020, at 8:24 PM, Curt Fortenberry <curtfortenberry@...> wrote:


I would add the Magor hoppers as well.  

Curt Fortenberry 


C J Wyatt
 

I always assumed that it was a search for a lettering color which would provide contrast on the TV screens in spite of any overcoating's of dust and grime.

Sorry to speculate, but after assuming this answer for the majority of my life, I am curious about the answer. 

Jack Wyatt

On Wednesday, July 1, 2020, 08:27:05 PM EDT, Curt Fortenberry <curtfortenberry@gmail.com> wrote:






I would add the Magor hoppers as well.  

Curt Fortenberry


George Eichelberger
 

Here are two. Only Sou 74505 is properly IDd. I took the photo at Andover, VA 10-2-87. Another photo, Sou 74285, may (!!) have faded green lettering

Ike




On Jul 1, 2020, at 8:36 PM, James <nsc39dash8@...> wrote:

George,

You sparked my interest with the grey 70ton hoppers with black lettering.  Might you provide some pictures fo these?

On Jul 1, 2020, at 20:13, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:

Scott:

For years, I have looked at stencil drawings, specifications and memos to find a “clue” to explain the different stencil colors on the Silversides, covered hoppers and the grey 70-ton triple hoppers with black lettering. I have always assumed there must (!) be a reason for the black, green, red, (and orange that was probably faded red?). So far, absolutely no luck whatsoever!

We can speculate about many reasons but does anyone have any “solid” information?

Ike


James Wall
Rural Hall, NC





mike turner
 

Given that the car vendors built (painted) exactly what SOU specified,
I would suggest a quick scan through the NCP folder for an order of
Silversides that had varying colors.

While it's not certain there will be a justification or reason in the
file, there is a pretty good chance some letter or note will give a
clue since something like that would normally pass through purchasing.


George Eichelberger
 

Mike:

I’ve scanned maybe 4,000 hopper, cov hopper and Silversides drawings and memos…..nothing!

I expect many of the Silversides stencil color changes occurred when the cars were modified with steel replacement parts.
Many of the covered hopper orders left the carbuilders with Roman lettering or were rebuilt (70 to 100T) and were repainted. I guarantee no 70T open hopper specs said “grey paint”.

One problem with lettering, stencil drawings always say the same thing…..lettering as per specifications….but the specs never seem to include anything about lettering colors.

Ike

On Jul 1, 2020, at 9:34 PM, mike turner <michaellturner@gmail.com> wrote:

Given that the car vendors built (painted) exactly what SOU specified,
I would suggest a quick scan through the NCP folder for an order of
Silversides that had varying colors.

While it's not certain there will be a justification or reason in the
file, there is a pretty good chance some letter or note will give a
clue since something like that would normally pass through purchasing.


Robert Graham
 

He probably is referring to one of these cars; SOU (C of  G) HT 74338 I shot at Linwood NC April 19 1986.

Bob Graham

-----------------------------------------

From: "James"
To: "main@southernrailway.groups.io"
Cc:
Sent: Wednesday July 1 2020 10:23:24PM
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Silversides lettering color

George,

You sparked my interest with the grey 70ton hoppers with black lettering.  Might you provide some pictures fo these?

On Jul 1, 2020, at 20:13, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:

Scott:

For years, I have looked at stencil drawings, specifications and memos to find a “clue” to explain the different stencil colors on the Silversides, covered hoppers and the grey 70-ton triple hoppers with black lettering. I have always assumed there must (!) be a reason for the black, green, red, (and orange that was probably faded red?). So far, absolutely no luck whatsoever!

We can speculate about many reasons but does anyone have any “solid” information?

Ike


James Wall
Rural Hall, NC




Bill Schafer
 

I have no idea why the gray 70 ton hoppers were painted that way, but I remember seeing them occasionally in Lamberts Point mixed in with black N&W hoppers in the 1980s. 

As for the Silversides, I’m like Jack Wyatt - I too am curious about the real answer. My impression over the years, which may be just wild speculation, is that Mr. Brosnan did everything he could to get rid of the color green on the Southern . Diesels traded green for black in 1958. The first airplane - N153SR, nicknamed the Southwind, was painted red and white with gold stripes when delivered around 1963. The Agribusiness bus was painted red and silver. And the Silversides, Big Johns, etc., were lettered with red-orange characters. All during Brosnan’s watch as either executive VP-operations or president. Once Mr. Claytor became president, the red on the plane got replaced by green; ditto (I think, IIRC) for the Agribusiness bus before it was retired. And it was during Claytor’s administration that I noticed the Silversides and Big Johns getting green characters instead of red-orange, so I just chalked it up to a trend to return to green, culminating with the E8s in 1972. 

If there is a more technical explanation, I’d be delighted to hear of it. 

—Bill

On Jul 1, 2020, at 22:54, Robert Graham <rgraham2@...> wrote:

He probably is referring to one of these cars; SOU (C of  G) HT 74338 I shot at Linwood NC April 19 1986.

Bob Graham

-----------------------------------------

From: "James"
To: "main@southernrailway.groups.io"
Cc:
Sent: Wednesday July 1 2020 10:23:24PM
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Silversides lettering color

George,

You sparked my interest with the grey 70ton hoppers with black lettering.  Might you provide some pictures fo these?

On Jul 1, 2020, at 20:13, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:

Scott:

For years, I have looked at stencil drawings, specifications and memos to find a “clue” to explain the different stencil colors on the Silversides, covered hoppers and the grey 70-ton triple hoppers with black lettering. I have always assumed there must (!) be a reason for the black, green, red, (and orange that was probably faded red?). So far, absolutely no luck whatsoever!

We can speculate about many reasons but does anyone have any “solid” information?

Ike


James Wall
Rural Hall, NC



<SOU ht 74338  BobG  035.jpg>


Dick Fisher
 

I agree. I always thought the color was whatever was standard at the time they were painted..

Dick

On 7/2/2020 8:54 AM, Bill Schafer wrote:
I have no idea why the gray 70 ton hoppers were painted that way, but I remember seeing them occasionally in Lamberts Point mixed in with black N&W hoppers in the 1980s. 

As for the Silversides, I’m like Jack Wyatt - I too am curious about the real answer. My impression over the years, which may be just wild speculation, is that Mr. Brosnan did everything he could to get rid of the color green on the Southern . Diesels traded green for black in 1958. The first airplane - N153SR, nicknamed the Southwind, was painted red and white with gold stripes when delivered around 1963. The Agribusiness bus was painted red and silver. And the Silversides, Big Johns, etc., were lettered with red-orange characters. All during Brosnan’s watch as either executive VP-operations or president. Once Mr. Claytor became president, the red on the plane got replaced by green; ditto (I think, IIRC) for the Agribusiness bus before it was retired. And it was during Claytor’s administration that I noticed the Silversides and Big Johns getting green characters instead of red-orange, so I just chalked it up to a trend to return to green, culminating with the E8s in 1972. 

If there is a more technical explanation, I’d be delighted to hear of it. 

—Bill

On Jul 1, 2020, at 22:54, Robert Graham <rgraham2@...> wrote:

He probably is referring to one of these cars; SOU (C of  G) HT 74338 I shot at Linwood NC April 19 1986.

Bob Graham

-----------------------------------------

From: "James"
To: "main@southernrailway.groups.io"
Cc:
Sent: Wednesday July 1 2020 10:23:24PM
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Silversides lettering color

George,

You sparked my interest with the grey 70ton hoppers with black lettering.  Might you provide some pictures fo these?

On Jul 1, 2020, at 20:13, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:

Scott:

For years, I have looked at stencil drawings, specifications and memos to find a “clue” to explain the different stencil colors on the Silversides, covered hoppers and the grey 70-ton triple hoppers with black lettering. I have always assumed there must (!) be a reason for the black, green, red, (and orange that was probably faded red?). So far, absolutely no luck whatsoever!

We can speculate about many reasons but does anyone have any “solid” information?

Ike


James Wall
Rural Hall, NC



<SOU ht 74338  BobG  035.jpg>


Virus-free. www.avg.com


George Eichelberger
 

Here is a list of color Silversides photos I took over the years. If there is a “pattern” in them, it is that Silversides were delivered with Red lettering in 1960. Green lettering on (1973?) modified cars.

1022 at B’ham 2-8-84, blt 2-60, reinforced for rotary dump svc (probably) 5-73 at Knoxville - green lettering
1067 at Asheville 7-22-89. original blt date is not readable, lettering is red, in poor condition and looks to be original
1106 at B’ham, Norris Yd. 4-6-86 car reweighed, dim data restenciled, lettering is red, blt 2-60
1125 at Asheville 10-23-73, car modified and re-stenciled green, blt 2-60
1181 at B’ham 2-8-84, modified lettering, green lettering (looks original incl ACI label) blt 2-60
1265 at Asheville 7-22-89, not modified, red lettering (poor condition, looks original w/ACI label), dim data had been changed new inspection label recently added. blt 2-60
1351 at B’ham, unmodified, red lettering in poor condition, looks original w/ACI label, new inspection stencil recently added, blt 3-60
Note first “!” in car’s road number on side is completely obliterated, reads “351”
1363 at B’ham 10-1-82, car not modified, red lettering in poor condition, looks original w/ACI label, new inspection stencil recently added, blt 3-60
1375 at B’ham 4-6-86, car not modified, red lettering in poor condition, looks original w/ACI label, new inspection stencil recently added, dim data re-stenciled 3-86, blt 3-60
1377 at B’ham, car modified (4-79?), (dark) green lettering, blt 3-60
1430 at B’ham 2-8-84, car not modified, red lettering in poor condition, looks original w/ACI label, new inspection stencil recently added, blt 3-60
1539 at Asheville 10-23-73, modified 5-73, dark green or black lettering, blt 3-60
1656 at Birmingham 9-30-82, not modified, red lettering looks original, blt 3-60
1685 at B’ham 10-1-82, not modified, red lettering looks original, blt 4-60
1709 at Howells in Atlanta 10-28-83, not modified, red lettering, blt 3-60 (Note: car is not in unit train)

I have many more color photos of covered hoppers. Most are black or green lettering except Big Johns are either green or red. Nothing else in red may indicate that was not a “standard” color?

Ike


Dick Fisher
 

They were all built on one order in 1960 before the NCP file system.

Dick

On 7/1/2020 9:34 PM, mike turner wrote:
Given that the car vendors built (painted) exactly what SOU specified,
I would suggest a quick scan through the NCP folder for an order of
Silversides that had varying colors.

While it's not certain there will be a justification or reason in the
file, there is a pretty good chance some letter or note will give a
clue since something like that would normally pass through purchasing.


George Eichelberger
 

Before the New Car Program (NCP) system, the Southern issued “Specifications” for new rolling stock. The Southern Freight Car Diagram book (published by SRHA) shows “100-Ton 47’-8” Aluminum Gondola Series 1000-1749” incorrectly as “Program F-145”. That is an easy error to make because both the Specifications AND the drawing card list (index) used an “F-“ prefix. (Only a few copies are still available in the Grab.)

The “Silversides” were built under Specification F-188 (issued April 8, 1959) with Card List F-145. That is correct except that at some point in discussions with the carbuilders, P-S was eventually selected, the basic design of the cars changed from all-steel to aluminum body cars. With that change, the “Painting” section of the spec. became obsolete. (As issued, Specification F-188, pages 4 and 7 are attached.) (Spec 125 paint was Southern Freight Car Brown, never used on a Silversides.)

Changes between specs and as-delivered was not uncommon. The Southern spec documentation almost always included the invitation for carbuilders to propose alternate materials, designs or specialties. The format of F-188 is slightly different from the standard Southern form. That suggests the published spec was written, probably by P-S, and submitted to the railroad in response to an “RFI” or as an unsolicited proposal. At some point in the process, Alcoa Aluminum Co. entered the picture and the design changed. (Silversides were covered in a TIES article long ago. Maybe someone can tell us which issue.)

As was typical after the wood and steel underframe era, Southern stencil drawings did not specify paint or stencil colors. SF-21023 for the Silversides is attached.

Most of the Southern freight and passenger car “F” and “P" specifications beginning with the wood and steel underframe cars are in the SRHA archives and have been scanned. Freight car drawing lists have been scanned, passenger car drawing indexes are in progress. New Car Program files are being organized and scanned as time permits. If there is any interest, they could be published individually or as sets.

Ike






On Jul 2, 2020, at 10:37 PM, Dick Fisher <Gladhand1@...> wrote:

They were all built on one order in 1960 before the NCP file system.

Dick

On 7/1/2020 9:34 PM, mike turner wrote:
Given that the car vendors built (painted) exactly what SOU specified,
I would suggest a quick scan through the NCP folder for an order of
Silversides that had varying colors.

While it's not certain there will be a justification or reason in the
file, there is a pretty good chance some letter or note will give a
clue since something like that would normally pass through purchasing.