Topics

locked Turntables


Allen Cain
 

Still looking for any info on the Southern Turntables, specifically lengths at the various sites.  And additional info would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Allen Cain


Warren Stephens
 

Allen, did Southern publish an “official list”. CofG did and it is full of miscellaneous info like turntable locations and specs. Who was Depot agent at various stations etc. If they did and you can get your hands on a copy for the era you are interested in you will be all set. 

Warren D. Stephens 
CofG and TA&G fan


On Sep 25, 2020, at 4:43 PM, Allen Cain <Allencaintn@...> wrote:

Still looking for any info on the Southern Turntables, specifically lengths at the various sites.  And additional info would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Allen Cain


Allen Cain
 

Warren,

That would be great info but so far after posting this request twice no one had responded other than you.  As folks are generally very helpful, I must assume that no one has any info on Southern Turntable lengths, not even the one still in service in Spencer at the NCTM?

Perhaps some info will be forthcoming yet.

Allen Cain


Bill Schafer
 

Hi, Allen,

I’m not aware of any single reference that lists all the Southern Railway turntables together, nor am I aware of anyone who has made the effort to make a compilation of them. I just checked the 1912 Southern Railway station list which lists the presence of turntables but does not specify their length. The mechanical or B&B departments may have had such a list but one hasn’t surfaced yet as far as I know. 

In the SRHA Archives in Chattanooga, there are a lot of ICC records that list facilities at various locations. My understanding is that it lists turntables, but again, I’m not sure it specifies length. 

If you are interested in a specific line of the Southern and you know what classes of steam locomotives were operated over the line, you might get a pretty good idea of the length of the turntables available to turn them. I would think it unlikely that SOU would run an engine to the end of a branch if it couldn’t be turned on the turntable there unless there also was a wye. 

The largest Southern turntable I’m aware of is the 110’ turntable that was at Pegram Shop, Atlanta, which arguably would have to have been long enough to turn Southern’s longest locomotives, which I would guess were the 2-8-8-2s. According to Prince, they were 99’ plus a few inches long. That turntable now belongs to TVRM and is stored in Chattanooga.

Hope this helps.

—Bill

On Sep 26, 2020, at 16:49, Allen Cain <Allencaintn@...> wrote:

Warren,

That would be great info but so far after posting this request twice no one had responded other than you.  As folks are generally very helpful, I must assume that no one has any info on Southern Turntable lengths, not even the one still in service in Spencer at the NCTM?

Perhaps some info will be forthcoming yet.

Allen Cain


William L Vanderburg
 

The one in Spencer is 100 feet long. 

Will V.  

On Sat, Sep 26, 2020 at 4:49 PM Allen Cain <Allencaintn@...> wrote:
Warren,

That would be great info but so far after posting this request twice no one had responded other than you.  As folks are generally very helpful, I must assume that no one has any info on Southern Turntable lengths, not even the one still in service in Spencer at the NCTM?

Perhaps some info will be forthcoming yet.

Allen Cain











Sam Smith
 

Allen, Warren, et al,

I can't say specifically for the Southern, but, I do know that some railroads specified lengths of turntables in their annual financial statements if a table was installed or replaced during the fiscal year. A gentleman in the C. of G. Facebook page has been posting summaries of the C. of G. statements over the last few weeks. As mentioned above, there have been several mentions of new/replacement turntables and lengths were given. If you can get access to them, it might be worth the time to skim through the Southern's statement's from the time period.

Samuel Smith


On Sat, Sep 26, 2020 at 5:25 PM, William L Vanderburg
<Army30th@...> wrote:
The one in Spencer is 100 feet long. 

Will V.  

On Sat, Sep 26, 2020 at 4:49 PM Allen Cain <Allencaintn@...> wrote:
Warren,

That would be great info but so far after posting this request twice no one had responded other than you.  As folks are generally very helpful, I must assume that no one has any info on Southern Turntable lengths, not even the one still in service in Spencer at the NCTM?

Perhaps some info will be forthcoming yet.

Allen Cain











A&Y Dave in MD
 

Allen,

I have had my NARA visits suspended due to the pandemic closing the building.  However, the ICC Valuation records has details about turntables, bridges, trestles, sidings...all the infrastructure you could want, although focused on the period from WWI to 1931 or so.  It could take a while to go through all the documents to find it.  I'm sure the SRHA has this information too, and probably updates through to 1953, but it's much harder for me to travel to Chattanooga.  

As you know, I've only been focused on the A&Y and here's an example of what I've collected by scanning documents into PDF and then summarizing the info in Excel:

Val Sec. MP Kind of Structure Name Location Description Size Box Notebook Page Sheet source PDF Page
27
CF 029.6
Turntable
Rural Hall Built by Philadelphia Br. Works (patent Jan 1887)
59'-03"
3386 Bridge 14 1 of 1 NARA-ICC-Box-3386-bridges-V27.pdf 34
27a
SM 011.3
Turntable
Built by Wm. Sellers, Philadelphia, cast iron deck girders
49'-05"
3386 Bridge 5 1 of 1 NARA-ICC-Box-3386-bridges-V27.pdf 102
27b
CR 018.1
Turntable Ramseur
Built by Detroit Br & Iron Wks in 1893
55'-00"
3386 Bridge 5 1 of 1 NARA-ICC-Box-3386-bridges-V27.pdf 111
Obviously these are not representative of the Southern, since the A&Y was a short line with relatively light rail allowing only consolidations and lighter engines (there is evidence that they tried using the Greensboro 0-8-0 to switch the Furnace Branch of the A&Y and it was too heavy and derailed by spread the rails apart).  So there was no need for long turntables.

The "name" and the "location" are separate fields in the ICC records, and aren't always filled in, but the milepost is specific. So I know that the turntable on the second row was on the Madison branch (SM) at 11.3, which is near the end of the branch, so it was in Madison.  That line was abandoned in the 30s, so I don't know if it was active.  These all came from the "bridges" engineering notebook.  Most of the documents are focused on valuation, e.g., current value, replacement costs, etc.  But to do that valuation, they listed the important characteristics (see Description category).  The bridge info is even more extensive, usually listing the number of type of spans, the material for the foundations, the deck materials, whether there were fire buckets (for wooden bridges/trestles) and other interesting details.

The info is out there, but it is a lot of work to find it. A typical 'experienced' researcher for hire at NARA is about $20/hour--and that is cheap because they are usually grad students and retired individuals with an interest. But given I have spent around 6 hours a day for about 20 days (over 2 years) to get the A&Y info scanned that would be pricey.  I don't put a price on the info, but the work to get it does have a cost. Of course, I find the research fun too, so that's another reason to go myself. When NARA opens again, I'll be visiting, usually once, sometimes twice, a month on my Friday flex days. I've only got 15 years of annual reports to cover all the A&Y documentation there is to scan and that should take me two more visits. I then need to get the microfilmed reports prior to 1916. After which I will be turning to other parts of the Southern, like the Winston-Salem division, as my interests expand.

Dave Bott

Saturday, September 26, 2020, 4:49:03 PM, you wrote:


Warren,

That would be great info but so far after posting this request twice no one had responded other than you.  As folks are generally very helpful, I must assume that no one has any info on Southern Turntable lengths, not even the one still in service in Spencer at the NCTM?

Perhaps some info will be forthcoming yet.

Allen Cain



--
David Bott

Sent from David Bott's desktop PC


George Eichelberger
 

In addition to all/most of the ICC  Valuation sheets from the initial work 1916-1926 or thereabouts, the SRHA archives include a great many of the bi-annual updates into the early 1960s, probably to the point when the ICC did not require paper copies.

Someone with a particular interest in bridges, buildings, turntables, whatever, is welcome to go to the archives to research their favorite topic but plan on taking considerable time if you want to go through all of the summaries and updates. (You can help produce a complete inventory by Val Section.)

I have looked through maybe 100 scanned pages and note two things about turntables on the SRS…..their length in feet is not included in what I have found and …..there are a surprisingly small number, usually at locations we would think of as a Division point or large terminal.

Ike

PS If you haven’t read it, check out Dave Botts TIES article on the Spanish Flu pandemic of 1918. Then, absent Federal guidelines (!), individual railroads, municipalities and states made up their own travel and embargo rules. The Southern published multiple Bulletins (Dave’s article include several examples) describing which passenger trains did not operate, towns that would not allow passengers from certain points to get off trains, etc. Check the GRAB for back issue sales.



On Sep 28, 2020, at 10:48 AM, A&Y Dave in MD <dbott@...> wrote:

Allen,

I have had my NARA visits suspended due to the pandemic closing the building.  However, the ICC Valuation records has details about turntables, bridges, trestles, sidings...all the infrastructure you could want, although focused on the period from WWI to 1931 or so.  It could take a while to go through all the documents to find it.  I'm sure the SRHA has this information too, and probably updates through to 1953, but it's much harder for me to travel to Chattanooga.  

As you know, I've only been focused on the A&Y and here's an example of what I've collected by scanning documents into PDF and then summarizing the info in Excel:

Val Sec. MP Kind of Structure Name Location Description Size Box Notebook Page Sheet source PDF Page
27
CF 029.6
Turntable
Rural Hall Built by Philadelphia Br. Works (patent Jan 1887)
59'-03"
3386 Bridge 14 1 of 1 NARA-ICC-Box-3386-bridges-V27.pdf 34
27a
SM 011.3
Turntable
Built by Wm. Sellers, Philadelphia, cast iron deck girders
49'-05"
3386 Bridge 5 1 of 1 NARA-ICC-Box-3386-bridges-V27.pdf 102
27b
CR 018.1
Turntable Ramseur
Built by Detroit Br & Iron Wks in 1893
55'-00"
3386 Bridge 5 1 of 1 NARA-ICC-Box-3386-bridges-V27.pdf 111
Obviously these are not representative of the Southern, since the A&Y was a short line with relatively light rail allowing only consolidations and lighter engines (there is evidence that they tried using the Greensboro 0-8-0 to switch the Furnace Branch of the A&Y and it was too heavy and derailed by spread the rails apart).  So there was no need for long turntables.

The "name" and the "location" are separate fields in the ICC records, and aren't always filled in, but the milepost is specific. So I know that the turntable on the second row was on the Madison branch (SM) at 11.3, which is near the end of the branch, so it was in Madison.  That line was abandoned in the 30s, so I don't know if it was active.  These all came from the "bridges" engineering notebook.  Most of the documents are focused on valuation, e.g., current value, replacement costs, etc.  But to do that valuation, they listed the important characteristics (see Description category).  The bridge info is even more extensive, usually listing the number of type of spans, the material for the foundations, the deck materials, whether there were fire buckets (for wooden bridges/trestles) and other interesting details.

The info is out there, but it is a lot of work to find it. A typical 'experienced' researcher for hire at NARA is about $20/hour--and that is cheap because they are usually grad students and retired individuals with an interest. But given I have spent around 6 hours a day for about 20 days (over 2 years) to get the A&Y info scanned that would be pricey.  I don't put a price on the info, but the work to get it does have a cost. Of course, I find the research fun too, so that's another reason to go myself. When NARA opens again, I'll be visiting, usually once, sometimes twice, a month on my Friday flex days. I've only got 15 years of annual reports to cover all the A&Y documentation there is to scan and that should take me two more visits. I then need to get the microfilmed reports prior to 1916. After which I will be turning to other parts of the Southern, like the Winston-Salem division, as my interests expand.

Dave Bott

Saturday, September 26, 2020, 4:49:03 PM, you wrote:


Warren,

That would be great info but so far after posting this request twice no one had responded other than you.  As folks are generally very helpful, I must assume that no one has any info on Southern Turntable lengths, not even the one still in service in Spencer at the NCTM?

Perhaps some info will be forthcoming yet.

Allen Cain



--
David Bott

Sent from David Bott's desktop PC


A&Y Dave in MD
 

Following up on where the info was pulled.  Attached are extracted pages of the scanned ICC books.  The first page comes from Box 1162-V556 Case File B.  Case files are the section-wide  summaries of dollar valuations. There is no data on length or construction of items--just type and dollar values, but then you know the item exists.  The second page is from an engineer's clothbound handwritten standard form notebook on Bridges for Val section 27 contained within storage Box 3386.  This volume has engineer's notes documenting the details (see the form headers for length and MP location and the columns for details, even on the pit, deck, and drainage!).  Sometimes, the hand written entries are hard to read. Sometimes the entries in this type of book have photographs on the facing page.  The buildings version of this book set is where I scanned most of my A&Y station photos on my web site.  

In NARA, the bridges book is listed with other bridges books for other railroads, usually in alphabetical order and submitted in the same year.  The boxes containing items for the same valuation sections are scattered in different boxes throughout the archives.   It can be interesting, but distracting to get a box and find info on the Alabama, Birmingham & Coast Railroad for example!  At least in the SRHA Archives, you find more info on the Southern, even if it is still just as distracting.   :-)

Best,

Dave

Monday, September 28, 2020, 10:48:14 AM, you wrote:


Allen,

I have had my NARA visits suspended due to the pandemic closing the building.  However, the ICC Valuation records has details about turntables, bridges, trestles, sidings...all the infrastructure you could want, although focused on the period from WWI to 1931 or so.  It could take a while to go through all the documents to find it.  I'm sure the SRHA has this information too, and probably updates through to 1953, but it's much harder for me to travel to Chattanooga.  

As you know, I've only been focused on the A&Y and here's an example of what I've collected by scanning documents into PDF and then summarizing the info in Excel:

Val Sec. MP Kind of Structure Name Location Description Size Box Notebook Page Sheet source PDF Page
27
CF 029.6
Turntable
Rural Hall Built by Philadelphia Br. Works (patent Jan 1887)
59'-03"
3386 Bridge 14 1 of 1 NARA-ICC-Box-3386-bridges-V27.pdf 34
27a
SM 011.3
Turntable

Built by Wm. Sellers, Philadelphia, cast iron deck girders
49'-05"
3386 Bridge 5 1 of 1 NARA-ICC-Box-3386-bridges-V27.pdf 102
27b
CR 018.1
Turntable Ramseur
Built by Detroit Br & Iron Wks in 1893
55'-00"
3386 Bridge 5 1 of 1 NARA-ICC-Box-3386-bridges-V27.pdf 111
Obviously these are not representative of the Southern, since the A&Y was a short line with relatively light rail allowing only consolidations and lighter engines (there is evidence that they tried using the Greensboro 0-8-0 to switch the Furnace Branch of the A&Y and it was too heavy and derailed by spread the rails apart).  So there was no need for long turntables.

The "name" and the "location" are separate fields in the ICC records, and aren't always filled in, but the milepost is specific. So I know that the turntable on the second row was on the Madison branch (SM) at 11.3, which is near the end of the branch, so it was in Madison.  That line was abandoned in the 30s, so I don't know if it was active.  These all came from the "bridges" engineering notebook.  Most of the documents are focused on valuation, e.g., current value, replacement costs, etc.  But to do that valuation, they listed the important characteristics (see Description category).  The bridge info is even more extensive, usually listing the number of type of spans, the material for the foundations, the deck materials, whether there were fire buckets (for wooden bridges/trestles) and other interesting details.

The info is out there, but it is a lot of work to find it. A typical 'experienced' researcher for hire at NARA is about $20/hour--and that is cheap because they are usually grad students and retired individuals with an interest. But given I have spent around 6 hours a day for about 20 days (over 2 years) to get the A&Y info scanned that would be pricey.  I don't put a price on the info, but the work to get it does have a cost. Of course, I find the research fun too, so that's another reason to go myself. When NARA opens again, I'll be visiting, usually once, sometimes twice, a month on my Friday flex days. I've only got 15 years of annual reports to cover all the A&Y documentation there is to scan and that should take me two more visits. I then need to get the microfilmed reports prior to 1916. After which I will be turning to other parts of the Southern, like the Winston-Salem division, as my interests expand.

Dave Bott

Saturday, September 26, 2020, 4:49:03 PM, you wrote:


Warren,

That would be great info but so far after posting this request twice no one had responded other than you.  As folks are generally very helpful, I must assume that no one has any info on Southern Turntable lengths, not even the one still in service in Spencer at the NCTM?

Perhaps some info will be forthcoming yet.

Allen Cain



--
David Bott

Sent from David Bott's desktop PC



--
David Bott

Sent from David Bott's desktop PC


C J Wyatt
 

Allen, the 1934 Atlanta Terminal Coordination Study shows a 100' turntable at Inman Yard. I believe that the Southern's coach yard at North Avenue also had a turntable, but I haven't found the length of it.

Jack Wyatt

On Friday, September 25, 2020, 05:48:00 PM EDT, Allen Cain <allencaintn@...> wrote:





Still looking for any info on the Southern Turntables, specifically lengths at the various sites.  And additional info would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Allen Cain


Steve Ellis
 

Where was the Atlanta terminal station located? Was it on Peachtree Street?

Steve Ellis
Brooklyn NY

On Oct 6, 2020, at 6:55 AM, C J Wyatt <cjwyatt@...> wrote:

Allen, the 1934 Atlanta Terminal Coordination Study shows a 100' turntable at Inman Yard. I believe that the Southern's coach yard at North Avenue also had a turntable, but I haven't found the length of it.

Jack Wyatt






On Friday, September 25, 2020, 05:48:00 PM EDT, Allen Cain <allencaintn@...> wrote:





Still looking for any info on the Southern Turntables, specifically lengths at the various sites. And additional info would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Allen Cain







Michael Roderick
 

Allen:

Do you have any other turntable lengths I'm looking for Ashville and any others along the line between Ashville and Spencer.

Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io> On Behalf Of C J Wyatt
Sent: Tuesday, October 6, 2020 06:53
To: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Turntables

Allen, the 1934 Atlanta Terminal Coordination Study shows a 100' turntable at Inman Yard. I believe that the Southern's coach yard at North Avenue also had a turntable, but I haven't found the length of it.

Jack Wyatt






On Friday, September 25, 2020, 05:48:00 PM EDT, Allen Cain <allencaintn@...> wrote:





Still looking for any info on the Southern Turntables, specifically lengths at the various sites.  And additional info would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Allen Cain