locked Today's Question


George Eichelberger
 

Two questions for the attached drawing…

A.) why would the Southern have such a facility?

B.) how many were there and where were they?

Ike


Kevin Centers
 

Livestock deaths?

On Oct 29, 2021, at 3:15 PM, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:

 Two questions for the attached drawing…

A.) why would the Southern have such a facility?

B.) how many were there and where were they?

Ike


Dave Queener
 

Diversification into the funeral industry?

DQ

On 10/29/2021 3:15 PM, George Eichelberger wrote:
Two questions for the attached drawing…

A.) why would the Southern have such a facility?

B.) how many were there and where were they?

Ike

-- 
Owner, Cumberland Model Engineering
www.CumberlandModelEngineering.com  (865) 333-5712

Pastor, St. Paul Presbyterian Church
www.StPaulPres.com  (865) 209-5654

Virus-free. www.avg.com


Kevin Centers
 

Southern Railway-we’ll be the last friends to let you down?

On Oct 29, 2021, at 3:15 PM, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:

 Two questions for the attached drawing…

A.) why would the Southern have such a facility?

B.) how many were there and where were they?

Ike


C J Wyatt
 

Perhaps for animals killed by its trains.

Jack Wyatt

On Friday, October 29, 2021, 03:15:53 PM EDT, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:


Two questions for the attached drawing…

A.) why would the Southern have such a facility?

B.) how many were there and where were they?

Ike


Robert Hanson
 

Southern Railway - Service You Can't Refuse


-----Original Message-----
From: George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...>
To: main@southernrailway.groups.io <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io>
Sent: Fri, Oct 29, 2021 3:15 pm
Subject: [SouthernRailway] Today's Question

Two questions for the attached drawing…

A.) why would the Southern have such a facility?

B.) how many were there and where were they?

Ike


Charles Powell
 

Looks like the drawing dates to the 1890s. Railroads hauled a lot of livestock in those days and eventually those stock cars would end up with a lot of you know what on the floors. Maybe this was where the livestock waste was disposed? Just guessing. I looked in online dictionaries to see if crematory or cremation had earlier uses and most places defined them connected with disposal of bodies. One of the sites did show cremate as a synonym for incineration in general. 

Charlie Powell


Bill Schafer
 

Livestock deaths in transit were not unusual, especially before federal regulations specifying that livestock be rested and watered every 28 hours. At major yards my guess is that it would have been the practice to cull dead animals from the stock cars en route. Livestock movements were frequently (usually? always?) accompanied by drovers, whose job was to make sure the animals were cared for and if they weren’t, to be able to tell the owners how and why any of the stock perished so claims could be lodged against the carriers. Much of this information comes from an excellent exhibit on livestock transportation at the Illinois Railway Museum in Union, Ill. The exhibit is in an ATSF stock car. 

Disposing of the manure that would have accumulated may have been the job of the drovers; if there was enough bedding in the cars, maybe it wasn’t cleaned out at all. Regardless, I doubt if the railroad would have gone to the expense of incinerating it. Back at the turn of the 19th-20th century, most Americans lived in the country or small towns, so piles of manure here and there would have been no big deal. In my time, I’m remembering how the railroad used to dispose of the residue from cleaned out boxcars - before the days of eco-sensitivity, it was just amassed in a big pile somewhere. 

Dead animals are different, though. They attract scavengers, pests and disease, and even 120 years ago, dead animals were moved from where people lived and worked. The most efficient method of disposal would be cremation, I would think, if a rendering company was not nearby. Death could have been caused by trampling, train handling, disease, accidents, starvation/thirst, . . . any number of reasons. Hence, the crematorium. 

Much of the above is a hunch - I grew up on a farm around large animals that once in a while died. If that happened, we called a knacker who worked for the Leidy chemical company, who would winch the carcass onto a flatbed truck and haul it off to the rendering plant. There, the body would be “rendered” and many parts of the animal salvaged. Southern may have cremated the animals because no rendering plants were in the vicinity. It would be interesting to find a reference that lists where the crematoriums were on the Southern. Would Spencer be the only location, systemwide? 

—Bill







On Oct 29, 2021, at 17:09, Charles Powell <charlesspowell@...> wrote:

Looks like the drawing dates to the 1890s. Railroads hauled a lot of livestock in those days and eventually those stock cars would end up with a lot of you know what on the floors. Maybe this was where the livestock waste was disposed? Just guessing. I looked in online dictionaries to see if crematory or cremation had earlier uses and most places defined them connected with disposal of bodies. One of the sites did show cremate as a synonym for incineration in general. 

Charlie Powell


George Eichelberger
 

Bill and All:

So far, I think I have identified crematoriums at major livestock in-transit feed and watering points: in addition to Spencer…John Sevier in Knoxville and Atlanta.

Nothing (so far) at Birmingham or any of the Southern “gateway” terminals; NOLA, Jacksonville, Cincinnati, Louisville or Portsmouth. A review of the ICC filings for all of those locations might provide specific information. Although I have never seen a comprehensive list, I have been surprised at how many cities, towns and small towns had stock loading facilities. Moving cattle, sheep, hogs, horses and mules was big business for the Southern even considering that animal deaths in-transit were a significant claim expense. There are letters and telegrams in the Presidents’ files that discuss the need for more inspection of animals before they were loaded because shippers would load sick animals knowing they would probably not survive the trip and would be paid for by the railroad.

Large shipments of horses and mules were common until the early 1920s, most went to Pinners point for export to Spain or Germany although loads also were interchanged at Pot Yard for ports farther north. (note the attached 10-11-1921 telegram to Fairfax Harrison from E.L. Gatewood. Gatewood apparently “sold” himself as an expert on shipping animals, FFH made him “Executive General Agent” for livestock marketing.) The loads of mules typically came from, or through, St. Louis.

The archives contain a number of photos of livestock facilities and a few drawings. I’m sure the subject is “new” to almost every one so research and a TIES article are open to anyone interested.

Ike

PS An oddity about Southern stock cars I do not understand….when “DWB” was President, the newest group of Southern stock cars were ready for retirement, possibly to be rebuilt as box cars. We have a memo from Brosnan saying he expected the business to increase and none of the cars were to be scrapped. Nothing else has been found that explains what he had in mind? (BTW…Of course, the SRHA archives contain original linen drawings of every (!) Southern stock car. A “mystery” (to me anyway) is that at least one group of drawings is labeled “horse and mule car” but I can not find any differences between them and standard “stock” cars. (Although I guess chickens could be call “stock”, I have not included them here, we have multiple classes of “poultry cars=“ drawings.)

PPS I thought the “crematoriums” topic may be of interest to the list. Let me know if there is interest in the “odd and unusual” material in the archives. When we start to publish the “Southern News Bulletin” the months TIES is not published we will include this type of material…but it will only go to SRHA members!


On Oct 29, 2021, at 9:32 PM, Bill Schafer <bill4501@...> wrote:

Livestock deaths in transit were not unusual, especially before federal regulations specifying that livestock be rested and watered every 28 hours. At major yards my guess is that it would have been the practice to cull dead animals from the stock cars en route. Livestock movements were frequently (usually? always?) accompanied by drovers, whose job was to make sure the animals were cared for and if they weren’t, to be able to tell the owners how and why any of the stock perished so claims could be lodged against the carriers. Much of this information comes from an excellent exhibit on livestock transportation at the Illinois Railway Museum in Union, Ill. The exhibit is in an ATSF stock car. 

Disposing of the manure that would have accumulated may have been the job of the drovers; if there was enough bedding in the cars, maybe it wasn’t cleaned out at all. Regardless, I doubt if the railroad would have gone to the expense of incinerating it. Back at the turn of the 19th-20th century, most Americans lived in the country or small towns, so piles of manure here and there would have been no big deal. In my time, I’m remembering how the railroad used to dispose of the residue from cleaned out boxcars - before the days of eco-sensitivity, it was just amassed in a big pile somewhere. 

Dead animals are different, though. They attract scavengers, pests and disease, and even 120 years ago, dead animals were moved from where people lived and worked. The most efficient method of disposal would be cremation, I would think, if a rendering company was not nearby. Death could have been caused by trampling, train handling, disease, accidents, starvation/thirst, . . . any number of reasons. Hence, the crematorium. 

Much of the above is a hunch - I grew up on a farm around large animals that once in a while died. If that happened, we called a knacker who worked for the Leidy chemical company, who would winch the carcass onto a flatbed truck and haul it off to the rendering plant. There, the body would be “rendered” and many parts of the animal salvaged. Southern may have cremated the animals because no rendering plants were in the vicinity. It would be interesting to find a reference that lists where the crematoriums were on the Southern. Would Spencer be the only location, systemwide? 

—Bill







On Oct 29, 2021, at 17:09, Charles Powell <charlesspowell@...> wrote:

Looks like the drawing dates to the 1890s. Railroads hauled a lot of livestock in those days and eventually those stock cars would end up with a lot of you know what on the floors. Maybe this was where the livestock waste was disposed? Just guessing. I looked in online dictionaries to see if crematory or cremation had earlier uses and most places defined them connected with disposal of bodies. One of the sites did show cremate as a synonym for incineration in general. 

Charlie Powell



Allen Cain
 

Interesting that there are steam coils on the left side of the building layout view.  Could this have been an early "co-generation" tool to recover some of the waste heat from the burning of whatever was being burned?  Not enough resolution to make out some of the details.
--
Allen Cain
Modeling the Southern in 1955 in HO Scale