locked Timetable and Orders Questions


Daniel Bourque
 

I've never been a real railroader, so I was hoping some of you with more up-close experience with the Southern could help me understand a few operational details about train orders and timetable movements on the Southern. 
  1. For stations/depots where orders were handed to crews en route, was there always a signaling device to tell the crew to either stop or slow and prepare to receive orders? If so, was this usually a semaphore on the Southern? What else might be used?
  2. Would trains on the timetable (and running in accordance with the timetable) also need train orders (Form 19 or Form 31) for their train? The timetable states crews must have a "clearance card," but it doesn't talk specifically about orders.
  3. For branches where the timetable stops mid-branch, would a crew need orders to proceed beyond the last timetable station? 
  4. Would a scheduled train run "extra" beyond the timetable end-point, or would it keep its timetable designation?
  5. For trains that were out-and-backs with 2 train designations in the timetable (one for each direction), when would they change designations for the scenario above where the work goes beyond the last station in the timetable? Once they started working back, or once they were ready to proceed again on the timetable?
  6. For trains that were out-and-backs, was it common to receive all orders necessary before departing their point of origin, or would they more commonly receive just outbound orders first and then return orders later?
For context, I'm interested in the Southern's St Charles Branch (Virginia coal fields) in the '60s and '70s. The Southern had two trains on the timetable between Andover and St Charles, Southern trains 60/61 over the whole branch (second class, aka St Charles Local), and L&N 825/826 from L&N Jct to St Charles (third class, aka Cumberland Valley Local). Multiple branches ran railroad-west of St Charles and were worked by both trains (or in busier times, a St Charles based mine run that ran extra as far as I can tell). The Southern stationed an operator at St Charles, and I've found multiple pictures of the operator handing orders to both Southern and L&N crews (must have been Form 19s delivered on-the-fly). I'm trying to get a feel for how these orders might have looked and how the Southern handled the trains west of St Charles on the coal branches, especially since the multiple branches would have them running west, then back east, then west again on a different branch, then back east, then finally heading home per the timetable.

If you haven't guessed, yes, I'm trying to model this operation, but I believe this is a much better question for those with knowledge of the real railroad than the modelers list. Thanks for any insight you can provide!

Dan Bourque


Carl Ardrey
 


On 01/12/2022 1:22 PM Daniel Bourque <deltabourque@...> wrote:


I've never been a real railroader, so I was hoping some of you with more up-close experience with the Southern could help me understand a few operational details about train orders and timetable movements on the Southern. 
  1. For stations/depots where orders were handed to crews en route, was there always a signaling device to tell the crew to either stop or slow and prepare to receive orders? If so, was this usually a semaphore on the Southern? What else might be used?  Majority were semaphore.  There were some color light later that had "TO" on a yellow disk to designate a train order signal. 
  2. Would trains on the timetable (and running in accordance with the timetable) also need train orders (Form 19 or Form 31) for their train? The timetable states crews must have a "clearance card," but it doesn't talk specifically about orders. Clearance card would designate # of train orders.  It might be possible to run strictly on schedule, but normally there would be slow orders, bad footing, etc. orders.
  3. For branches where the timetable stops mid-branch, would a crew need orders to proceed beyond the last timetable station?  Yes, and if schedule ended at that point would need to run as an extra.
  4. Would a scheduled train run "extra" beyond the timetable end-point, or would it keep its timetable designation? Extra-engine #-direction
  5. For trains that were out-and-backs with 2 train designations in the timetable (one for each direction), when would they change designations for the scenario above where the work goes beyond the last station in the timetable? Changed designation when changed direction.  Once they started working back, or once they were ready to proceed again on the timetable?  Yes, if return schedule was still in effect.  Schedules were only effective for 12 hours past schedule time.
  6. For trains that were out-and-backs, was it common to receive all orders necessary before departing their point of origin, or would they more commonly receive just outbound orders first and then return orders later? Yes, since open train order offices were few and far between and little change would be required.
For context, I'm interested in the Southern's St Charles Branch (Virginia coal fields) in the '60s and '70s. The Southern had two trains on the timetable between Andover and St Charles, Southern trains 60/61 over the whole branch (second class, aka St Charles Local), and L&N 825/826 from L&N Jct to St Charles (third class, aka Cumberland Valley Local). Multiple branches ran railroad-west of St Charles and were worked by both trains (or in busier times, a St Charles based mine run that ran extra as far as I can tell). The Southern stationed an operator at St Charles, and I've found multiple pictures of the operator handing orders to both Southern and L&N crews (must have been Form 19s delivered on-the-fly). I'm trying to get a feel for how these orders might have looked and how the Southern handled the trains west of St Charles on the coal branches, especially since the multiple branches would have them running west, then back east, then west again on a different branch, then back east, then finally heading home per the timetable.

If you haven't guessed, yes, I'm trying to model this operation, but I believe this is a much better question for those with knowledge of the real railroad than the modelers list. Thanks for any insight you can provide!

Dan Bourque


Kyle Shannon
 

Hi Dan,

I’m not sure if Ron Flanary is on this list, but that area was his stomping grounds in that timeframe. You should try and reach out to him and make a contact. From what he’s posted on Facebook and elsewhere, I’m sure he’d be a great resource for definitely photos if not also the operations at this time.

We also have some relevant photos and timetables at the archive (and probably many other documents that I’m not aware of). I know there wasn’t much in this dataset, but I did sort out Oscar Kimsey’s location photos for the Appalachia Division within the last week or two.

Regarding your questions, I’m only able to provide a bit of the answer for the first one. Being that a manned station (should generally always be a timetable location) would generally always from my understanding have a train order signal, usually a semaphore style, but I have seen photos (can’t recall if it was on the Southern or another railroad) of a searchlight in use in its place.

Kyle




On Wednesday, January 12, 2022, 2:22 PM, Daniel Bourque <deltabourque@...> wrote:

I've never been a real railroader, so I was hoping some of you with more up-close experience with the Southern could help me understand a few operational details about train orders and timetable movements on the Southern. 
  1. For stations/depots where orders were handed to crews en route, was there always a signaling device to tell the crew to either stop or slow and prepare to receive orders? If so, was this usually a semaphore on the Southern? What else might be used?
  2. Would trains on the timetable (and running in accordance with the timetable) also need train orders (Form 19 or Form 31) for their train? The timetable states crews must have a "clearance card," but it doesn't talk specifically about orders.
  3. For branches where the timetable stops mid-branch, would a crew need orders to proceed beyond the last timetable station? 
  4. Would a scheduled train run "extra" beyond the timetable end-point, or would it keep its timetable designation?
  5. For trains that were out-and-backs with 2 train designations in the timetable (one for each direction), when would they change designations for the scenario above where the work goes beyond the last station in the timetable? Once they started working back, or once they were ready to proceed again on the timetable?
  6. For trains that were out-and-backs, was it common to receive all orders necessary before departing their point of origin, or would they more commonly receive just outbound orders first and then return orders later?
For context, I'm interested in the Southern's St Charles Branch (Virginia coal fields) in the '60s and '70s. The Southern had two trains on the timetable between Andover and St Charles, Southern trains 60/61 over the whole branch (second class, aka St Charles Local), and L&N 825/826 from L&N Jct to St Charles (third class, aka Cumberland Valley Local). Multiple branches ran railroad-west of St Charles and were worked by both trains (or in busier times, a St Charles based mine run that ran extra as far as I can tell). The Southern stationed an operator at St Charles, and I've found multiple pictures of the operator handing orders to both Southern and L&N crews (must have been Form 19s delivered on-the-fly). I'm trying to get a feel for how these orders might have looked and how the Southern handled the trains west of St Charles on the coal branches, especially since the multiple branches would have them running west, then back east, then west again on a different branch, then back east, then finally heading home per the timetable.

If you haven't guessed, yes, I'm trying to model this operation, but I believe this is a much better question for those with knowledge of the real railroad than the modelers list. Thanks for any insight you can provide!

Dan Bourque


Daniel Bourque
 

Carl, Kyle,

 

Thank you so much for this information! It helps me understand much better how things would run.

 

Dan

 

Sent from Mail for Windows

 

From: CARL ARDREY
Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2022 12:49 PM
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io; Daniel Bourque; SouthernRailway@groups.io
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Timetable and Orders Questions

 

 

On 01/12/2022 1:22 PM Daniel Bourque <deltabourque@...> wrote:

 

 

I've never been a real railroader, so I was hoping some of you with more up-close experience with the Southern could help me understand a few operational details about train orders and timetable movements on the Southern. 

  1. For stations/depots where orders were handed to crews en route, was there always a signaling device to tell the crew to either stop or slow and prepare to receive orders? If so, was this usually a semaphore on the Southern? What else might be used?  Majority were semaphore.  There were some color light later that had "TO" on a yellow disk to designate a train order signal. 
  2. Would trains on the timetable (and running in accordance with the timetable) also need train orders (Form 19 or Form 31) for their train? The timetable states crews must have a "clearance card," but it doesn't talk specifically about orders. Clearance card would designate # of train orders.  It might be possible to run strictly on schedule, but normally there would be slow orders, bad footing, etc. orders.
  3. For branches where the timetable stops mid-branch, would a crew need orders to proceed beyond the last timetable station?  Yes, and if schedule ended at that point would need to run as an extra.
  4. Would a scheduled train run "extra" beyond the timetable end-point, or would it keep its timetable designation? Extra-engine #-direction
  5. For trains that were out-and-backs with 2 train designations in the timetable (one for each direction), when would they change designations for the scenario above where the work goes beyond the last station in the timetable? Changed designation when changed direction.  Once they started working back, or once they were ready to proceed again on the timetable?  Yes, if return schedule was still in effect.  Schedules were only effective for 12 hours past schedule time.
  6. For trains that were out-and-backs, was it common to receive all orders necessary before departing their point of origin, or would they more commonly receive just outbound orders first and then return orders later? Yes, since open train order offices were few and far between and little change would be required.

For context, I'm interested in the Southern's St Charles Branch (Virginia coal fields) in the '60s and '70s. The Southern had two trains on the timetable between Andover and St Charles, Southern trains 60/61 over the whole branch (second class, aka St Charles Local), and L&N 825/826 from L&N Jct to St Charles (third class, aka Cumberland Valley Local). Multiple branches ran railroad-west of St Charles and were worked by both trains (or in busier times, a St Charles based mine run that ran extra as far as I can tell). The Southern stationed an operator at St Charles, and I've found multiple pictures of the operator handing orders to both Southern and L&N crews (must have been Form 19s delivered on-the-fly). I'm trying to get a feel for how these orders might have looked and how the Southern handled the trains west of St Charles on the coal branches, especially since the multiple branches would have them running west, then back east, then west again on a different branch, then back east, then finally heading home per the timetable.

 

If you haven't guessed, yes, I'm trying to model this operation, but I believe this is a much better question for those with knowledge of the real railroad than the modelers list. Thanks for any insight you can provide!

 

Dan Bourque

 

 


George Courtney
 

Dan,

    It is era dependent. There is another IO Group entitled A forum to discuss railway operations.  I'd search for Dave Husman.  He worked for the Union Pacific and worked up into high mangement.  I've found him useful for such questions.  From reading him, I know every train during TT/TO years had a clearance car.  But I'm not sure when Southern, or Norfolk Southern went to track warrants instead.  I love that high bridge running into a tunnel the L&N makes just before entering Southern Trackage.  And I think you can see the Indian Head Rock from that bridge. For sure I'd look up the Operations Group on IO.

George Courtney