Locked Southern Railway Books


Will Kesler
 

I recall that there was discussion about a Southern Railway book to potentially be made. I do not know if this will indeed come to be true, but I would like to ask if there would be anyway to make a book on the photos of Southern steam engines. Not many of these books exist, and most of them have few color photos if not any. I would like to ask is there a way to just compile a bunch of photos into one book or multiple, and maybe include commentary on the photos. It seems a lot of the discussions here are more on scenery and sites than trains, which is something I’m honestly not very interested in. Even if no such book can be made, could there at least be a way to view these photos without traveling to Tennessee? Something like this would be very interesting to me, and answers to this question would be very appreciated.


Donnie Dixon
 

Just a small point of order.  COPYRIGHT may just need to be considered.  Officially, one cannot just compile a bunch of photos and put them into a book without the permission of the originator.  Of course, it is done all the time. We know that. But most of what is copied is not for commercial use, so not much is done.  However, commercial use of someone else's work is frowned upon. Builder's photos and library of congress stuff that is of a certain age can be used, but it is tricky

Donnie


A&Y Dave in MD
 

Will, I can appreciate your request. I would remind you of a few things I’ve learned.

1. There are two major but out-of-print photo books on Southern steam—Prince’s and the Ranks & Lowe books cover the classes and some history pretty well. There is regional coverage in several books by Tillotson and class examples in the Southern Railway Handbook by Wiley & Wallace.
2. There are back issues of TIES that go in detail about some of the most common variants either due to shop s or time among popular classes of 2-8-2’s, 4-8-2’s, 2-10-2’s and some 2-8-0’s.
3. The last regular steam on the Southern was 1953, early in the color film era, especially among amateur photographers. So there is limited color photography of the majority of decades when Southern ran steam.
4. There are substantial color photos of steam in Southern Railway in Color Volumes 1 & 2 books.
5. There are a series of CD-ROMs with many photos by class of steam power that can be purchased from SRHA.
6. There are several web sites with Southern steam photos, especially southern.railfan.net and some of the more general railroad archive sites.
7. Donnie mentioned copyright and I agree it is a major obstacle for any commercial product.
8. No one has uncovered a trove of photos from a Southern executive like the Barriger library did from the B&O. And if they did they may not be endowed with a mission that can justify and pay for scanning and releasing them free of charge like the Barriger on Flikr.

It is hard to say that a comprehensive book would ever be produced again given the market for hardcopy books right now, but with some careful collecting and purchases, you can compile a lot of information. And who knows? Vinyl records made a comeback.

There’s a lot on my list if I won the lottery so that I had the resources. A book on the wide variety of Southern freight cars up to 1937 (due to amalgamation on lines) would be one. Steam locomotives of the Southern would be another. A non-profit book on the A&Y is another.

We all need dreams.

Best,

Dave


Sent from Dave Bott's iPhone

On Jan 22, 2023, at 2:17 PM, Donnie Dixon <rf4cnam69@...> wrote:

Just a small point of order. COPYRIGHT may just need to be considered. Officially, one cannot just compile a bunch of photos and put them into a book without the permission of the originator. Of course, it is done all the time. We know that. But most of what is copied is not for commercial use, so not much is done. However, commercial use of someone else's work is frowned upon. Builder's photos and library of congress stuff that is of a certain age can be used, but it is tricky

Donnie







Will Kesler
 

I thank you for your comments, it is obvious I do not know very much about how things are done with books to publish things so I am sorry for that. I will however keep searching for photos as a hobbie as I have 2 pictures of a Ps-4 and Ms-4 (One at Spencer, one at Charlotte). Best of luck to everyone.


George Eichelberger
 

All:

Donnie has a good point but it’s important to note, the copyright/right to publish of most of the photos in the SRHA archives are held by SRHA.

Getting anything published takes, manpower to get it done. We have started books on various Southern lines (the “S” Line from Salisbury to Knoxville will be first, maybe in two parts), the series of rolling stock books is moving ahead nicely and now a Southern steam loco book is coming together.

The time conflict we have is due to the fact that we have to get the various subjects organized in the archives BEFORE we can get that material published. There are many thousands of photos, documents and drawings we need to scan. (Additional “new” material has been coming in regularly…..)

The Archives work sessions are the third Friday and Saturday of every month but they usually begin on Thursday and could go through Sunday if folks were interested. We organize visits to the archives other times when people tell us they will be at TVRM.

The best way to obtain archives materials and get books published?….come help! …..archives@...

Ike

On Jan 22, 2023, at 2:17 PM, Donnie Dixon <rf4cnam69@...> wrote:

Just a small point of order. COPYRIGHT may just need to be considered. Officially, one cannot just compile a bunch of photos and put them into a book without the permission of the originator. Of course, it is done all the time. We know that. But most of what is copied is not for commercial use, so not much is done. However, commercial use of someone else's work is frowned upon. Builder's photos and library of congress stuff that is of a certain age can be used, but it is tricky

Donnie


George Eichelberger
 

Simply as info. Presently there are 3,272 Southern steam loco scans, 141 memos, and 1,424 steam loco drawings in the archives. It’s not really possible to estimate how many more there are of those to scan but I would be surprised if we are at the 75% mark.

In other categories: there are 3,352 items in the just the Southern 40’ box car files and 18,767 in the diesel digital files….(500 not yet filed from this weekend.)

Ike
 

On Jan 22, 2023, at 4:06 PM, Will Kesler <williamkesler354@...> wrote:

I thank you for your comments, it is obvious I do not know very much about how things are done with books to publish things so I am sorry for that. I will however keep searching for photos as a hobbie as I have 2 pictures of a Ps-4 and Ms-4 (One at Spencer, one at Charlotte). Best of luck to everyone.


Kevin Centers
 

In an effort to stir the pot and drum up a little discussion, let’s talk about a steam book series. SRHA has a project in the works, and it hit the front burner this weekend.  That means we’re moving ahead, but we’re not so far along that we can’t pivot the project based on demand-and we want the books to be in high demand by you folks. 

Our basic structure will be the already mentioned 1990’s steam articles. Those were full of great info and really shed a lot of light on the world of Southern steam. We realize a lot of folks have never seen those articles and those that have will now have the opportunity to own the info in a one source book. Next, we plan to republish -some- of the original pictures, but enhance the books with photos and drawings from the archives-many of which have never been published. 

As for format, we’re leaning on a landscape or horizontal format with plenty of room for large photos. Where possible we will use color photos, especially since there aren’t many in print and like Paul Simon sang, everything looks worse in black and white.  In an effort to control our price and ultimately your cost, the books will probably be soft cover and be wheel type specific-a volume for 2-8-0’s, a volume for 4-6-2’s, etc.

Do you folks think this is a project that you could support by purchasing the books once they are published?  Is there anything else you would like to see?  Is there something you would prefer to be omitted?  You all write the checks and we want to give you a good product that you’ll be happy to buy. 



On Jan 22, 2023, at 4:24 PM, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:

 Simply as info. Presently there are 3,272 Southern steam loco scans, 141 memos, and 1,424 steam loco drawings in the archives. It’s not really possible to estimate how many more there are of those to scan but I would be surprised if we are at the 75% mark.

In other categories: there are 3,352 items in the just the Southern 40’ box car files and 18,767 in the diesel digital files….(500 not yet filed from this weekend.)

Ike
 

On Jan 22, 2023, at 4:06 PM, Will Kesler <williamkesler354@...> wrote:

I thank you for your comments, it is obvious I do not know very much about how things are done with books to publish things so I am sorry for that. I will however keep searching for photos as a hobbie as I have 2 pictures of a Ps-4 and Ms-4 (One at Spencer, one at Charlotte). Best of luck to everyone.


Will Kesler
 

I think I would definitely support this project by purchasing the books.


C J Wyatt
 

Sounds like a reasonable approach and I would hope to purchase. What wheel arrangement do expect to lead off with? You could go with the one which has the most general appeal outside of the Southern Railway fans, or you could perfect the format with something like the Consolidation's.

Jack Wyatt

On Sunday, January 22, 2023 at 06:09:20 PM EST, Kevin Centers <klcenters@...> wrote:








In an effort to stir the pot and drum up a little discussion, let’s talk about a steam book series. SRHA has a project in the works, and it hit the front burner this weekend.  That means we’re moving ahead, but we’re not so far along that we can’t pivot the project based on demand-and we want the books to be in high demand by you folks. 




Our basic structure will be the already mentioned 1990’s steam articles. Those were full of great info and really shed a lot of light on the world of Southern steam. We realize a lot of folks have never seen those articles and those that have will now have the opportunity to own the info in a one source book. Next, we plan to republish -some- of the original pictures, but enhance the books with photos and drawings from the archives-many of which have never been published. 




As for format, we’re leaning on a landscape or horizontal format with plenty of room for large photos. Where possible we will use color photos, especially since there aren’t many in print and like Paul Simon sang, everything looks worse in black and white.  In an effort to control our price and ultimately your cost, the books will probably be soft cover and be wheel type specific-a volume for 2-8-0’s, a volume for 4-6-2’s, etc.




Do you folks think this is a project that you could support by purchasing the books once they are published?  Is there anything else you would like to see?  Is there something you would prefer to be omitted?  You all write the checks and we want to give you a good product that you’ll be happy to buy. 









On Jan 22, 2023, at 4:24 PM, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:


  
 Simply as info. Presently there are 3,272 Southern steam loco scans, 141 memos, and 1,424 steam loco drawings in the archives. It’s not really possible to estimate how many more there are of those to scan but I would be surprised if we are at the 75% mark.



In other categories: there are 3,352 items in the just the Southern 40’ box car files and 18,767 in the diesel digital files….(500 not yet filed from this weekend.)




Ike

 



On Jan 22, 2023, at 4:06 PM, Will Kesler <williamkesler354@...> wrote:


I thank you for your comments, it is obvious I do not know very much about how things are done with books to publish things so I am sorry for that. I will however keep searching for photos as a hobbie as I have 2 pictures of a Ps-4 and Ms-4 (One at Spencer, one at Charlotte). Best of luck to everyone.





Kevin Centers
 

We don’t know yet. It’ll probably be kind of random at this point depending a great deal on ease of digging up new data and pictures.

On Jan 22, 2023, at 6:20 PM, C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...> wrote:

Sounds like a reasonable approach and I would hope to purchase. What wheel arrangement do expect to lead off with? You could go with the one which has the most general appeal outside of the Southern Railway fans, or you could perfect the format with something like the Consolidation's.

Jack Wyatt






On Sunday, January 22, 2023 at 06:09:20 PM EST, Kevin Centers <klcenters@...> wrote:








In an effort to stir the pot and drum up a little discussion, let’s talk about a steam book series. SRHA has a project in the works, and it hit the front burner this weekend. That means we’re moving ahead, but we’re not so far along that we can’t pivot the project based on demand-and we want the books to be in high demand by you folks.




Our basic structure will be the already mentioned 1990’s steam articles. Those were full of great info and really shed a lot of light on the world of Southern steam. We realize a lot of folks have never seen those articles and those that have will now have the opportunity to own the info in a one source book. Next, we plan to republish -some- of the original pictures, but enhance the books with photos and drawings from the archives-many of which have never been published.




As for format, we’re leaning on a landscape or horizontal format with plenty of room for large photos. Where possible we will use color photos, especially since there aren’t many in print and like Paul Simon sang, everything looks worse in black and white. In an effort to control our price and ultimately your cost, the books will probably be soft cover and be wheel type specific-a volume for 2-8-0’s, a volume for 4-6-2’s, etc.




Do you folks think this is a project that you could support by purchasing the books once they are published? Is there anything else you would like to see? Is there something you would prefer to be omitted? You all write the checks and we want to give you a good product that you’ll be happy to buy.









On Jan 22, 2023, at 4:24 PM, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:



 Simply as info. Presently there are 3,272 Southern steam loco scans, 141 memos, and 1,424 steam loco drawings in the archives. It’s not really possible to estimate how many more there are of those to scan but I would be surprised if we are at the 75% mark.



In other categories: there are 3,352 items in the just the Southern 40’ box car files and 18,767 in the diesel digital files….(500 not yet filed from this weekend.)




Ike





On Jan 22, 2023, at 4:06 PM, Will Kesler <williamkesler354@...> wrote:


I thank you for your comments, it is obvious I do not know very much about how things are done with books to publish things so I am sorry for that. I will however keep searching for photos as a hobbie as I have 2 pictures of a Ps-4 and Ms-4 (One at Spencer, one at Charlotte). Best of luck to everyone.











David Eisman
 

I would be interested in purchasing several books on different Southern steam locomotive wheel arrangements .
Thanks for your hard work on this and other book projects.
David Eisman

On Jan 22, 2023, at 6:28 PM, Kevin Centers <klcenters@...> wrote:

We don’t know yet. It’ll probably be kind of random at this point depending a great deal on ease of digging up new data and pictures.


On Jan 22, 2023, at 6:20 PM, C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...> wrote:

Sounds like a reasonable approach and I would hope to purchase. What wheel arrangement do expect to lead off with? You could go with the one which has the most general appeal outside of the Southern Railway fans, or you could perfect the format with something like the Consolidation's.

Jack Wyatt






On Sunday, January 22, 2023 at 06:09:20 PM EST, Kevin Centers <klcenters@...> wrote:








In an effort to stir the pot and drum up a little discussion, let’s talk about a steam book series. SRHA has a project in the works, and it hit the front burner this weekend. That means we’re moving ahead, but we’re not so far along that we can’t pivot the project based on demand-and we want the books to be in high demand by you folks.




Our basic structure will be the already mentioned 1990’s steam articles. Those were full of great info and really shed a lot of light on the world of Southern steam. We realize a lot of folks have never seen those articles and those that have will now have the opportunity to own the info in a one source book. Next, we plan to republish -some- of the original pictures, but enhance the books with photos and drawings from the archives-many of which have never been published.




As for format, we’re leaning on a landscape or horizontal format with plenty of room for large photos. Where possible we will use color photos, especially since there aren’t many in print and like Paul Simon sang, everything looks worse in black and white. In an effort to control our price and ultimately your cost, the books will probably be soft cover and be wheel type specific-a volume for 2-8-0’s, a volume for 4-6-2’s, etc.




Do you folks think this is a project that you could support by purchasing the books once they are published? Is there anything else you would like to see? Is there something you would prefer to be omitted? You all write the checks and we want to give you a good product that you’ll be happy to buy.









On Jan 22, 2023, at 4:24 PM, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:



 Simply as info. Presently there are 3,272 Southern steam loco scans, 141 memos, and 1,424 steam loco drawings in the archives. It’s not really possible to estimate how many more there are of those to scan but I would be surprised if we are at the 75% mark.



In other categories: there are 3,352 items in the just the Southern 40’ box car files and 18,767 in the diesel digital files….(500 not yet filed from this weekend.)




Ike





On Jan 22, 2023, at 4:06 PM, Will Kesler <williamkesler354@...> wrote:

I thank you for your comments, it is obvious I do not know very much about how things are done with books to publish things so I am sorry for that. I will however keep searching for photos as a hobbie as I have 2 pictures of a Ps-4 and Ms-4 (One at Spencer, one at Charlotte). Best of luck to everyone.














Michael Roderick
 

I would also interested this series of articles about Southern’s different steam locomotives wheel arrangement. I am looking forward to seeing what the SRHA has covered.

Mike Roderick

On Jan 22, 2023, at 22:26, David Eisman <davideisman@...> wrote:

I would be interested in purchasing several books on different Southern steam locomotive wheel arrangements .
Thanks for your hard work on this and other book projects.
David Eisman
On Jan 22, 2023, at 6:28 PM, Kevin Centers <klcenters@...> wrote:
We don’t know yet. It’ll probably be kind of random at this point depending a great deal on ease of digging up new data and pictures.
On Jan 22, 2023, at 6:20 PM, C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...> wrote:
Sounds like a reasonable approach and I would hope to purchase. What wheel arrangement do expect to lead off with? You could go with the one which has the most general appeal outside of the Southern Railway fans, or you could perfect the format with something like the Consolidation's.
Jack Wyatt
On Sunday, January 22, 2023 at 06:09:20 PM EST, Kevin Centers <klcenters@...> wrote:
In an effort to stir the pot and drum up a little discussion, let’s talk about a steam book series. SRHA has a project in the works, and it hit the front burner this weekend. That means we’re moving ahead, but we’re not so far along that we can’t pivot the project based on demand-and we want the books to be in high demand by you folks.
Our basic structure will be the already mentioned 1990’s steam articles. Those were full of great info and really shed a lot of light on the world of Southern steam. We realize a lot of folks have never seen those articles and those that have will now have the opportunity to own the info in a one source book. Next, we plan to republish -some- of the original pictures, but enhance the books with photos and drawings from the archives-many of which have never been published.
As for format, we’re leaning on a landscape or horizontal format with plenty of room for large photos. Where possible we will use color photos, especially since there aren’t many in print and like Paul Simon sang, everything looks worse in black and white. In an effort to control our price and ultimately your cost, the books will probably be soft cover and be wheel type specific-a volume for 2-8-0’s, a volume for 4-6-2’s, etc.
Do you folks think this is a project that you could support by purchasing the books once they are published? Is there anything else you would like to see? Is there something you would prefer to be omitted? You all write the checks and we want to give you a good product that you’ll be happy to buy.
On Jan 22, 2023, at 4:24 PM, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:
 Simply as info. Presently there are 3,272 Southern steam loco scans, 141 memos, and 1,424 steam loco drawings in the archives. It’s not really possible to estimate how many more there are of those to scan but I would be surprised if we are at the 75% mark.
In other categories: there are 3,352 items in the just the Southern 40’ box car files and 18,767 in the diesel digital files….(500 not yet filed from this weekend.)
Ike
On Jan 22, 2023, at 4:06 PM, Will Kesler <williamkesler354@...> wrote:
I thank you for your comments, it is obvious I do not know very much about how things are done with books to publish things so I am sorry for that. I will however keep searching for photos as a hobbie as I have 2 pictures of a Ps-4 and Ms-4 (One at Spencer, one at Charlotte). Best of luck to everyone.



Evan Whatley
 

I would buy the whole series (switchers, consolidations, mikados, pacifics, mountains, bigger boys, and Odds & Ends). I would also be glad to volunteer my time via the SHRA and make this happen.
--
-Evan Whatley


SouRwyFan
 

I know it's takes financial support and labor is always at a premium and lacking but I hope this project picks up steam as it would be most welcome and long overdue.
 
From my experience and perspective I really would hope that it would be possible to spiral bind this and any future reference books as I'm always breaking the binding on my books and the best ones I've ever had enjoyed the most have been spiral bound and they last forever without becoming a loose leaf mess.
 
BR, Rahl


A&Y Dave in MD
 

I agree with landscape, spiral bound format as desirable. The Santa Fe HS used this in their freight car series. SRHA MoW reprints were the same. They stand up to actual use better than softbound or hardbound books.

I would be most interested in consolidations, ten-wheelers, and 0-6-0 switchers in terms of production priority, but would want to buy a complete set.

Dave

Sent from Dave Bott's iPhone


George Eichelberger
 

Spiral bound books, esp. large format are convenient for multiple reasons. It is also quite easy to disassemble and copy each page. That would be okay if someone was marking up a drawing for modeling but after it was published, I received a report a 40’ box car book had been copied because someone “didn’t want to pay for it”. 

All revenue for virtually every SRHA publication has gone only to SRHA. We have been approached by authors wanting to write books using SRHA archives materials with the revenue going only to the author….with no offer to pay anything for the use of the material. 

“Split” revenues are certainly possible. We realize paying typical “for publication” rates would make most projects too expensive.

Ike

PS Two other books I would suggest someone consider doing would both use material from the Oscar Kimsey, Jr collection. His negatives on both short line railroads and industrial operations are as extensive as I am aware of anywhere. (As always contact archives@....)



On Jan 23, 2023, at 12:34 PM, A&Y Dave in MD <dbott@...> wrote:

I agree with landscape, spiral bound format as desirable. The Santa Fe HS used this in their freight car series. SRHA MoW reprints were the same.  They stand up to actual use better than softbound  or hardbound books.

I would be most interested in consolidations, ten-wheelers, and 0-6-0 switchers in terms of production priority, but would want to buy a complete set.

Dave

Sent from Dave Bott's iPhone