locked Southern segregation question in 1946


George Eichelberger
 

Contrary to what many people might assume, the Southern did not like how “Jim Crow” laws effected their passenger operations and equipment designs. There are multiple memos and letters in the Southern Presidents’ and passenger car files on the subject. (The Southern held up the construction of Washington Union Station because the plans did not include a washroom for its “colored” Firemen…a story for another day…)

The attached memo from Harry DeButts was written as the Southern was just beginning its post-war lightweight passenger car programs.

Ike


Doug Alexander
 

I've always wondered if someone at Southern was pouring on the irony when they named the Southerner's three Jim Crow coaches "South Carolina" seeing is that's where secession and ultimately the War started?

Doug A
Atlanta.

--
Doug Alexander
Atlanta


John Stewart
 

HI Ike

 

Sad but interesting. 

 

I never thought about how segregated facilities cost businesses money

 

John

 

John R Stewart

www.bhamrails.info

205-901-3790

 

image004

 

From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io [mailto:main@SouthernRailway.groups.io] On Behalf Of George Eichelberger
Sent: Thursday, September 3, 2020 8:28 PM
To: main@southernrailway.groups.io
Subject: [SouthernRailway] Southern segregation question in 1946

 

Contrary to what many people might assume, the Southern did not like how “Jim Crow” laws effected their passenger operations and equipment designs. There are multiple memos and letters in the Southern Presidents’ and passenger car files on the subject. (The Southern held up the construction of Washington Union Station because the plans did not include a washroom for its “colored” Firemen…a story for another day…)

 

The attached memo from Harry DeButts was written as the Southern was just beginning its post-war lightweight passenger car programs.

 

Ike

 


William L Vanderburg
 

Anyone who’s ever been inside a Jim Crow coach knows the segregated restrooms are slightly the size of a porta potty. 

On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 11:32 AM John Stewart <jstew@...> wrote:

HI Ike

 

Sad but interesting. 

 

I never thought about how segregated facilities cost businesses money

 

John

 

John R Stewart

www.bhamrails.info

205-901-3790

 

image004

 

From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io [mailto:main@SouthernRailway.groups.io] On Behalf Of George Eichelberger
Sent: Thursday, September 3, 2020 8:28 PM
To: main@southernrailway.groups.io
Subject: [SouthernRailway] Southern segregation question in 1946

 

Contrary to what many people might assume, the Southern did not like how “Jim Crow” laws effected their passenger operations and equipment designs. There are multiple memos and letters in the Southern Presidents’ and passenger car files on the subject. (The Southern held up the construction of Washington Union Station because the plans did not include a washroom for its “colored” Firemen…a story for another day…)

 

The attached memo from Harry DeButts was written as the Southern was just beginning its post-war lightweight passenger car programs.

 

Ike

 










Kevin Centers
 

It should be noted that in the case of the 1941 cars that Pullman built for the Southerner and Tennessean, the segregated section of the car contained the larger restrooms with lounge space. They are clearly marked that way on the floor plan. The smaller restrooms were in the unsegregated area. 

On Sep 4, 2020, at 1:49 PM, William L Vanderburg <Army30th@...> wrote:


Anyone who’s ever been inside a Jim Crow coach knows the segregated restrooms are slightly the size of a porta potty. 

On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 11:32 AM John Stewart <jstew@...> wrote:

HI Ike

 

Sad but interesting. 

 

I never thought about how segregated facilities cost businesses money

 

John

 

John R Stewart

www.bhamrails.info

205-901-3790

 

<image001.jpg>

 

From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io [mailto:main@SouthernRailway.groups.io] On Behalf Of George Eichelberger
Sent: Thursday, September 3, 2020 8:28 PM
To: main@southernrailway.groups.io
Subject: [SouthernRailway] Southern segregation question in 1946

 

Contrary to what many people might assume, the Southern did not like how “Jim Crow” laws effected their passenger operations and equipment designs. There are multiple memos and letters in the Southern Presidents’ and passenger car files on the subject. (The Southern held up the construction of Washington Union Station because the plans did not include a washroom for its “colored” Firemen…a story for another day…)

 

The attached memo from Harry DeButts was written as the Southern was just beginning its post-war lightweight passenger car programs.

 

Ike

 

<image002.jpg>










Warren Stephens
 

It is important to remember that Southern didn't just subject passengers to Jim Crow but also employees of color. Vintage Southern employee timetables tell us that employees of color were treated at different "colored" hospitals and were carried to said hospital by a different "colored" ambulance service. I don't recall such segregated care indicated in vintage CofG or TA&G employees timetables but I am sure it happened. If memory serves similar segregated medical care was indicated in Georgia Railroad employee timetables. I will not go to the trouble of typing them out but rule 1193 and 1194 in the TA&G rule book - pertaining to passenger conductors - are blatantly Jim Crow. Willingly followed or dutifully followed, Jim Crow was an ugly thing. 

Warren D. Stephens
CofG and TA&G fan

On Friday, September 4, 2020, 01:49:26 PM EDT, William L Vanderburg <army30th@...> wrote:


Anyone who’s ever been inside a Jim Crow coach knows the segregated restrooms are slightly the size of a porta potty. 

On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 11:32 AM John Stewart <jstew@...> wrote:

HI Ike

 

Sad but interesting. 

 

I never thought about how segregated facilities cost businesses money

 

John

 

John R Stewart

www.bhamrails.info

205-901-3790

 

image004

 

From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io [mailto:main@SouthernRailway.groups.io] On Behalf Of George Eichelberger
Sent: Thursday, September 3, 2020 8:28 PM
To: main@southernrailway.groups.io
Subject: [SouthernRailway] Southern segregation question in 1946

 

Contrary to what many people might assume, the Southern did not like how “Jim Crow” laws effected their passenger operations and equipment designs. There are multiple memos and letters in the Southern Presidents’ and passenger car files on the subject. (The Southern held up the construction of Washington Union Station because the plans did not include a washroom for its “colored” Firemen…a story for another day…)

 

The attached memo from Harry DeButts was written as the Southern was just beginning its post-war lightweight passenger car programs.

 

Ike

 










Tim
 

The typical small stations on all of the railroads of in the south were laid out in virtually the same way. Starting at one end of the station, there is the white waiting room. Next is the agent's/operator's office, with ticket windows on both sides. Next is the colored waiting room, and then the baggage/freight room. Most times there were no restrooms in the station, just an out house (which may have been restricted to white patrons only, I'm not sure).

After these legalized outrages were removed, the former colored waiting rooms were used for storage, often by the signal department.

Tim Rumph
Lancaster, SC


George Eichelberger
 

John:

There is an entire “story” about this. My interest is simply in “straight down the middle” history and I’d like to see more published on this topic published in a straightforward way

There are a group of, usually handwritten, notes in the archives where Conductors (who would be “white” in the era we are talking about) wrote SR management about how they thought it was wrong for them, to have to go through a train, find “colored” passengers and tell them they had to move to a segregated car as the train approached a State line where Jim Crow laws were in effect. Their concern was simply they were “good customers” deserving better treatment, not that they were making a point.

The last place where this occurred (to my limited knowledge) was on trains going from NC and DC into VA.

Ike

PS I have received a remarkable number of inquiries over the years where people, usually writing books, asked about segregated Pullman facilities, usually to describe how blacks could not ride in them. I heard everything from disbelief to outright consternation when I wrote that Pullmans were NOT segregated. Anyone who could pay for a ticket could book whatever Pullman space they wanted.


On Sep 4, 2020, at 11:32 AM, John Stewart <jstew@...> wrote:

HI Ike
 
Sad but interesting.  
 
I never thought about how segregated facilities cost businesses money
 
John
 
John R Stewart
205-901-3790
 
<image001.jpg>
 
From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io [mailto:main@SouthernRailway.groups.io] On Behalf Of George Eichelberger
Sent: Thursday, September 3, 2020 8:28 PM
To: main@southernrailway.groups.io
Subject: [SouthernRailway] Southern segregation question in 1946
 
Contrary to what many people might assume, the Southern did not like how “Jim Crow” laws effected their passenger operations and equipment designs. There are multiple memos and letters in the Southern Presidents’ and passenger car files on the subject. (The Southern held up the construction of Washington Union Station because the plans did not include a washroom for its “colored” Firemen…a story for another day…)
 
The attached memo from Harry DeButts was written as the Southern was just beginning its post-war lightweight passenger car programs.
 
Ike
 
<image002.jpg>



David Payne
 

 
Not always the case.  Many times a station had both "White" and "Colored" waiting rooms adjacent to each other on one end of the building with the "Colored" to the rear and the "White" to trackside.  The agent's office would have windows to both waiting rooms to conduct business.
David Payne
Ga
 
 

In a message dated 9/4/2020 2:35:17 PM Eastern Standard Time, tarumph@... writes:
 
The typical small stations on all of the railroads of in the south were laid out in virtually the same way. Starting at one end of the station, there is the white waiting room. Next is the agent's/operator's office, with ticket windows on both sides. Next is the colored waiting room, and then the baggage/freight room. Most times there were no restrooms in the station, just an out house (which may have been restricted to white patrons only, I'm not sure).

After these legalized outrages were removed, the former colored waiting rooms were used for storage, often by the signal department.

Tim Rumph
Lancaster, SC


Carl Ardrey
 

More on this topic.  Conductors on the Charleston Division are warned not to move "colored" passengers out of air conditioned cars once they have been seated especially non air conditioned (NAC) cars.


rwbrv4
 

That's the way Lexington SC was.  I spent my early years in that station.
Rick Bell


-----Original Message-----
From: David Payne via groups.io <davidcofga@...>
To: tarumph@...; main@SouthernRailway.groups.io
Sent: Fri, Sep 4, 2020 5:37 pm
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Southern segregation question in 1946

 
Not always the case.  Many times a station had both "White" and "Colored" waiting rooms adjacent to each other on one end of the building with the "Colored" to the rear and the "White" to trackside.  The agent's office would have windows to both waiting rooms to conduct business.
David Payne
Ga
 
 
In a message dated 9/4/2020 2:35:17 PM Eastern Standard Time, tarumph@... writes:
 
The typical small stations on all of the railroads of in the south were laid out in virtually the same way. Starting at one end of the station, there is the white waiting room. Next is the agent's/operator's office, with ticket windows on both sides. Next is the colored waiting room, and then the baggage/freight room. Most times there were no restrooms in the station, just an out house (which may have been restricted to white patrons only, I'm not sure).

After these legalized outrages were removed, the former colored waiting rooms were used for storage, often by the signal department.

Tim Rumph
Lancaster, SC


William L Vanderburg
 

Barber Junction station had two waiting rooms, an agents office in the corner below the tower, and a baggage/freight room.  The white waiting room was separated from the agent by an open slat wall with a window while the colored waiting room was separated by a solid wall with a window.  Both waiting rooms faced a rail line be cause the station sat at a diamond. 

On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 11:08 PM rwbrv4 via groups.io <dccinstallssales=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:


That's the way Lexington SC was.  I spent my early years in that station.

Rick Bell










-----Original Message-----


From: David Payne via groups.io <davidcofga=aol.com@groups.io>


To: tarumph@...; main@SouthernRailway.groups.io


Sent: Fri, Sep 4, 2020 5:37 pm


Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Southern segregation question in 1946



















 






Not always the case.  Many times a station had both "White" and "Colored" waiting rooms adjacent to each other on one end of the building with the "Colored" to the rear and the "White" to trackside.  The agent's office would have windows to both waiting rooms to conduct business.






David Payne






Ga






 






 








In a message dated 9/4/2020 2:35:17 PM Eastern Standard Time, tarumph@... writes:



 
















The typical small stations on all of the railroads of in the south were laid out in virtually the same way. Starting at one end of the station, there is the white waiting room. Next is the agent's/operator's office, with ticket windows on both sides. Next is the colored waiting room, and then the baggage/freight room. Most times there were no restrooms in the station, just an out house (which may have been restricted to white patrons only, I'm not sure).

After these legalized outrages were removed, the former colored waiting rooms were used for storage, often by the signal department.

Tim Rumph
Lancaster, SC




















































John Stewart
 

HI Ike

 

The social justice aspects of rail and industrial history are a wide field, and one that I personally leave to others (for which I am occasionally criticized mightily).  But nevertheless I leave that to others, unless it is important to the item I am researching… (my judgement).

 

I am more of a “plant and methods” amateur historian, related to mostly Birmingham Industrial District rail and industrial history.  Lord knows there is a lot of social history in the Birmingham District, but I let others worry about it…

 

Just an observation.

 

John

 

John R Stewart

www.bhamrails.info

205-901-3790

 

image004

 

From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io [mailto:main@SouthernRailway.groups.io] On Behalf Of George Eichelberger
Sent: Friday, September 4, 2020 1:58 PM
To: main@southernrailway.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Southern segregation question in 1946

 

John:

 

There is an entire “story” about this. My interest is simply in “straight down the middle” history and I’d like to see more published on this topic published in a straightforward way

 

There are a group of, usually handwritten, notes in the archives where Conductors (who would be “white” in the era we are talking about) wrote SR management about how they thought it was wrong for them, to have to go through a train, find “colored” passengers and tell them they had to move to a segregated car as the train approached a State line where Jim Crow laws were in effect. Their concern was simply they were “good customers” deserving better treatment, not that they were making a point.

 

The last place where this occurred (to my limited knowledge) was on trains going from NC and DC into VA.

 

Ike

 

PS I have received a remarkable number of inquiries over the years where people, usually writing books, asked about segregated Pullman facilities, usually to describe how blacks could not ride in them. I heard everything from disbelief to outright consternation when I wrote that Pullmans were NOT segregated. Anyone who could pay for a ticket could book whatever Pullman space they wanted.

 

 

On Sep 4, 2020, at 11:32 AM, John Stewart <jstew@...> wrote:

 

HI Ike

 

Sad but interesting.  

 

I never thought about how segregated facilities cost businesses money

 

John

 

John R Stewart

205-901-3790

 

<image001.jpg>

 

From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io [mailto:main@SouthernRailway.groups.io] On Behalf Of George Eichelberger
Sent: Thursday, September 3, 2020 8:28 PM
To: main@southernrailway.groups.io
Subject: [SouthernRailway] Southern segregation question in 1946

 

Contrary to what many people might assume, the Southern did not like how “Jim Crow” laws effected their passenger operations and equipment designs. There are multiple memos and letters in the Southern Presidents’ and passenger car files on the subject. (The Southern held up the construction of Washington Union Station because the plans did not include a washroom for its “colored” Firemen…a story for another day…)

 

The attached memo from Harry DeButts was written as the Southern was just beginning its post-war lightweight passenger car programs.

 

Ike

 

<image002.jpg>