locked Southern Passenger Train Consist Similarities


David Friedlander
 

All,
 
So maybe this isn't the right list serve for this topic, but I'll start here as its mostly historical in nature (with an admitted purpose to create factory models).

TLDR - Looking for some answers and advice on an approach for an O-Scale company to make three SOU named passenger trains at the same time, that has thought about minimizing tooling costs and has a good chance of meeting minimum production quantities.

More:
In O-Scale, there is generally two camps of people when it comes to Southern passenger trains.  There is a following for those who want a RTR Tennessean (behind streamlined steam or these E6's), and a RTR Southern Crescent (late 60's/early 70's - pre-black roofs behind Southern Crescent E8's).   There may be a good fit to try to do the Southerner as well as I have a feeling much of the consist of that train is similar to the Tennessean.  The ultimate goal here is to try to reuse-tooling across all three named trains with no or minor changes (deskirting, covering flutes, etc.) and as few different car types as possible to reduce complexity, yet provide a good feel for the train. I admit I think there is far more overlap between the Southerner and the Tennessean than the Southern Crescent, but the Southern Crescent is also an extremely popular train too for obvious historical reasons.
 
I usually independently research, but this topic delves into things I don't feel I know a lot about and would really appreciate third-party opinions. I still need to sit down and read deeper into a few of my books (I have the floor plan books for the Passenger Car Library (ACF/Budd), the Pullman-Standard Library, the SOU handbook, SOU color freight guide, SOU varnish book, and SOU passenger trains in service, along with most other SOU books) along with some online resources (such as https://condrenrails.com/MRP/Tennessean/Tennessean-equipment.htm) and figure out a good "set" of cars for each train...but figured I'd start here in case someone can answer some initial questions and has a suggestion on where I can spend most of my time researching.
 
The end goal? With such a small group of Southern modelers in O Scale, I'm looking to make a case for 3rd Rail/Sunset Models (I'm soliciting them, not the other way around.) to possibly offer these named trains all at the same time in order to meet the minimum quantity necessary to make it feasible to produce these trains in O Scale.  Yes, Lionel recently came out with 21" plastic cars, but they were based on the NYC Empire State Express (big surprise there.). While not a Rapido (really wish they did some O), 3rd Rail has proven it can do an amazing job on passenger cars. See the SAL Meteor at the bottom of this page.
 
Marketing in O-Scale/O-Gauge has traditionally fallen into 6-car or 8-car sets along with some extra add-on coaches or sleepers, etc.  The car quantity for a "set" is probably due to size-constraints for a layout in O-scale. With that said, I'm looking for opinions on what 6-8 cars plus add-ons for each train to get the full "flavor" of each.  My initial thought is to try reduce tooling cost and reuse across all three trains as much as possible, even if the later-era cars require some slight modifications, like skirt removal, or panels over the flutes. I'm thinking one could reuse the Tennessean tooling for later era-cars, say Corinth (de-skirt and add plating over the flutes), 48-seat dining cars (just de-skirt them?), and possibly the 56-seat chair cars (de-skirt, but I think these were retired early on). I know the Crescent would need several 10-6 sleepers, 52s coaches, maybe a coach-lounge, and not sure what else to make it feel right, especially at a 6 to 8 car train. I can't seem to find my spreadsheet that had a bunch of crescent consists all listed out.  To attract other modelers and meet the minimum production quantity, the add-on cars could also be painted in other railroad paint schemes if the car plan was shared with other roads (Some were for L&N, AWP, FEC, WofA, and I would need to identify that where possible). I am also thinking the later Crescent cars can appeal to Amtrak modelers of the Rainbow era, which would also help meet the minimum production quantity if they purchased add-on cars or even the Crescent set.

Additional questions I know I lack answers to:
1. I don't know a whole lot about the Southerner consist except for the fact it had the Louisiana OBS.  Does someone have an idea where I could look to see the train's make up? I seem to remember there was a list somewhere where the specific car assignments for the consists were shown for the Tennessean, Southerner, and Royal Palm. ( My list below may need altering because I'm not sure what cars ran in what trainset. )
2. Regarding coaches, any idea if any 56s coaches from the Tennessean could be reused on the 60's/70's Crescent? I read that at least one of them may have been donated sometime in the mid 60's, so they may only work on the earlier trains.
3. I'm also noticing trucks varied in what looks like two main truck variants.  Does anyone have a good resource for that? Hopefully none were replaced over time.

I've yet to produce a spreadsheet to keep track of variations, etc, but after about 3 hours of looking around books and drafting this email, here are my initial passenger train suggestions below.
 
As-delivered Tennessean (6-8 cars):
-1700 Corinth (60Ft RPO)
-1725 Lenoir City(30Ft RPO)**If 8-cars
-1751 Greeneville (Bag-Mail)
-706 Bedford (Bag-Dorm-Coach)**If 8-cars
-810 Bristol (56-seat chair Car)
-3304 Alexandria (48-seat dining car)
-814 Roanoke (56-seat Chair Car)
-1150 Washington (Tav-Lng OBS)
 
Add-on:
-1701 Grand Junction (60Ft RPO)
-1726 Athens (30Ft RPO)**If 8-cars (Can also be de-skirted and have flutes covered for later-era car)
-1750 Decatur (Bag-Mail)
-704 Johnson City (Bag-Dorm-Coach)**If 8-cars (Can also be offered de-skirted for later-era car)
-808 Sheffield (56-seat Chair Car)
-811 Sweetwater (56-seat Chair Car)
-812 Charlottesville (56-seat Chair Car)
-813 Lynchburg (56-seat Chair Car)



(As-Delivered?) Southerner (6-8 cars):
-(What was used on this train? Is it basically the same train as the Tennessean, but with different OBS and different car names otherwise?)
-
-
-
-
-
-1101 Louisana (OBS)
 
Add-on:
-
-



late 1960's Crescent /early 1970's Southern Crescent (8-cars):
-1700 Corinth (60FT Bag-Mail, with plating over flutes)
-1751 Greeneville (Bag-Mail, with plating over lower flutes)
-2010 Rapidan River (10-6 sleeper)
-2014 Shenandoa River (10-6 sleeper)
-3304 Alexandria (48-seat dining car; de-skirted) (Did this run on the Crescent or should it be a Budd diner?)
-951 (Coach-Lounge)
-822 (52s Coach)
-824 (52s Coach)
 
 
Add-on:
-2017 Tiger River (10-6 sleeper)
-2022 York River (10-6 sleeper)
-817 (52s Coach)
-830 (52s Coach)
-Maybe more 10-6 and 52s coaches if demand is there or other railroads fit onto the the same car plan
 
I am appreciative to anyone who has a thought on the subject.  Definitely deeper research needed on my end, but hopefully someone can help answer my initial questions and advice on what cars should be included.
 
David Friedlander
NYC or Columbia, MD


Jason Greene
 

Just my thoughts:

Using your list here-

late 1960's Crescent /early 1970's Southern Crescent (8-cars):
-1700 Corinth (60FT Bag-Mail, with plating over flutes)
-1751 Greeneville (Bag-Mail, with plating over lower flutes)
-2010 Rapidan River (10-6 sleeper)
-2014 Shenandoa River (10-6 sleeper)
-3304 Alexandria (48-seat dining car; de-skirted) (Did this run on the Crescent or should it be a Budd diner?)
-951 (Coach-Lounge)
-822 (52s Coach)
-824 (52s Coach)


Add-on:
-2017 Tiger River (10-6 sleeper)
-2022 York River (10-6 sleeper)
-817 (52s Coach)
-830 (52s Coach)
-Maybe more 10-6 and 52s coaches if demand is there or other railroads fit onto the the same car plan

Add on the 11 bedroom sleepers that were common. Do some of your 10-6 sleepers in the other roads like L&N or FEC. Maybe an add-on AWP diner or sleeper. I believe the PRR has some 10-6 sleepers of the same floor plan without fluting.

You take all these and you now have a good Royal Palm and maybe a Peach Queen or Piedmont.

Jason Greene

On Jun 27, 2020, at 9:42 PM, David Friedlander <davidjfriedlander@gmail.com> wrote:

late 1960's Crescent /early 1970's Southern Crescent (8-cars):
-1700 Corinth (60FT Bag-Mail, with plating over flutes)
-1751 Greeneville (Bag-Mail, with plating over lower flutes)
-2010 Rapidan River (10-6 sleeper)
-2014 Shenandoa River (10-6 sleeper)
-3304 Alexandria (48-seat dining car; de-skirted) (Did this run on the Crescent or should it be a Budd diner?)
-951 (Coach-Lounge)
-822 (52s Coach)
-824 (52s Coach)


Add-on:
-2017 Tiger River (10-6 sleeper)
-2022 York River (10-6 sleeper)
-817 (52s Coach)
-830 (52s Coach)
-Maybe more 10-6 and 52s coaches if demand is there or other railroads fit onto the the same car plan


Robert Hanson
 

In the 1960's and 1970's the coaches generally ran ahead of the diner and the sleepers were placed behind it on almost all passenger trains. There were exceptions, but that was the general practice.

For reasons unknown Amtrak reversed the order some time in the 1980's or 1990's.

Bob Hanson
Loganville, GA


-----Original Message-----
From: Jason Greene <jason.p.greene@...>
To: main@southernrailway.groups.io
Sent: Sun, Jun 28, 2020 1:22 am
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Southern Passenger Train Consist Similarities

Just my thoughts:

Using your list here-

late 1960's Crescent /early 1970's Southern Crescent (8-cars):
-1700 Corinth (60FT Bag-Mail, with plating over flutes)
-1751 Greeneville (Bag-Mail, with plating over lower flutes)
-2010 Rapidan River (10-6 sleeper)
-2014 Shenandoa River (10-6 sleeper)
-3304 Alexandria (48-seat dining car; de-skirted) (Did this run on the Crescent or should it be a Budd diner?)
-951 (Coach-Lounge)
-822 (52s Coach)
-824 (52s Coach)


Add-on:
-2017 Tiger River (10-6 sleeper)
-2022 York River (10-6 sleeper)
-817 (52s Coach)
-830 (52s Coach)
-Maybe more 10-6 and 52s coaches if demand is there or other railroads fit onto the the same car plan

Add on the 11 bedroom sleepers that were common. Do some of your 10-6 sleepers in the other roads like L&N or FEC. Maybe an add-on AWP diner or sleeper. I believe the PRR has some 10-6 sleepers of the same floor plan without fluting.

You take all these and you now have a good Royal Palm and maybe a Peach Queen or Piedmont.

Jason Greene

> On Jun 27, 2020, at 9:42 PM, David Friedlander <davidjfriedlander@...> wrote:
>
> late 1960's Crescent /early 1970's Southern Crescent (8-cars):
> -1700 Corinth (60FT Bag-Mail, with plating over flutes)
> -1751 Greeneville (Bag-Mail, with plating over lower flutes)
> -2010 Rapidan River (10-6 sleeper)
> -2014 Shenandoa River (10-6 sleeper)
> -3304 Alexandria (48-seat dining car; de-skirted) (Did this run on the Crescent or should it be a Budd diner?)
> -951 (Coach-Lounge)
> -822 (52s Coach)
> -824 (52s Coach)
>
>
> Add-on:
> -2017 Tiger River (10-6 sleeper)
> -2022 York River (10-6 sleeper)
> -817 (52s Coach)
> -830 (52s Coach)
> -Maybe more 10-6 and 52s coaches if demand is there or other railroads fit onto the the same car plan



David Friedlander
 

Jason,

Interesting thought.  What would a typical train look like for the royal palm, peach queen, or piedmont, in roughly the same time frame or slightly earlier? I'm far less familiar with those trains.

David

On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 1:22 AM Jason Greene <jason.p.greene@...> wrote:
Just my thoughts:

Using your list here-

late 1960's Crescent /early 1970's Southern Crescent (8-cars):
-1700 Corinth (60FT Bag-Mail, with plating over flutes)
-1751 Greeneville (Bag-Mail, with plating over lower flutes)
-2010 Rapidan River (10-6 sleeper)
-2014 Shenandoa River (10-6 sleeper)
-3304 Alexandria (48-seat dining car; de-skirted) (Did this run on the Crescent or should it be a Budd diner?)
-951 (Coach-Lounge)
-822 (52s Coach)
-824 (52s Coach)


Add-on:
-2017 Tiger River (10-6 sleeper)
-2022 York River (10-6 sleeper)
-817 (52s Coach)
-830 (52s Coach)
-Maybe more 10-6 and 52s coaches if demand is there or other railroads fit onto the the same car plan

Add on the 11 bedroom sleepers that were common. Do some of your 10-6 sleepers in the other roads like L&N or FEC. Maybe an add-on AWP diner or sleeper. I believe the PRR has some 10-6 sleepers of the same floor plan without fluting.

You take all these and you now have a good Royal Palm and maybe a Peach Queen or Piedmont.

Jason Greene

> On Jun 27, 2020, at 9:42 PM, David Friedlander <davidjfriedlander@...> wrote:
>
> late 1960's Crescent /early 1970's Southern Crescent (8-cars):
> -1700 Corinth (60FT Bag-Mail, with plating over flutes)
> -1751 Greeneville (Bag-Mail, with plating over lower flutes)
> -2010 Rapidan River (10-6 sleeper)
> -2014 Shenandoa River (10-6 sleeper)
> -3304 Alexandria (48-seat dining car; de-skirted) (Did this run on the Crescent or should it be a Budd diner?)
> -951 (Coach-Lounge)
> -822 (52s Coach)
> -824 (52s Coach)


> Add-on:
> -2017 Tiger River (10-6 sleeper)
> -2022 York River (10-6 sleeper)
> -817 (52s Coach)
> -830 (52s Coach)
> -Maybe more 10-6 and 52s coaches if demand is there or other railroads fit onto the the same car plan




David Friedlander
 

Bob,

Thanks for the ordering thoughts.  I just based that off the late 70's consist post I just on here from this weekend. I'll reorder once I can make a final determination of what cars need to be offered to give the train the proper feel.  Looks like maybe I should replace the coach-lounge with an 11-DBR instead.

David

On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 9:23 AM Robert Hanson via groups.io <RHanson669=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
In the 1960's and 1970's the coaches generally ran ahead of the diner and the sleepers were placed behind it on almost all passenger trains. There were exceptions, but that was the general practice.

For reasons unknown Amtrak reversed the order some time in the 1980's or 1990's.

Bob Hanson
Loganville, GA


-----Original Message-----
From: Jason Greene <jason.p.greene@...>
To: main@southernrailway.groups.io
Sent: Sun, Jun 28, 2020 1:22 am
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Southern Passenger Train Consist Similarities

Just my thoughts:

Using your list here-

late 1960's Crescent /early 1970's Southern Crescent (8-cars):
-1700 Corinth (60FT Bag-Mail, with plating over flutes)
-1751 Greeneville (Bag-Mail, with plating over lower flutes)
-2010 Rapidan River (10-6 sleeper)
-2014 Shenandoa River (10-6 sleeper)
-3304 Alexandria (48-seat dining car; de-skirted) (Did this run on the Crescent or should it be a Budd diner?)
-951 (Coach-Lounge)
-822 (52s Coach)
-824 (52s Coach)


Add-on:
-2017 Tiger River (10-6 sleeper)
-2022 York River (10-6 sleeper)
-817 (52s Coach)
-830 (52s Coach)
-Maybe more 10-6 and 52s coaches if demand is there or other railroads fit onto the the same car plan

Add on the 11 bedroom sleepers that were common. Do some of your 10-6 sleepers in the other roads like L&N or FEC. Maybe an add-on AWP diner or sleeper. I believe the PRR has some 10-6 sleepers of the same floor plan without fluting.

You take all these and you now have a good Royal Palm and maybe a Peach Queen or Piedmont.

Jason Greene

> On Jun 27, 2020, at 9:42 PM, David Friedlander <davidjfriedlander@...> wrote:
>
> late 1960's Crescent /early 1970's Southern Crescent (8-cars):
> -1700 Corinth (60FT Bag-Mail, with plating over flutes)
> -1751 Greeneville (Bag-Mail, with plating over lower flutes)
> -2010 Rapidan River (10-6 sleeper)
> -2014 Shenandoa River (10-6 sleeper)
> -3304 Alexandria (48-seat dining car; de-skirted) (Did this run on the Crescent or should it be a Budd diner?)
> -951 (Coach-Lounge)
> -822 (52s Coach)
> -824 (52s Coach)
>
>
> Add-on:
> -2017 Tiger River (10-6 sleeper)
> -2022 York River (10-6 sleeper)
> -817 (52s Coach)
> -830 (52s Coach)
> -Maybe more 10-6 and 52s coaches if demand is there or other railroads fit onto the the same car plan



Michael Young
 

From my time with the Charleston Chapter in the mid-1970s, I remember finding the mechanical record card in the electrical cabinet of the heavyweight Pullman "Bizet" and the last few entries indicated that it saw its last regular service on the Royal Palm in the mid to late 1960s. I believe it was an all double bedroom floor plan, but had been used for coach seating. "Coach" had been stenciled under "Bizet" on the end doors.
Mike Young


-----Original Message-----
From: David Friedlander <davidjfriedlander@...>
To: main@southernrailway.groups.io
Sent: Sun, Jun 28, 2020 1:30 pm
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Southern Passenger Train Consist Similarities

Jason,

Interesting thought.  What would a typical train look like for the royal palm, peach queen, or piedmont, in roughly the same time frame or slightly earlier? I'm far less familiar with those trains.

David

On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 1:22 AM Jason Greene <jason.p.greene@...> wrote:
Just my thoughts:

Using your list here-

late 1960's Crescent /early 1970's Southern Crescent (8-cars):
-1700 Corinth (60FT Bag-Mail, with plating over flutes)
-1751 Greeneville (Bag-Mail, with plating over lower flutes)
-2010 Rapidan River (10-6 sleeper)
-2014 Shenandoa River (10-6 sleeper)
-3304 Alexandria (48-seat dining car; de-skirted) (Did this run on the Crescent or should it be a Budd diner?)
-951 (Coach-Lounge)
-822 (52s Coach)
-824 (52s Coach)


Add-on:
-2017 Tiger River (10-6 sleeper)
-2022 York River (10-6 sleeper)
-817 (52s Coach)
-830 (52s Coach)
-Maybe more 10-6 and 52s coaches if demand is there or other railroads fit onto the the same car plan

Add on the 11 bedroom sleepers that were common. Do some of your 10-6 sleepers in the other roads like L&N or FEC. Maybe an add-on AWP diner or sleeper. I believe the PRR has some 10-6 sleepers of the same floor plan without fluting.

You take all these and you now have a good Royal Palm and maybe a Peach Queen or Piedmont.

Jason Greene

> On Jun 27, 2020, at 9:42 PM, David Friedlander <davidjfriedlander@...> wrote:
>
> late 1960's Crescent /early 1970's Southern Crescent (8-cars):
> -1700 Corinth (60FT Bag-Mail, with plating over flutes)
> -1751 Greeneville (Bag-Mail, with plating over lower flutes)
> -2010 Rapidan River (10-6 sleeper)
> -2014 Shenandoa River (10-6 sleeper)
> -3304 Alexandria (48-seat dining car; de-skirted) (Did this run on the Crescent or should it be a Budd diner?)
> -951 (Coach-Lounge)
> -822 (52s Coach)
> -824 (52s Coach)


> Add-on:
> -2017 Tiger River (10-6 sleeper)
> -2022 York River (10-6 sleeper)
> -817 (52s Coach)
> -830 (52s Coach)
> -Maybe more 10-6 and 52s coaches if demand is there or other railroads fit onto the the same car plan




Bill Schafer
 

Initial comments:

The prewar Southerner would not have run with any full baggage or mail cars. Its original consist just had a combination baggage-dorm-coach ahead of the Jim Crow coach, then two full coaches, dining car, another coach, then observation car - seven cars. I think (without digging) the train ran with an extra coach north of Atlanta.


The Southern Crescent would not have run regularly with a coach-lounge but would have always run with a Crescent-series master room-2 drawing room-tavern lounge. 

The prewar Pullman-Standard dining cars (e.g., Alexandria) were out of service by the time the Southern Crescent began operating circa 1969. Budd dining cars were used exclusively. Ditto for the prewar 56-seat coaches.

Don’t forget there is an “h” at the end of “Shenandoah”

The Southern Crescent was never advertised with an 11-double bedroom sleeper in its consist. Those cars ran to accommodate overflow bedroom passengers (often pass holders) or special groups. 

When it ran in the off season, the Southern Crescent was only 8 or 9 cars long anyway and would fit into your maximum length, but it also ran with four E8s, regardless of length. If the train ran in two sections, it had two E8s on the short section and three E8s on the long section.

I rode the Southern Crescent on business probably 100 times, and wrote down the consist almost every time, so if you want some typical consists, I can send you some. The cars were not always arranged like you’d expect them to be. Below is a Jim McClellan shot of the Southern Crescent with a minimal consist. Behind the four E8s is: baggage-dorm-coach, 52-seat coach, sleeper-tavern lounge, Budd 48-seat dining car, two more 52-seat coaches, and two 10-6 sleepers. There may also have been a 52-seat coach behind the sleepers for short-haul passengers. Jim shot this picture from the vestibule of the second sleeper northbound somewhere between Manassas and Alexandria. 


—Bill

On Jun 28, 2020, at 09:23, Robert Hanson via groups.io <RHanson669@...> wrote:

In the 1960's and 1970's the coaches generally ran ahead of the diner and the sleepers were placed behind it on almost all passenger trains. There were exceptions, but that was the general practice.

For reasons unknown Amtrak reversed the order some time in the 1980's or 1990's.

Bob Hanson
Loganville, GA


-----Original Message-----
From: Jason Greene <jason.p.greene@...>
To: main@southernrailway.groups.io
Sent: Sun, Jun 28, 2020 1:22 am
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Southern Passenger Train Consist Similarities

Just my thoughts:

Using your list here-

late 1960's Crescent /early 1970's Southern Crescent (8-cars):
-1700 Corinth (60FT Bag-Mail, with plating over flutes)
-1751 Greeneville (Bag-Mail, with plating over lower flutes)
-2010 Rapidan River (10-6 sleeper)
-2014 Shenandoa River (10-6 sleeper)
-3304 Alexandria (48-seat dining car; de-skirted) (Did this run on the Crescent or should it be a Budd diner?)
-951 (Coach-Lounge)
-822 (52s Coach)
-824 (52s Coach)


Add-on:
-2017 Tiger River (10-6 sleeper)
-2022 York River (10-6 sleeper)
-817 (52s Coach)
-830 (52s Coach)
-Maybe more 10-6 and 52s coaches if demand is there or other railroads fit onto the the same car plan

Add on the 11 bedroom sleepers that were common. Do some of your 10-6 sleepers in the other roads like L&N or FEC. Maybe an add-on AWP diner or sleeper. I believe the PRR has some 10-6 sleepers of the same floor plan without fluting.

You take all these and you now have a good Royal Palm and maybe a Peach Queen or Piedmont.

Jason Greene

> On Jun 27, 2020, at 9:42 PM, David Friedlander <davidjfriedlander@...> wrote:
>
> late 1960's Crescent /early 1970's Southern Crescent (8-cars):
> -1700 Corinth (60FT Bag-Mail, with plating over flutes)
> -1751 Greeneville (Bag-Mail, with plating over lower flutes)
> -2010 Rapidan River (10-6 sleeper)
> -2014 Shenandoa River (10-6 sleeper)
> -3304 Alexandria (48-seat dining car; de-skirted) (Did this run on the Crescent or should it be a Budd diner?)
> -951 (Coach-Lounge)
> -822 (52s Coach)
> -824 (52s Coach)
>
>
> Add-on:
> -2017 Tiger River (10-6 sleeper)
> -2022 York River (10-6 sleeper)
> -817 (52s Coach)
> -830 (52s Coach)
> -Maybe more 10-6 and 52s coaches if demand is there or other railroads fit onto the the same car plan




Robert Hanson
 

That consist you describe, Bill, sounds almost like a "make-up" train assembled in a hurry after it was learned that the connecting train would be very, very late.

Bob Hanson


-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Schafer <bill4501@...>
To: main@southernrailway.groups.io <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io>
Sent: Sun, Jun 28, 2020 2:25 pm
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Southern Passenger Train Consist Similarities

Initial comments:

The prewar Southerner would not have run with any full baggage or mail cars. Its original consist just had a combination baggage-dorm-coach ahead of the Jim Crow coach, then two full coaches, dining car, another coach, then observation car - seven cars. I think (without digging) the train ran with an extra coach north of Atlanta.


The Southern Crescent would not have run regularly with a coach-lounge but would have always run with a Crescent-series master room-2 drawing room-tavern lounge. 

The prewar Pullman-Standard dining cars (e.g., Alexandria) were out of service by the time the Southern Crescent began operating circa 1969. Budd dining cars were used exclusively. Ditto for the prewar 56-seat coaches.

Don’t forget there is an “h” at the end of “Shenandoah”

The Southern Crescent was never advertised with an 11-double bedroom sleeper in its consist. Those cars ran to accommodate overflow bedroom passengers (often pass holders) or special groups. 

When it ran in the off season, the Southern Crescent was only 8 or 9 cars long anyway and would fit into your maximum length, but it also ran with four E8s, regardless of length. If the train ran in two sections, it had two E8s on the short section and three E8s on the long section.

I rode the Southern Crescent on business probably 100 times, and wrote down the consist almost every time, so if you want some typical consists, I can send you some. The cars were not always arranged like you’d expect them to be. Below is a Jim McClellan shot of the Southern Crescent with a minimal consist. Behind the four E8s is: baggage-dorm-coach, 52-seat coach, sleeper-tavern lounge, Budd 48-seat dining car, two more 52-seat coaches, and two 10-6 sleepers. There may also have been a 52-seat coach behind the sleepers for short-haul passengers. Jim shot this picture from the vestibule of the second sleeper northbound somewhere between Manassas and Alexandria. 


—Bill

On Jun 28, 2020, at 09:23, Robert Hanson via groups.io <RHanson669@...> wrote:

In the 1960's and 1970's the coaches generally ran ahead of the diner and the sleepers were placed behind it on almost all passenger trains. There were exceptions, but that was the general practice.

For reasons unknown Amtrak reversed the order some time in the 1980's or 1990's.

Bob Hanson
Loganville, GA


-----Original Message-----
From: Jason Greene <jason.p.greene@...>
To: main@southernrailway.groups.io
Sent: Sun, Jun 28, 2020 1:22 am
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Southern Passenger Train Consist Similarities

Just my thoughts:

Using your list here-

late 1960's Crescent /early 1970's Southern Crescent (8-cars):
-1700 Corinth (60FT Bag-Mail, with plating over flutes)
-1751 Greeneville (Bag-Mail, with plating over lower flutes)
-2010 Rapidan River (10-6 sleeper)
-2014 Shenandoa River (10-6 sleeper)
-3304 Alexandria (48-seat dining car; de-skirted) (Did this run on the Crescent or should it be a Budd diner?)
-951 (Coach-Lounge)
-822 (52s Coach)
-824 (52s Coach)


Add-on:
-2017 Tiger River (10-6 sleeper)
-2022 York River (10-6 sleeper)
-817 (52s Coach)
-830 (52s Coach)
-Maybe more 10-6 and 52s coaches if demand is there or other railroads fit onto the the same car plan

Add on the 11 bedroom sleepers that were common. Do some of your 10-6 sleepers in the other roads like L&N or FEC. Maybe an add-on AWP diner or sleeper. I believe the PRR has some 10-6 sleepers of the same floor plan without fluting.

You take all these and you now have a good Royal Palm and maybe a Peach Queen or Piedmont.

Jason Greene

> On Jun 27, 2020, at 9:42 PM, David Friedlander <davidjfriedlander@...> wrote:
>
> late 1960's Crescent /early 1970's Southern Crescent (8-cars):
> -1700 Corinth (60FT Bag-Mail, with plating over flutes)
> -1751 Greeneville (Bag-Mail, with plating over lower flutes)
> -2010 Rapidan River (10-6 sleeper)
> -2014 Shenandoa River (10-6 sleeper)
> -3304 Alexandria (48-seat dining car; de-skirted) (Did this run on the Crescent or should it be a Budd diner?)
> -951 (Coach-Lounge)
> -822 (52s Coach)
> -824 (52s Coach)
>
>
> Add-on:
> -2017 Tiger River (10-6 sleeper)
> -2022 York River (10-6 sleeper)
> -817 (52s Coach)
> -830 (52s Coach)
> -Maybe more 10-6 and 52s coaches if demand is there or other railroads fit onto the the same car plan




James
 

I for one have found this topic interesting as I like seeing the consists on varying dates. Also the other info on locomotives assigned and how they were assigned. 

I saw one mention of the 11 Double bedroom sleepers and wanted to remind everyone of the clinic I did on building these.
The clinic can be found here:


I posted pictures on the modeling group as well.

James Wall
Rural Hall, NC




SouRwyFan
 
Edited

Bob,

That actually looks like a train that would have originated straight out of North Avenue.
They were made up very different than Atlanta through trains.

BR, Rahl


Bill Schafer
 

David:

The Royal Palm, the Peach Queen, and the Piedmont Limited of the 1960s all carried a lot of head-end traffic, typically in heavyweight cars. The Palm usually had lightweight coaches, but the coaches of the other two trains were usually heavyweights. To recreate the consists of these trains would depend on what other heavyweight cars are already available. A PRR X-29 boxcar, heavyweight Southern RPO, and heavyweight Southern baggage car would look right at home on these trains, but you’d also have to add a modernized (or not so modernized) heavyweight coach to maintain a correct consist. Lightweight Pullmans of the kind used on the Southern Crescent would be okay.

If your goal is to create the most authentic consists with the least number of different cars, it would seem to me that your original idea of offering the Southern Crescent (to the late-1960s/1970s folks) or the Southerner or Tennessean (to the folks interested in a prewar consist) is the course that will keep you the most sane. Even the Tennessean consist had heavyweight Pullmans in it from the outset. It never was a pure streamlined train, despite the publicity.

—Bill

On Jun 28, 2020, at 13:30, David Friedlander <davidjfriedlander@...> wrote:

Jason,

Interesting thought.  What would a typical train look like for the royal palm, peach queen, or piedmont, in roughly the same time frame or slightly earlier? I'm far less familiar with those trains.

David

On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 1:22 AM Jason Greene <jason.p.greene@...> wrote:
Just my thoughts:

Using your list here-

late 1960's Crescent /early 1970's Southern Crescent (8-cars):
-1700 Corinth (60FT Bag-Mail, with plating over flutes)
-1751 Greeneville (Bag-Mail, with plating over lower flutes)
-2010 Rapidan River (10-6 sleeper)
-2014 Shenandoa River (10-6 sleeper)
-3304 Alexandria (48-seat dining car; de-skirted) (Did this run on the Crescent or should it be a Budd diner?)
-951 (Coach-Lounge)
-822 (52s Coach)
-824 (52s Coach)


Add-on:
-2017 Tiger River (10-6 sleeper)
-2022 York River (10-6 sleeper)
-817 (52s Coach)
-830 (52s Coach)
-Maybe more 10-6 and 52s coaches if demand is there or other railroads fit onto the the same car plan

Add on the 11 bedroom sleepers that were common. Do some of your 10-6 sleepers in the other roads like L&N or FEC. Maybe an add-on AWP diner or sleeper. I believe the PRR has some 10-6 sleepers of the same floor plan without fluting. 

You take all these and you now have a good Royal Palm and maybe a Peach Queen or Piedmont. 

Jason Greene 

> On Jun 27, 2020, at 9:42 PM, David Friedlander <davidjfriedlander@...> wrote:
> 
> late 1960's Crescent /early 1970's Southern Crescent (8-cars):
> -1700 Corinth (60FT Bag-Mail, with plating over flutes)
> -1751 Greeneville (Bag-Mail, with plating over lower flutes)
> -2010 Rapidan River (10-6 sleeper)
> -2014 Shenandoa River (10-6 sleeper)
> -3304 Alexandria (48-seat dining car; de-skirted) (Did this run on the Crescent or should it be a Budd diner?)
> -951 (Coach-Lounge)
> -822 (52s Coach)
> -824 (52s Coach)
 
 
> Add-on:
> -2017 Tiger River (10-6 sleeper)
> -2022 York River (10-6 sleeper)
> -817 (52s Coach)
> -830 (52s Coach)
> -Maybe more 10-6 and 52s coaches if demand is there or other railroads fit onto the the same car plan





Byron Osborn
 

I lived along the AGS in north Alabama.  I am interested in the make up of the passengers trains that used that route.  I believe the two were the Birmingham Special and the Pelican.  Can anyone help?  Thanks


Warren Stephens
 

I have pictures of at least three diversions of the Pelican over TA&G due to derailments on the AGS. Two in the mid 50s and one in the mid 60. I think I have the consist of at least one of those. I’ll try and dig that info out tomorrow. As I recall the mid 50s trains were still just classic passenger trains. The mid 60s train was more head end and a little threadbare. 

Warren D. Stephens 
CofG and TA&G fan


On Jun 28, 2020, at 7:42 PM, SouRwyFan via groups.io <blackaerocoupe@...> wrote:

David,

Answers to question #1 

From american-rails.com website 
With most historical information per Bill Haithcoat
<Tennessean Consist 1952.png>
<Southerner Consist 1952.png>
<Royal Palm Consist 1952.png>
<Crescent Consist 1952.png>


SouRwyFan
 

David,


Some observations on your question #2:


As for a late 1960's Crescent /early 1970's Southern Crescent,


The PS 56 seat coaches and diners, they didn't hold up well and were out of service by mid 60's. Budd diners would have been the norm.


The Crescent would have run regularly wit a master room-2 drawing room-tavern lounge.


Be careful with using 52-seat coach numbers as there were three different built car series which had the same window arrangement but obviously had different roofs, ends, etc.


Since there were only three 11BRM cars (Made from Sleeper-Lounge-Obs cars) they were the exception and probably rarer than say even a 14-4 sleeper.


Also, Bag-Dorm-Coach Bedford is #705.

 


SouRwyFan
 
Edited

David,


An answer to your question #3:

All the 1941 built equipment rode on prewar trucks the were distinctive in that the brake cylinders were mounted low on the truck frame at the inward ends.
Their were a few exceptions, where trucks were traded from car to car but the one exception was on the 841-846 they had their trucks changed at least twice after delivery before being placed on the more modern trucks they rode from the 60's forward.
The 1949 build equipment was on the more modern postwar inside swing hanger trucks.


George Eichelberger
 

I realize these book pages have already been distributed by the list BUT…..

Aside from the fact SRHA would not want to see pages from books it produced and copyrighted simply copied and distributed we all owe the authors and copyright holders of any book the thanks for researching and writing the books we have by observing their ownership rights.

We do not want to see the SouthernRailway.io group have copyright problems from anywhere. Please do NOT simply scan and post copyrighted material!

Ike


SouRwyFan
 
Edited

David,


Some answers to your question #1: 


From american-rails.com website 

With most historical information per Bill Haithcoat


>>Edited & removed<<



From Car Names, Numbers and Consists, Published by Robert Wayner in 1972


>>Edited & removed<<



Ike,

Understood & removed.

BR, Rahl


Tracey Green
 

So I think this is on topic, but how were the Crescent Sisters used on the Crescent? That is, how many on a single Crescent train? Did every Crescent carry one? Were they ever used on any train other than a Crescent? I have a fondness for those if for no other reason than I have a photo of me in front of Crescent Moon in Spartanburg in 1972. 


George Eichelberger
 

From SRHA Archives Presidents’ File Box 662 File 11670, the consist(s) of Southern Railway train Nos. 1 and 2 as of 11-15-71.

I have to search for the slide but I think (!) I have a photo of a SP sleeper that had come through NOLA . In the early 70s, it was not uncommon for the trains to have a N&W (blue) coach.

Ike


Marv Clemons
 

Love those master consists, Ike.  Here's a copy from 1969 showing all Southern and CofG trains in the final stages of their great disappearing act.

Marv